New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

is this advance turn?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Bode Miller teaches 'advanced turns' with seemingly twisting the upper-C and checking the lower-C.

click 'advanced turns' on the left side menu.
http://www.sportskool.com/skiing/#
the core move is at:
4:02 twisting, with help of pole plant, the upper-C and braking at lower-C
4:21 twisting, with help of pole plant, the upper-C and braking at lower-C

Warren Smith teaches almost the same in 'steep skiing'

why is that? have i missed something that there are really advance skill elements that make this move advance?
post #2 of 28
I don't actually see a whole lot of upper-C in those turns. However, they are far better turns than I can ski, so sure, go ahead and call them advanced. I like the look of the bottom half of those turns though. That's something I wouldn't mind being able to emulate some day.

My goal though is to be engaged well before the fall line, and in the slow-mo of his "more animated" turns I don't see the skis beginning to perform until at or slightly after the fall line. That's my goal, but in reality I often look like someone has pinned the tips of my skis to the snow and my tails will wash out instead of getting the nice progressive engagement of the ski for speed control with the area directly under foot scribing a very nice round turn.

So my skiing is intermediate, this turn more advanced. I guess I would call the turn I'd like to make "expert." These are poorly defined words...

-Adam
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abertsch View Post
I don't actually see a whole lot of upper-C in those turns..
-Adam
i guess he do it on purpose. doing so would 'escape' pointing the skis directly down the fall line and therefore 'escape' from the direct gravity pull.
post #4 of 28
Interesting that he really stresses committing "100% to the outside ski"--no discussion of weight balance, inside ski action etc...
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58 View Post
Interesting that he really stresses committing "100% to the outside ski"--no discussion of weight balance, inside ski action etc...
My guess is that the assumption is that there is going to be an active inside half in an advanced turn turn no matter what you ask the skier to do with their pressure management. I can't watch the clip with sound right now as I am at work, but I'll check it out again when I get home.

Later

GREG
post #6 of 28
For all mountain skiing its good to develop a short radius turn that allows a brushing/pivoting component in the upper part of the turn (rather than edge locked from start to finish). That's what Bode is demoing here and many people consider it to be a higher lvl skill then riding the radius of the ski (what most people do when they carve).

If you stop the vid at the right point you will also note that Bode is upside down (ie. bases pointing up the hill).
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you stop the vid at the right point you will also note that Bode is upside down (ie. bases pointing up the hill).
I stopped the video at several points, but admittedly not all of them. When I look at your video, Max, I see a lot more time spent upside down with the edges actually performing (but brushing) in the high-c part of the turn. It's almost like Bode is doing the first half of a hop turn, and the second half of a brushed/skarved short turn. I don't know what the relative merits are, but it looks like he's working a lot harder!

-Adam
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58 View Post
Interesting that he really stresses committing "100% to the outside ski"--no discussion of weight balance, inside ski action etc...
Well, he did discuss something about weight balance-- using a vertical movement to unweight the skis at the start of the turn. I freely admit my inexperience with racer techniques, but I'm confused. A vertical unweighting at turn initiation is in stark contrast to what I've been taught in the past several years.
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryTroy View Post
Well, he did discuss something about weight balance-- using a vertical movement to unweight the skis at the start of the turn. I freely admit my inexperience with racer techniques, but I'm confused. A vertical unweighting at turn initiation is in stark contrast to what I've been taught in the past several years.
Agree, hop-turn initiation, 100% outside ski--sounds very "old School"--not that there's anything wrong with that...I can be pretty old school myself.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58 View Post
Agree, hop-turn initiation, 100% outside ski--sounds very "old School"--not that there's anything wrong with that...I can be pretty old school myself.
It was refreshing listening to Bode and Phil talk about skiing. God forbid, Phil talked about "steering" the skis! I think they did a great job of speaking simply to the target ability level, referring to time tested fundamentals and techniques. The thing about "old school," if you ask me, is that it is simply sound fundamental skiing that has plenty of value given the situation. I think the unweighting, commitment to outside ski, and steering are directed at the targeted ability level that would be viewing the segment for learning purposes and what they, specifically, need to learn (in general).

