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This, is progress - Page 2

post #31 of 73
Yes, we had an initiative that passed by a strong majority that eliminated racial quotas in the state secondary education system.
I think the idea here is to have more latino (that's mainly what they seem to be focusing on) faces working at Winter Park so that they will be more comfortable visiting. Be honest, how many of you would be comfortable going skiing or working at a resort where 97% of the workers and skiers were latino? Nothing wrong with that, BTW.

Spanish speaking instuctors could do very well in the near future if this plan works.

[ September 13, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #32 of 73
If they did their jobs well, why should anyone care. But the real problem lies in the fact that ski areas pay so poorly. They can probably earn more in a government entitlement program. Which is why people stay in them forever.

But contrary to what a few misguded liberals would have people believe, this is why these programs are inherintly racist. Pay minoroties to stay out of white people's jobs! :
post #33 of 73
Originally posted by milesb:
... Be honest, how many of you would be comfortable going skiing or working at a resort where 97% of the workers and skiers were latino? Nothing wrong with that, BTW.
You really can't be serious. I'm not going to feel comfortable going skiing if a bunch of Latino guys are smacking the snow off of my chairlift?" I don't go to a particular ski resort because of ANYBODY that works there. I go to ski. When I have 1,500' of powder beneath my tips, I assure you, I'm not thinking about what color the dudes driving the snowcats are.
Honest Injun!!

That's the only thing that matters. If I get a good ski lesson, I don't care if it's from Dolly Parton or a freak, or...what the hell - maybe even Puff Daddy, OK? Well, maybe not him, but please, get real. This is all a bunch of yak poopoo.

BTW-I love my Wheaties too. If anybody's buying cereal for the picture on the box, they've got a problem. It's the contests on the back that you have to look for.

[ September 13, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Carvemeister ]
post #34 of 73
And speaking of tigers on cereal boxes:

A blonde calls her boyfriend and says, "Please come over here and help me...I have a killer jigsaw puzzle, and I can't figure out how to get it started." Her boyfriend asks, "What is it supposed to be when it's finished?" The blonde says, "According to the picture on
the box, it's a tiger." Her boyfriend decides to go over and help with the puzzle. She lets him in and shows him where she has the puzzle spread all over the table. He studies the pieces for a moment, then looks at the box, then turns to her and says, "First of all, no matter what we do, we're not going to be able to assemble
these pieces into anything resembling a tiger." He held her hand and said, "Second, I'd advise you to relax. Let's have a cup of coffee, then ..........." he sighed, "let's put all these Frosted Flakes back in the box."
post #35 of 73
Hello Epic Skiers,

Just want to let you in on some facts. Although I have volunteered for the NBS for many years and continue to do so, now, this should not be considered an official response.

The National Brotherhood of Skiers is the largest ski council in the nation. They also run the largest ski event in the world with upwards of 3000 attending every year (more than the Olympics I believe, but don't quote me on that).

The ski resorts know about us - they love to host our events and have been doing so with great success for the mountain as well as the participants. We have been to almost every resort you can name and are comprised of members from over 80 different ski clubs across the nation.

The NBS is 30 years old, we're members of the USSA and our members also came in #2 last season in the team standings in NASTAR. One of the young athletes, who trains with our support, has become a member of the US Olympic Alpine Development Team. Most of the kids who receive scholarships become great racers - all become wonderful adults through the positive experiences borne of healthy competition and disciplined training. Our flagship events raise money to offset the costs of equipment, traveling to races, and training for these young people. (Any parent with a promising racer in the family understands the financial and time commitment that parents must make to support a child's dream)

There are many qualified minority instructors, coaches, patrollers and those who wouldn't mind flipping burgers for a season pass - who do not need assistance gaining employment in the ski industry. I wouldn't suggest it as a career move - but as a side gig to support your hobby - why not?

I won't debate the politics of who can afford to ski, how hard you have to work for your living or what the government should do to attract minorities to resorts. I believe that their decision is less about charity and more about bottom line profits. The resorts have faced financial difficulty in recent years and are doing many things to increase skier visits. It's an economic decision to reach out to groups that may not traditionally participate in winter sports and get them to come to the mountains. Money is still green - no matter what color the hand that gives it to you.

