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This, is progress

post #1 of 73
Thread Starter 
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...2%257E,00.html

It'll be years before this sport ever realizes cultural diversity, but at least a few here at the home office are talking about it.

I think it's great.
post #2 of 73
This whole article is rediculous.
post #3 of 73
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post #4 of 73
Should not resort as private businesses be able to decide who to hire and who to market to without government helping them out? At least nobody is trying to tell Taos and Alta that it is time to introduce some diversity and have a mandatory percent of snowboarders on the slopes and in service department.
If this is a business decision (e.g. Canadian dollar is going 1 for 1 at Jay peak) I am all for it though.
post #5 of 73
There is a huge difference between promoting diversity and proselitizing minorities to death!
post #6 of 73
If I'm not mistaken, Winter Park is run by the government and is not a private owned resort. I believe its part of the parks department of Denver.
post #7 of 73
There are only two black and no other minorities holding season passes out of 1500 sold at our area, why?

I have my boat docked at a marina on Lake Erie, 300 boats of 26 ft and up to 52 ft and not a single minority, why?

They and their yachts would be more than welcome.

....Ott
post #8 of 73
To my knowledge the skiing industry had never systematically discriminated against any minority.

What it does discriminate against is:

- People without enough money to ski
- People who won't sacrifice (i.e. prioritize appropriately) to take part in the sport.

And, both of these discriminate equally against everyone.

Discrimination on the basis of race, color, creed, etc, is WRONG. For the city to say thay are going to give preferences or have quotas is just bad public policy. Sure, open it up, make sure everyone has access, but do not discriminate because of skin color.

Bob
post #9 of 73
The problem with this diversity issue is that the ski culture as we know it sprouted before there were real opportunities in the minority world to participate. Consequently many do not 'feel' like they are welcome. ...It is high time that one of the publicly owned ski areas made a place for EVERYONE to discover what this skiing thing is all about.

I don't like to see anything crammed down anyone's throat, but there isn't cultural equality in the ski world, and it will only happen if someone has the grit to knock down a few barriers. I personally feel that Winter Park is the perfect place for something like this to happen. It won't hurt the skiing industry in any way whatsoever, and might help a ski area that is sometimes hard pressed to effectively compete in its region.

My single concern is that this might turn into some type of 'crusade' where people try to push this on other, less appropriate situations.

[ September 13, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: feal ]
post #10 of 73
You mean that white kids with dreadlocks and rap music don't increase diversity?

Here's the deal: many minority families that have enough household income to participate in skiing have had to work much harder than white families to get to the same levels, and are accordingly more frugal, and are also more likely to help their families out.
Then there is Mr. Diddy ....
post #11 of 73
Quote:
there isn't cultural equality in the ski world, and it will only happen if someone has the grit to knock down a few barriers.
Two questions:

1) Can you explain to me what "cultural equality" is and why you think there is none in the ski world, and why it is a desirable thing?

2) What "barriers" are there? From a hiring perspective, most ski areas hire almost everyone who applies for a job. Their begging for people. And from a customer perspective, I don't know of anyone who is denied buying a lift ticket because their a minority.
post #12 of 73
"2) What "barriers" are there? From a hiring perspective, most ski areas hire almost everyone who applies for a job. Their begging for people. And from a customer perspective, I don't know of anyone who is denied buying a lift ticket because their a minority."

I'll second this question.
post #13 of 73
I can't think of anything more offensive to minorities than offering something assinine such as "People of Color Discount Days!" I also found it pretty offensive that Whistler had a program that trained homeless youth to be snow sports instructors. People pay good money for those lessons, and I don't think I'm being a capitalist pig by saying I want an instructor who has at least completed high school.

On the other hand, I find it really strange that when Mitt Romney was campaigning in MA., some people got really angry that he visited schools in Hispanic neighborhoods and spoke about olympic ahtletes of hispanic heritage.

