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What's your base bevel(s) and why? - Page 3

Poll Results: What Base bevel or bevels do you use

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 4% of voters (5)
  • 20% of voters (23)
    0.5°
  • 10% of voters (12)
    0.7°
  • 60% of voters (66)
    1.0
  • 0% of voters (0)
    1.5°
  • 2% of voters (3)
    2.0°
  • 3% of voters (4)
    Other
110 Total Votes  
post #61 of 88
Thread Starter 
Thanks Garrett (it was a slam dunk & gives me an idea for morfdude ). Actually it's closer to 1/10th of an inch. It makes me wonder how someone's knee height, foot and boot fit, etc and natural geometry affects how individuals prefer different bevel angles. And, I'm sure snow type and carving versus less of a preference comes into play.

FWIW, in my case when at 2° I definitely 'felt like' I had to consciously move my knee 'more' to get on an edge, though it wasn't a big deal. The 1° was easy and felt 'normal'. I can see where if you are really into quicker response, the shallower angles will be preferred, especially if you are a racer and more concerned about precision and shaving off fractions of seconds.
post #62 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman View Post
Nice diagram Terry. So according to my trig, that makes the difference between .5 and .75 degrees about a third of an inch at my head...not a big difference but probably within the realm of human perception. It does make me wonder whether the different angular deflections are a second order effect and what we readily perceive is caused by a different mechanism at the ski/snow interface.
Yes nice diagram, but! (ya know there is always a but) this assumes absolutley no play laterally in your boot or binding. Also does not take into account most people should be set up with center of knee mass 1-2.5 degrees inside of center line on their boot sole and it depends on knee height. (measured from floor to knee with boots on) and then you have ski thickness, binding and plate standheight and boot sole standheight.

I've posted this before but check this out!

Base Bevel – the "Heart & Soul"
By Dave Peszek
This is the second in a series of articles on ski and snowboard tuning that will appear this season in Ski Racing. Each issue, we'll tackle different topics that arise in the preparation and maintenance of alpine and nordic skis and snowboards. The author will attempt to answer any tech questions that you may have – Pez@holmenkol.us.
If you have been following along, in the last issue we discussed the importance of starting the season off with a well cleaned & waxed quiver of skis. This issue, we will dive right into what a good friend calls the "heart & soul" of a ski – base bevel.
Graham Lonetto, owner of Edgewise Elite Service in Stowe, VT & former WC women’s technician, has studied the interplay between base bevel, slope pitch, and time through a GS training course. "One of my athletes was skiing fast on steep pitches but loosing time on the flats, so we did quite a bit of testing with base bevel. We found that increasing the base bevel allowed the athlete to be less harsh on her edges. This allowed the athlete to let the skis run downhill rather than across the pitch, drawing out the turn" says Lonetto. The testing consisted of equally prepared GS skis and considered angles of one half, three quarters, and one degree of base bevel of the athlete’s GS skis. This leads us to the statement that base bevel is the "heart & soul" of the ski. Small changes in the bevel contribute drastically to the skis on snow feel, performance, and ski-ability. The important thing to learn from Graham’s testing & WC experience is that base bevel is a hugely important variable, but also one that is subjective to you & your particular equipment setup. Change any one factor and they all are affected.
Virtually every ski today comes from the factory with a high quality stone grind, and often the base edge is "relieved" from the base material. This is a description for a factory process where the base steel is made roughly parallel to the base material, but set very slightly below the level of the plastic. When you, your coach, or your favorite shop inspect the factory base bevel, be sure to determine if the base side steel is actually angled (and how much) or if it is relieved.
One way to check your base bevel is to lay your true bar across the ski and carefully hold the bar flush against one base edge, testing in several spots along both edges of the ski. If you can lay the true bar flush against the steel, you have a base angle. Does the true bar just touch the corner of the steel & the base material? If so, you have base edge relief. Now examine the gap that is present on the other side of the true bar. Measure this gap in several places along the length of the ski. Ideally, it is consistent throughout the ski’s length. I like to see between 1-2 mm of consistent gap under the true bar – of course this is personal, and you need to test yourself to decide what is best. I also like to use an old gap dwelling tool or valve clearance guide to measure this distance (bonus points if you have one lying around!).
Many athletes will choose to start at one half degree and test from there. Remember, it is always easier to increase base bevel angle. Decreasing the angle requires extensive, precise, and very skilled stone grinding. Be sure to set every ski you own for that given discipline at the same angle, and check for consistency of angle throughout the season.
As far as the actual technique of applying the base bevel, just follow a few simple guidelines:
• Cleanliness is godliness – keep all the filings away from the ski using an inexpensive paintbrush.

• Always pull the file so that the filings are ejected away from the base material not into it. If you are right handed, that means the tip pointing towards your left and file the furthest edge, then flip the ski and place the tail towards your left and file the furthest edge away from you.