On any given winter day there are skiers and boarders of every race and ethnicity on the slopes - maybe you missed us behind the goggles and ski masks. Next time you see one of us - let's enjoy a run together and a drink after the last chair shuts down. I guarantee you'll be buying the first round as I will beat you back to the base.
post #36 of 73
welcome! Its always nice to see people from my home town on this forum!
post #37 of 73
The City and County of Denver owns Winter Park and thus has the right to demand whatever they want from anyone that they contract with to operate it. The city has a long time policy of encouraging minority businesses and hiring. I even lost a contract over twenty years ago because I wasn’t in any minority status, which included women at that time.
It is a shame that this country has to have things like quotas for minorities to set things right. Until someone has a better plan to make sure that all minorities have an equal footing quotas are here. We have cheap money for first time home buyers, low income home buyers and many others. In other businesses there has been encouragement for minorities. What is the difference in making opportunity for minorities in the ski industry?
I am a part time employee of Intrawest and would be greatly disappointed if they backed out of Winter Park because of the diversity objectives of Denver. Intrwest seems to have hired many of those that are considered minorities in this country, some are on visas for the season and some are citizens. There are several actually skiing that fit in this category. I am proud that Intrawest does hire minorities and at Copper Mountain diversity is definitely the way of life.
Just a personal view.
post #38 of 73
bklyntrayc, Welcome to Epic! Nice post.
It's Good to hear your point of view. Make many day trips to Hunter? If so I'll be glad to find out who's buying at the end of the day. Hope to see you and your friends there.
post #39 of 73
brklnnyc, welcome to EpicSki! The post was great and my own experience has been that I also have seen a number of different races and ethnicities on the slopes

I hope you'll continue to visit this site and post here. This bunch - the "Barking Bears" - has an unofficial but stupendous clinic in Utah this comng season from January 27th throught the 30th, and then a general gathering following that from the 31st to Feb 3rd. Please think about joining us.
post #40 of 73
Yes , definitely think about joining us in Utah. If that's not possible, we are getting together in Sugarloaf the first weekend of March.

BTW, if it wasn't for Miles, I would know nothing about the National Brotherhood of skiing. I think it would be great if you guys had more publicity.

And just to continue my tradition of being obnoxious, are there any
"sisters" in the "brotherhood"?
post #41 of 73
Why are some so offended at the idea that ski areas would want to target their resort to minorities?
No one is offended by that, we're offended that the government will mandate racist and discriminatory behavior from the ski area.

Since winterpark is owned by a government agency, they have the right to mandate such things
No they don't. They are not allowed to mandate things that are unconstitutional. Our Bill of Rights says that you can not discriminate on the basis of race, color, or national origin. Hiring someone, or offering them incentives because of their skin color or national origin is patently unconstitutional.
post #42 of 73
By the way, brklnnyc, the New England gathering [includes anyone who want to come] is NOT at [ahem] SugarLOAF - nay, it is in the Peoples' Republic of VERmont, at SugarBUSH!

The dates are March 1 and 2, qhcih are the weekend, and 3 and 4, 2003, which are the Monday and Tuesday for whosoever can and wishes to stay on for the full four days.
post #43 of 73
Originally posted by Lisamarie:

BTW, if it wasn't for Miles, I would know nothing about the National Brotherhood of skiing. I think it would be great if you guys had more publicity.

And just to continue my tradition of being obnoxious, are there any
"sisters" in the "brotherhood"?
LOL! There are "sisters" in the "brotherhood". The question is also asked if there are any snowboarders allowed with the skiers. All are welcome.

All the resorts know about our organization as well as the manufacturers of equipment and apparel. With over 10,000 members across the country, in Canada and Europe we're well known among those who ski/snowboard.

Money is raised through our members. Some resorts and manufacturers also donate resources like coaching, equipment etc. We have so many people attending the national and regional events that it is becoming harder to find resorts that can host and house all the people.