I guess anyone who wants to truly INSPIRE someone to do something with their lives, as opposed to creating new tax payer supported social programs, is offensive to people who have accomplished so little in their own lives that the best they can do for themselves is administer these same social programs, which only serve to keep minorities dependent upon them, and therefore, out of the general work force.
post #14 of 73
The National Brotherhood of Skiers is the country's largest Black ski club. They work had to promote skiing and other winter sports to young black's They have a goal of haveing at least one Black on the US ski team in the next Olympics. I Wonder what the National Brotherhood of Skiers would have to say about this?
post #15 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by feal:
The problem with this diversity issue is that the ski culture as we know it sprouted before there were real opportunities in the minority world to participate. Consequently many do not 'feel' like they are welcome.
What a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking Bullshit! I don't think white females "feel" welcome cutting lawns. Let's see if we can start a Municipal Mowing Program to even the playing field for them.

Oh yeah, and let's diversify some of those NBA teams a little more too so we have a nice cultural "blend", which would really be more fun for the fans to watch whether they realize or not.

Jeez, what a bunch of crap. Of course, now you know what you all are by voiceing disagreement with this type of thinking, hmmm? That's right. Just a matter of minutes before somebody points that out for us.
post #16 of 73
I think alot of you are missing the real point of this. Notice the figure: 25 percent of America are minorities. That is going to get much higher in the near future. Minorities (especially Latinos) are the future of this country. Many might detest that, but it is going to happen. Do we want the future of this country left in the hands of them in their current situation? Should businesses watch their customer base get smaller and smaller? This has changed from being a civil rights issue to an economic issue.
post #17 of 73
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
I think alot of you are missing the real point of this.... This has changed from being a civil rights issue to an economic issue.
Come on, don't kid youself. Here are a few telling quotes from the article:

...And some Denver City Council members have got their paintbrushes ready.

"Diversity has been a part of every major project we have done," said Denver City Councilwoman Deborah Ortega. "There is no reason this project should not have diversity. We really feel this needs to be contractually addressed. Without us going through this process, the deal doesn't exist...."

...Our grandchildren ski. And the ski industry has made no effort to really reach out to this huge market," said Sal Gomez, chairman of the Denver Hispanic Chamber. "It would seem to be that the city would want to make a requirement that Intrawest focus on emerging markets."

This is NOT about economics. I've also noticed personally that there aren't many Mexicans playing ice hockey.

Are we not making them feel welcome, or do you think maybe they just prefer playing soccer? Sooner or later somebody will surely tell them what's best for them though. Hockey.

"Hey Mom, pour me another glass of that Funny Face Orange!"

[ September 13, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Carvemeister ]
post #18 of 73
I must be missing something here. I do not think that the City is planning a "People of Color Discount Days!”

Why are some so offended at the idea that ski areas would want to target their resort to minorities? There is a large virtually untapped market of folks out there that do HAVE the money to ski but I agree with Feal that monitories have not been made to feel welcome. Not that anyone would turn away their $$ mind you. More that no one has aggressively gone after their $$.

Have you looked at any of the Ski mags? Almost all the ppl in ads are white. Almost, well probably all.

[ September 13, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Kima ]
post #19 of 73
Sure it's economic. Colorado depends hugely on the ski industry.
Any effort to increase minority participation is going to be beneficial to the state in the long run. This might not make sense in any other state, by the way.
LA ski areas have plenty of latino participation, BTW. But they mostly snowboard.
post #20 of 73
"Suggestions include hiring requirements for minorities at the ski area,"

A subtle way to say quota system. Again, my personal feeling is that quota systems, affirmative action and the likes are more racist than anything the most staunch republican can think up!

As we have discussed in other threads, skiing even at its cheapest, is probably one of the most expensive sports you can be involved in

Miles said: "Here's the deal: many minority families that have enough household income to participate in skiing have had to work much harder than white families to get to the same levels, and are accordingly more frugal, and are also more likely to help their families out."

So is it moral to actively promote participation in a sport that may be beyond their budget?

Perhaps Colorado will come up with some sort of tax increase for the middle class to supplement minority lift ticket sales.

:
post #21 of 73
Kima, Milesb:
You really ought to read the article and understand what it's saying. I'm not arguing with your notion of ski resorts adopting their own plans to attract minorities for whatever reasons THEY want. I agree that would probably be smart business.

That is absolutely not, however, what is going on according to the article. You are completely missing the message in the article. The message is that the city council is considering mandating some kind of cultural diversity programs. Why? Because as always, they, and only they, know what's best for businesses, as well as for you, and me.