Except in relation to WC racing and other highly competetive arenas, I don't buy the idea that new equipment has made any formerly dominant technique obsolete. There are more options available to use as far as techniques and movements. New equipmment has also made it possible for us mere mortals to experience many of the things that only great skiers could acheive on the eq. available before the mid-to-late 90's.

The Carving video is great too
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
what is the benefit of committing 100% to the outside skis in the situation?

Roto - where is the 'carving video'?
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
what is the benefit of committing 100% to the outside skis in the situation?
Develops your balance on/with that ski early in the turn versus reactively developing it later.
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Develops your balance on/with that ski early in the turn versus reactively developing it later.
i guess you hit the main point. even though i can do carving i loss balance quite often. so do u think one should spare sometime to practice 100% commitment to the outside skis as a drill?
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
what is the benefit of committing 100% to the outside skis in the situation?

Roto - where is the 'carving video'?
On the same page as the 'advanced turns' at the bottom of the list.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
i guess you hit the main point. even though i can do carving i loss balance quite often. so do u think one should spare sometime to practice 100% commitment to the outside skis as a drill?
Drills where you commit 100% to either ski are a very good way of developing balance. I spent a large majority of my season last year working on one-footed drills of various forms for the sole purpose of developing balance and awareness of both feet.

It is close to impossible to commit 100% of your weight to the outside ski unless the inside ski is completely off the snow, but bode's statement is to urge the skier to make movements like you are weighting 100% on the outside ski. Carved turns are often taught with a very slight lifiting and pulling back of the inside ski specifically for this purpose.

Later

GREG
post #16 of 28
Thread Starter 
Roto - thanks, i though you were talking about RiDeC58's vid
HeluvaSkier - yes, worth trying out the drill.
- back to the original question, do u think its an advance turn in actual use? i doubt it becos the skill set involve seems to be only pole plant, twisting and checking. have i miss something important?
post #17 of 28
Advanced - sure - I don't know many intermediates that can make turns like that do you?

Expert - probably not. It certainly has some movements present that are not considered desirable in expert skiing. The most prominent being the strong up-move. I suspect this isn't Bode's usual turns (probably just for demo/publicity purposes)... although if they were it would explain a lot of his recent trouble in slalom.

Later

GREG
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
- back to the original question, do u think its an advance turn in actual use? i doubt it becos the skill set involve seems to be only pole plant, twisting and checking. have i miss something important?
Yes they are advanced turns. Add balance, tipping, and counter balance skills to the list.
post #19 of 28
Heluva, the main reason for Bodes SL trouble lies elswhere than in skiing technique. One of the main reasons for sure is that they made the course tighter but top performance comes and goes. He is a great skier and he has been on top for a long time.

This is a good thread because it takes our high flying theories and throws them right out the window. Its about time. Its about time to focus on truly fundamental skills. The fact that we even question unweighting as a advanced skill is frightening. IMO bode did this here in his video; impossible to pressure the skis too much in the high c and therefore not much upside down. Not before the falline the skis come in real performance mode. Until then its mainly floating. On a groomer its a whole different story.

Bodes style is also not a very typical OLF "flex outside ski to relese the turn". Maybe the relese is done by flexing old outside ski but bode extends his old inside leg before he has passed the transition, ILE. This is the reason his head keeps rising at every transition. Note also that his target viewers are not epic posters, they are normal people with normal skiing vocabularities.
post #20 of 28
I would call it an advanced turn. To me, what defines expert skiing is what is present just as much as what is not present. It's too easy to say advanced carving is fully weighted skis arc to arc with no pivot. Once you can do that you can combine it with other things and have fun. Put a little upper cut in your right cross! Yes, he has points in the turns where the skis are totally unweighted and pivoting in the air, but he is not using the unweighting movement to allow the skis to be pivoted; he is working the skis on edge into a turn and bouncing off that turn into another turn in the other direction, while repositioning the edges to carve the new turn. He is in fact blending carving skills with other skills. The difference is working the skis (notice the decambering) to get the energy and directing that energy.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Heluva, the main reason for Bodes SL trouble lies elswhere than in skiing technique.
I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'd rather save it for a different discussion as it doesn't belong in this one. It is safe to say there have been significant changes in SL since Bode was the king of that event and they haven't only been in the way the courses were set. Plus, where was Bode when the changes were happening? - Racing speed events. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
...bode extends his old inside leg before he has passed the transition, ILE. This is the reason his head keeps rising at every transition.
I think your understanding of ILE as it was presented on this site by Rick might be a little bit incorrect. Sure the inside leg is extending, but not necessarily in a good way.