I'm not sure what type of publicity you're suggesting would be helpful. What kind of publicity would you suggest for the Over The Hill Gang or any of the other ski councils ?
post #44 of 73
It even goes beyond being unconstitutional. Anyone who has been even halfway awake in the last century knows that these programs simply do not work. The second a highly qualified white person loses out on a job to an unskilled minority, the backlash is going to be amazingly strong!

There is already enough backlash, considering that a hard working middle class person of ANY race, after being taxed for every social entitlement program immaginable, earns a lower take home pay than the people they are supporting!

The problem with all this government controlled altruism is that it alienates people from giving, just out of being a decent human being. Do a Google search on Gertrude Himmelfarb. In Victorian society, there was no welfare system. People gave, because it was the MORAL obligation of being a good human being, not because it was the LEGAL obligation mandated by the government.

But what it really comes down to, and I'll say it again, is that all these affirmative action/entitlement proograms are inherently racist. Anyone who believes in them truly needs to re-examine their self definition as "liberal". It implies that you believe that blacks and hispanics or in some way inferior, and need special treatment.

If I were a minority race, I would rather deal with the outright hatred of the Klan, the be a recipient of some Kumbayaya's condescending view of entiltlement.

In the final analysis, we need to start treating ALL people equally, and judge them by their merits, not by their race, gender or religion. If it wasn't so hard for president Bush to put both a highly qualified black man and woman in major government
positions, surely, this is not a difficult concept for those who consider themselves liberal!
post #45 of 73
OOPS! My bad, Oboe! BKlyn. An example, on Skier World and all those OLN shows, I'd love to see more coverage of the Brotherhood, as well as the "over the hill gang".

This is what we all need to know more about! Who are the REAL people who ski?
post #46 of 73
To continue on with the main subject: One of the less attractive parts of what has been passing for modern liberalism is its patronization of those it aspires to help. The position seems to be, "Hey, you are SOOOOOO downtrodden and SOOOOO incapable that you can do nothing to help yourselves. Therefore, YOU NEED US!" Rather insulting, wouldn't you say? Laws prohibiting discrimation obviously have been needed, and yet patronization is, still, insulting. Rev. Louis Farrakan and I may disagree on much, yet we will probably agree, I feel confident, on one very important point: Minorities need to be patronized like a fish needs a bicycle.
post #47 of 73
The ski area that I worked at had a very successful marketing strategy that targeted a wide variety of minority groups. Black, Hispanic, Asian (Chinese, Pakistani and Indian). As an instructor, it was quite an experience since each group had it's own "mores & folkways" to contend with. My guess is that at least 50% of out initial lessons were taken by them.

The US Ski Team was "integrated" by force last year. The Brotherhood, lobbied for, and had a brother and sister installed on the B-Team. Ahead of other racers with better race records!
post #48 of 73
<blockquote>If it wasn't so hard for president Bush to put both a highly qualified black man and woman in major government
positions, surely, this is not a difficult concept for those who consider themselves liberal!</blockquote>

Hey now, Bubba gave us Jocelyn Elders, she was qualified to do uh, ... uh, ... Govt. mandated masterbation instruction? Hey, he really cared and that's what matters.
post #49 of 73
Originally posted by Carvemeister:
What a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking Bullshit! I don't think white females "feel" welcome cutting lawns. Let's see if we can start a Municipal Mowing Program to even the playing field for them.
You have never been in Amish land have you? Around here it is the women that do the lawns.
post #50 of 73

What a Thread! Well here is my 2cents.

Growing up in the middle (Mishawaka, IN) of South Bend and Elkhart IN, I can say this. It is wrong for the Gov. to get involved period, and if the Ski resorts want more money they should start ad's to groups on there own. I know a lot of black people that are very well off, and skiing would be a sport they could afford. Hispanic in this area also do not have it as bad as some people think.

The ski area's should offer more packages in the Schools, and have a campain to the minority groups. Thats how is should be done.

Thank you.

[ September 14, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: SnO*Eagle ]
post #51 of 73
Welcome to epicski Bklyntrayc,
Thanks for the unofficial reply to this topic. I run a small shop on Main St Park City Ut. I believe it was 3 years ago That the The National Brotherhood of Skiers held an event in Park City. That was my introduction to your fine orginization. I hope that we were good host,and please come back soon. Having 3000 skiers in town is a nice economic shot in the arm but was even better was haveing 3000 really great people in town and enjoying the mountains.
Please post more on the kids that are now on the US ski team development team. My niece is working her way up the ladder hoping to make the US Ski team. right now she needs to earn more fis points. It's a hard road. and lets face it in the US skiers can't expect the rewards that a skier from Europe gets.
post #52 of 73
To the City Council of Denver,

You've opened your can of worms,

You had better finish what you start,

And eat those worms!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ September 14, 2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: laxman ]
post #53 of 73
Originally posted by SnO*Eagle:
You have never been in Amish land have you? Around here it is the women that do the lawns. [/QB]
I've been to "Amish Country," PA., if that counts. Justly famous for its towns of Intercourse, and Blue Balls, as well as great family style eating at a restaurant called Good And Plenty. Very nice place to visit, but I don't remember seeing anybody with a lawn. Mostly all farmland from what I recall.

Got to be pretty tough to mow a field of rye with a push mower.
post #54 of 73
>>>You have never been in Amish land have you? Around here it is the women that do the lawns<<<

I live five miles from Hartville, Ohio and fifteen miles from Holmes County, Ohio, where there are still hitching posts in every parking lot.

We have school groups at our area that ski regularly once a week and then we have school groups that come as a one-time field trip.

Once I had a tall amish girl in class and she skied in an ankle long skirt. She is also a star basketball player in her school and she plays that in a skirt that goes below her knees also.

post #55 of 73
A truly bizarre thread. It tells me the troops are getting restless. Cheer up. Snow is just around the corner. Keep your cool, hit the ski swaps and sales, and watch some ski videos. We'll all get through this. :
post #56 of 73
Theirs nothing wrong with making the opportunity more availble to minorities. Thats all the Denver city council is asking. It seems to me that the word opportunity to alot of people does'nt become a issue until you insert "equal" in front of it.
post #57 of 73
EstCstSkr, no one on this thread has shown any problem with EQUAL opportunity - quite the contrary. What gives some heartburn is UNequal opportunity - known as "quotas" or "favoritism", especially when mandated by a governmental authority.

[ September 16, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #58 of 73
It was shocking to find a sport that relies simply on the numbers (read performance) to see that the ski team had AA'd this brother and sister combo ahead of other kids who had worked just as hard.

The ski team is not the government so I guess they can do what they see "fit" ...... not fair.

I have been watching a few of the Brotherhood kids at races and it's kind of sad. They come alone, sit alone and don't seem very happy to be there. They are missing the social aspects of being on a team and having the kind of fun that the rest of the kids have. One of our top racers (now an asst. coach), is Hispanic as well as a few of the girls on the team so it's not as if they would not be welcome. It does not appear that they even have a coach though I'm not sure of the actual status.

That's the puzzling part. The hill is there along with the coaching and the gates and the fun, why would they opt to be with a Black group (that appears not to be much of a "group)? How can they holler "exclusion" when they have excluded themselves? Other B'hood groups may be cohesive and have great programs so my comments are relative and limited, but you gotta wonder!
post #59 of 73
As you say, the Team may do as it sees fit - and they may well be doing the right thing, or not, we'll see. However, now that the Brotherhood has the kids there, two more things are needed: First, they need the moral support, the presence, of the people who put them there. Secondly, can you blame them for sitting alone and looking scared? Perhaps it would be salutary for the others to appraoch them and include them - this has nothing to do with philosphy or politics, it's just the decent thing to do.
post #60 of 73
I don't believe for one minute that the US Ski Team is bound by or influenced by quotas. Alpine competition is a speed event. We all know it's not figure skating or gymnastics where subjective factors have sway over the results.

Here is the alpine development team roster for 2001/2002 season:

Andre Horton is on this list. His sister Suki Horton is not.

The NBS did not strong arm the US Ski team to install anyone. Please provide the names of those who have been passed up in order for Andre to be on the team - since I'd like to review their race results and determine the truth of this independently.

I also doubt that any of these kids are "hollering exclusion". What you're describing is so far away from what I have seen and experienced that I wonder where you have been and what you've observed.
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