Why, they're Council Members for crying out loud. Isn't that enough?
post #22 of 73
Since winterpark is owned by a government agency, they have the right to mandate such things.
As far as the morality of it goes, yes, I think that minorities in particular would be much better off putting their extra money into savings and investments, as the household WEALTH gap is much higher than the INCOME gap. But I think that this makes good economic sense for Colorado. Because Latinos from Texas and California aren't going to fly to Colorado to play soccer, are they?
post #23 of 73
Its government control of business. The purpose of government SHOULD be to protect the people from harm or violence, not mandate how a business should be run. If ski areas were refusing to sell to or hire minorities, that would be cause for government intervention. This does not seem to be the case.

Inspiration goes a heck of a lot further than entitlement.

Condoleezza Rice entered the University of Denver at 15, graduated magna cum laude at 19. In a biographical TV series about Colin Powell, he states that his family never told him that he should expect to be discriminated against.

IMHO, these 2 are much better role models than those that the left has chose to create, such as Farakhan and Sharpton.

But as I said in a previous post, if its considered condescending for a white person to point out the hispanic olympic athletes, then we are damned either way!
post #24 of 73
Oh my God, I think I'm falling in love with Lisamarie.
What will the other Swamis think?

(p.s. Swami has a magic carpet!)

[ September 13, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Carvemeister ]
post #25 of 73
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post #26 of 73
I don't believe that any government agency has the right to tell a private business to meet certain quotas, unless that business is recieving funding or special tax breaks, or other concessions from that agency. This is a public/private venture (as are most ski resorts, they are on public land) and such measures are appropriate, if the electorate approves. Let them vote out the city council if they don't like it. In short, nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head. Intrawest can back out if they don't like it.
post #27 of 73
We have an expression in Vermont: "If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT." When the ski areas believe there's money in targeting minorities, they'll do it, for heaven's sake! They actually LIKE MONEY! (doh) And if there ISN'T money in it, then what's the point? It is SO dictatorial - and so CONDESENDING to minorities - to say, "We need to have more xyz people skiing!"

If the National Brotherhood of Skiers, or any other private group, wants to promote skiing among the Afican American community, the Bosnian American community, the Vietnamese American community, or anyone else, more power to them! They, and we all, can do as we please in that regard. Hell, I have a hard enough time promoting skiing in this HOUSEHOLD, so I have my hands full, thank you. I think that more oboes should be skiing, . . . but, noooooo. I think maybe I should lobby for new legislation and grant money to force the issue - they'll ski and LIKE it, damit!

I am absolutely opposed to the sort of invidious and manifest discrimination that actually is illegal. But some of this "promotion" is dictating quotas and is, itself, blatant discrimination and, in my view, uconstitutional.

If NBA players are more often black than white, so what? If skiers are more often white than black, so what?

I'm with Lisamarie and Carvemeister on this issue.
post #28 of 73
On another note, I will see progress when people no longer reach past the Wheaties boxes with Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan to get to the Wayne Gretsky and Sarah Hughes versions.
post #29 of 73
There is of course a win win scenario that can in fact happen, here.
Since skiing and mountains in general are so much of what Colorado is about, and I would suspect a major part of their economy, why not have ALL school children have a day at the mountains, one day a week throughout the winter. They would take a ski lesson, and the rest of their classroom activities would take place somewhere in the ski lodge. A major focus would be placed on the mountain environment, geology, snow making etc. You can even do a sililar thing in the spring and fall. Create a love and respect for the mountains amongst ALL children.

Keep in mind, a ski instructor earns far less than a school gym teacher, so economics should not be the problem.

People are often inspired to do be financially sucessful if there are things that they wish to do, that cost a considerable amount of money. By inspiring kids to love the ski environment, you inspire them to do well so that they can afford it.
post #30 of 73
I really think the sporting analogy should be more like this:

Since most sports arenas are at least partially subsidized (if not mostly) by local governments, why don't they set quotas on the makeup of the people attending sporting events in those arenas?! I mean, doesn't it make sense that 25% of the people attending an Avalanche game should be minorities? Maybe that should apply for luxury suites too... and maybe there should be more minority owners, employees etc. of teams that play in government owned or subsidized stadiums?

It's also interesting to see this come up in today's climate of shifting more and more away from quotas too. Didn't California just eliminate quotas for their university system?

Ahh well, I've always believed that the way a person looks shouldn't have anything to do with what sports they could participate in or jobs they could do (I mean this is a gender way too)! I'm done.
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