Regarding an up/unweight... I don't think anyone is condemning it but it is certainly not needed in the turns demonstrated in that clip. They are what the site called them - advanced turns - meaning there are probably levels above the one that those turns are targeted at.

Later

GREG
post #22 of 28
I was writing as you posted TDK. I agree. Old inside leg extension seams to be the standard cross-over for high-speed skiing, while old outside leg flexing is more slalom-oriented. I think Bode's still doing ok on the higher speed turns. I can relate having been mostly high-speed, and transitioning into tighter turns only this past decade.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
I think your understanding of ILE as it was presented on this site by Rick might be a little bit incorrect. Sure the inside leg is extending, but not necessarily in a good way.

Regarding an up/unweight... I don't think anyone is condemning it but it is certainly not needed in the turns demonstrated in that clip. They are what the site called them - advanced turns - meaning there are probably levels above the one that those turns are targeted at.

Later

GREG
Just like Ghost just wrote, in SL the OLF seems to be more typical than the ILE. That is mainly because there is less time for ILE in SL but also because it makes it more rigid, it makes it stronger, more force. In GS you sometimes have OLF like Poutiainen showed in her photomontage at ronlemaster but the general rule applies much because of how much time you have to set up your turn and how strong it has to be. Also ILE gives your leggs a 1 sec break which is much appreciated in GS-DH.

The up-unweight move Helluva is refering to here as being only an advanced and not an expert level turn I can only say that there are different levels of the up-unweight move. Bode displays and demos it for all of us to see and we do see it more than very clearly but regular skiers dont necessarily do. Thats why he overdoes it. But not only that, if you crank up the performance level you do try to keep the up-unweight move down below your hipps, in your leggs. Ski rebound is a very popular term here at epic but it is often forgotten that its part of up-unweighting. What is down-unweighting? That is simply up-unweighting but done refined with all the movement going on below your waist and hipps, in your leggs. That is expert level up-unweighing. That is how you ski powder submerged and bumps.

I think questioning Bodes insight in skiing is very unmature. Sofar I have not seen anybody here at epic ski even close to Bodes level. Hes cool, knows he doesent have to prove anything to anybody on such video. Its great that a master like that takes time off his busy shedule and gives us such a first class lesson. Shame on uss!!!
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
HeluvaSkier - before i learn carving i invariably attempt to turn that way once it was steeper. of course the outcome doesnt looks like that at all.

Max - got it. it looks more complicated now.
- can i invite you to make an MA for my skiing?
Ghost - yes, i believe he uses rebound to do the changeover

having the very expert insight from you all. can i propose the maneuver as demonstrated looks like this?

to changeover: pole plant (while making use of rebound to changeover),
upper C: airboune twisting(borrowing momentum from rebound) with counter balancing and counter rotation,
lower C: tipping and outside skis checking with balancing?
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Max - got it. it looks more complicated now.
- can i invite you to make an MA for my skiing?
Sure. Is there a video I missed?
post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Sure. Is there a video I missed?
sent to your pm. thanks in advance
post #27 of 28
advanced turns, without a doubt. The crossover is what makes it advanced. 100% on the outside ski is the only way to get the pressure needed to bend the ski and bring it around.

In other similar footage he talkes about driving the knee forward with huge emphasis on the down hill ski while tip lead is very noticable.

You don't see many using crossover out on the hill. Great lesson but Bode looked out of place, out of his element in the soft snow.
post #28 of 28
Thread Starter 
is this skill applicable to:
1. icy steep slope
2. icy slope covered with say 1 or 2 inches of dry powder

i believe this way of skiing allows one to slow down, just wondering if the landing part can get a good grip and bending the skis to a short radius under the above snow condition.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching