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This, is progress - Page 3

post #61 of 73
bklyn:

Lobby or strongarm what is the difference? Did he move ahead of others who were more competitive? Were all of the press reports innacurate?

My comments stand regarding my observations. Perhaps some of the NYSE groups are more organized. My point is that I feel sorry for these kids ...... AND ..... they would be more than welcome on/at the hill. I should have said, IF they feel excluded someday, will they blame their parents for the exclusion? Is there any prohibition against belonging to the Brotherhood and belonging on an organized team?

I have to wonder how an independent organization can survive without the support of hill management? Most hills don't want to give a square foot of snow to set a few training gates on weekends to the "in-house" programs. We have to fight for everything we get and are usually relegated to the crumbs. How can "freelance racers" train? You just can't bring your own poles and set up a course.
post #62 of 73
Here's a slightly different slant on equality or the lack thereof. This is by no means driven by either ethnic or economic backgrounds.

I'm speaking about the integration and acceptance of our remarkable disabled population. I have many friends, who are disabled. Some from birth, others from disease or serious accidents. How can they afford to ski or ride? Why do they percist to succeed against many barriers?

I'm sure that some affirmative action exists in some industries for these folks, but the diabled athletes that I ski with and try to keep up with are nothing short of outstanding, both as athletes and as individuals. They're as independent as their body or mind will allow them to be. They have hurdles in everything they do, every day. So how do they do it? It's quite simple-They are over achievers. They succeed because they can taste the fruits of their efforts. Nothing, short of success can slow them down or disuade their enthusiasm.

So why should we feel that those people of non-white ethnic origins need our help to ski or ride? My take is simple. If you want to do something bad enough you will find a way. Forced integration or for a better phrase "Affirmative Action",has rarely worked well and if those people in question are taking advantage of the situation simply because it's easy, instead of because they really desire a position in the ski industry, then we're all fooling ourselves. Long term integration in the ski industry will never retain the staying power, the city of Denver expects. I wish them well in their endeavor. I hope I'm around the ski industry long enough to see the outcome.

: : whtmt : :

[ September 16, 2002, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: whtmt ]
post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by whtmt:
I'm speaking about the integration and acceptance of our remarkable disabled population. I have many friends, who are disabled. Some from birth, others from disease or serious accidents. How can they afford to ski or ride? Why do they percist to succeed against many barriers?....
I must respond to this only because I just recently had a very similar thought.
Who has been dealt a more difficult situation in life than the physically disabled? Yet you rarely ever hear them complain.
You don't see them gathering together for the "million wheelchair march," with their spokesmen pounding their fists in front of the media complaining about how they've been given the short end of the stick, and on and on. And DEMANDING payment (retribution) for the sufferings of ancestors, while they suffer daily, in the present, and will never really have the opportunities that most minorities claim not to have (and I'm not saying that some don't).

They don't ask for much, except common access to public facilities, etc. There are exceptions on all sides, but in general it is truly remarkable how most handicapped persons take on the challenges they face without expecting special privleges. If they can achieve, so can those who'd rather blame their lack of accomplishment on society. I'm talking about now though, not 1962.

Just a general observation, so don't beat me to death over it. I'm sure somebody will find it offensive, but I don't mean to paint everybody with the same brush, as the saying goes.

There, now go ahead and have your way with me.
post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by Philth:

It's very interesting that the affirmative action practiced on behalf of the rich through the old boy network, legacies at colleges, fraternity connections, nepotism (see our prez for more on several of these), don't bother any of you, but a trivial city program that might benefit actual minorities does.
There is a lot of discrimination in our country, but most of it works to benefit those already in power.
I think you're right on the money Philth. One question I had, and I apologize if it's already been addressed in this thread, is why didn't the city of Denver make sure lots of minorities were hired when they owned the resort, or did they? It seems kind of hyprocritical for them to all of a sudden decide it would be good to promote minority hiring after they sell off the resort, doesn't it?
post #65 of 73
I was curious enough to look up the points for Andre Horton.

DH 40 (ranked 3rd of all those born in 79 and 7th of those born from 79-85)

SL 97

GS 68

SG 58

His SL, GS, and SG rankings are not good enough, but his ranking in DH is outstanding and is good enough for him to be on the Dev team. Everyone ranked higher than him is on either the B team or the Dev team. I'd say he earned his way onto the team.
post #66 of 73
If anybody here is wondering why their post(s) are missing, you can find a complete explanation Right Here (click)
post #67 of 73
The Denver Post article addresses diversity on two fronts - the consumers who patronize the resort and the employees and business owners that make a living there. My position is that the decision to ensure diversity at Winter Park is not in the spirit of altruism. It makes good economic sense for a resort to cater to families new to winter sports.

New skiers and boarders are more likely to buy a full priced lift ticket, rent equipment, take lessons, wear the latest Bogner, buy meals at the resort and shop at the resort shops. Experienced skiers have a different profile - they ski on a season pass or have access to discounted lift tickets, already own equipment, typically do not take lessons, patch their L.L.Bean and northface with duct tape, eat their packed from home lunches, and don't shop at the resort stores unless a buddy can get them a discount or there's a great end of season sale. (sterotypes - but bear with me)

Resorts need both types of consumers in order to survive but we should recognize that there is a distinct value in attracting new skiers and making them feel welcome. Is it savvy marketing or racism to presume that the non white population of Colorado is likely to fall into the new skier category? Maybe it is a little of both. I question the Denver city council's jurisdiction 67 miles outside of Denver but that's just me. Should the government be involved in determining what recreational activities are appropriate for anyone? No. Should the government ensure that every qualified person has fair and equal access to employment and business opportunities regardless of race/religion/creed? Yes, it's part of their job to uphold the law.

Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:
IF they feel excluded someday, will they blame their parents for the exclusion? Is there any prohibition against belonging to the Brotherhood and belonging on an organized team?
The NBS does not prohibit anyone from joining any other organization. Andre Horton also belongs to the Jackson Hole Ski Club. They had three members on the development team. Please point me toward any of the press reports you mention. I'm approaching this with an open mind - I'd just like to see some facts vs personal opinions. Take a second look at the post by WVSkier who took the time to look up the points standings for the team members.

Quote:
Originally posted by Carvemeister:

You don't see them gathering together for the "million wheelchair march," with their spokesmen pounding their fists in front of the media complaining about how they've been given the short end of the stick, and on and on. And DEMANDING payment (retribution) for the sufferings of ancestors, while they suffer daily, in the present, and will never really have the opportunities that most minorities claim not to have (and I'm not saying that some don't).
The NBS does not request government money to support athletes who dream to represent their country in the Olympics. They raise funds from their members.

Should Christopher Reeve demand payment for his ancestors? LOL! They weren't disabled. Apples and oranges don't look alike or taste the same - although they both grow on trees. These types of comparisons have little merit. I'd love to share some life experiences with you so that you could understand the complicated issue of race in this country from my perspective. If your interested we can talk off list.

In NYC we have the German Ski Club, Norway Ski Club, Swiss Ski Club, and two ski clubs that are predominantly African American. These groups may be predominately one race or ethnicity but I have always felt welcome at their events. People with similar interests will gather together. These are not political organizations - they're ski clubs, formed so that like minded people can meet, enjoy each others company and save a little money in the process. The Germans, Norweigans, and Swiss are proud of their heritage and wish to celebrate that common bond in their ski clubs - so do we. Their existence and names do not mean they exclude or dislike anyone.
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by bklyntrayc:
The Denver Post article addresses diversity on two fronts - the consumers who patronize the resort and the employees and business owners that make a living there. My position is that the decision to ensure diversity at Winter Park is not in the spirit of altruism. It makes good economic sense for a resort to cater to families new to winter sports.

.
Exactly! After all the hand wringing on various post on how to promote our sport I would have thought everyone would be applauding an attempt to attract new people to the hill.

bklyntrayc, welcome and thank you for your thoughts.
post #69 of 73
blkyntrayc: I believe the articles were in Ski Racing Magazine, however, there may have been a link to something like the Denver Post via this Epic site. They were not of overbearing importance to me at the time so I didn't cut & snip.

I have posted this as a question to SRM and hope they respond.

Regarding WV's post, the numbers in question are not those of the 2001-2002 season, but the prior season.

You will need to modify your profile photo. I saw no signs of duct tape ........ jacket was pretty darned new?????
post #70 of 73
Looks like the city is exercising their rights as the owner to have their agents run the business as the owner wants and within the laws of Colorado and the U.S. More importantly, the demographics would suggest that pursuing this market may very well pay off.
post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:

You will need to modify your profile photo. I saw no signs of duct tape ........ jacket was pretty darned new?????
The vest that came with it is torn and has some duct tape on it. My friends made me take off the vest and the helmet for the picture.
post #72 of 73
nice pic, where was it taken?
post #73 of 73
I believe the picture was taken in Snowmass off/going towards the Campground chair.
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