• Use the sharpest, smallest, straightest file you have. I ALWAYS check my files with a true bar before using them. Especially check the file for "tail", which is when you have a nice straight file but the last centimeter or two veers off course. If this happens, don’t be afraid to break that section off. For base beveling, I like to use the finest file I can, and choose one that has very shallow tooth height. This yields a more precise cut and the file cuts less with each pass, allowing for more accuracy.

• Use only high quality files made specifically for ski tuning. The files from the corner hardware store definitely won’t do the job here.

• Watch carefully to ensure that file is not cutting the base material.

• Hold the file and file guide precisely. Press straight down, with gentle to moderate pressure (don’t bend the file). Let the sharp file do the work.

• Pull in long, smooth, overlapping strokes. Count your strokes so that you pull the same number at the tip, middle, and tail, on both sides, and on both skis. Brush the file & ski clean after each pull using your paintbrush.

• Polish the base steel with a hard Arkansas or ceramic type stone.
Next issue, we will tackle shaping the ski.
Remember, the race to win starts now!
Dave Peszek is the brand manager for Holmenkol USA, and a member of the Holmenkol World Racing Team. Dave also handles World Cup race service for Holmenkol and Uvex. "Pez" can be reached at Pez@Holmenkol.us and will try to answer all of your technical questions.
post #63 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman View Post
Is that supposed to be a lot?

"most" factory bevels aren't that bad these days, but there are definitely exceptions to that. If you haven't found brand new skis that were stupid base high or over beveled or stupid flat or suffering from any number of other quality problems yet, just wait...you will. And yes, this includes "good" brands.
I've even found significant variations along the same edge of the same ski out of the wrapper. Its also not uncommom to have one ski in the pair different than the other. As a rule, most ski's bases aren't that flat out of the wrapper and need a grind.
post #64 of 88
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Yes nice diagram, but! (ya know there is always a but) this assumes absolutley no play laterally in your boot or binding. Also does not take into account most people should be set up with center of knee mass 1-2.5 degrees inside of center line on their boot sole and it depends on knee height. (measured from floor to knee with boots on) and then you have ski thickness, binding and plate standheight and boot sole standheight.
Actually Atomicman (or is it Headman now, ), the diagrams are simply the relative geometric DIFFERENCES for the given height between the bevel angles themselves, only. The other factors are the variables that are probably different and subjective for each individual: ie, ski slope, speed, feet, binding, boot, leg length, experience, snow type, skier type, body type, etc. It's probably among the few things that is quantifiable and undebatable in the mix.
post #65 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post
Having some fairly bad alignment issues, bevel angles are very important to me. I went out and bought a fairly expensive Sun Valley Tuning bevel gauge. You will be shocked to know that most factory base bevels are in the 2.0 range out of the wrapper, even when the rep says its .5 or 1.0 don't believe it. I'm talking higher end Fischers, Heads and even Stockli carving and race skis. So going from the factory tune to say .5 is fairly noticable in most cases. I haven't found that magic number, I'm still playing. For me the side bevel seems to be more critical than the base bevel. I can't run a very aggressive tune on my ski's as they get very hooky. I'm actually focusing more on my boots and canting the soles. One piece of advice, stick with one shop when you get your bases ground and edges beveled. Checking with my gauge a .5 degree at one shop isn't always the same at the next. I have mine ground to .5 and then take it to .75 by hand.

this has not been my experience with Atomic Head or Stockli.

If the skis had a 2 degree base bevel. A .7 or 1 degree bevel guide would cut no edge off. Side bevel is much less critical, the heart & soul of ski-ability is base bevel. But yes a 2 holds an edge better then a 1 and 3 is holds better then a 2 on the side edge. But side edge bevel is hardly critical when compared to skiing characteristics of different base bevels.


Edited by Atomicman - 3/4/14 at 3:54pm
post #66 of 88
I have all of my new ski's stone gound flat first of all, then have the shop bevel to .5 on the base and 1.0 on the side. I then by hand (for consistency) bring the base up to a .7 or 1.0, I can ski either base bevel with no problem. As soon as I start increasing the side bevels the skis become very hooky and hard to ski, I have been leaving it at about 1.5 on the edge (similar to the factory). Keep in mind, I have a really messed up alignment issue with my right leg and hip inparticular. I have 4.0 degrees of canting planned into the right boot sole and my ski still doesn't lay flat on the snow. I also have the "Duck Walk" issue with my right leg where my foot points more East than North, I'm going to try a pair of the Fischer Soma's this season to see if that helps. I have no problem skiing any ski's out of the wrapper, only that I desire more edge grip and performance for high speed carving and racing. Even some Stockli models with a base bevel of 0 Degrees (flat) under foot and .5 on the tip and tail, present no problem for me. You are correct in your assessment that the base bevel should be more critical than the side bevel but I'm the exception. I'm experimenting and have the tools to bevel up to 4.0 on the edge in .5 increments and up to 3.0 base bevel. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears as this has been a major struggle.
post #67 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post
I have all of my new ski's stone gound flat first of all, then have the shop bevel to .5 on the base and 1.0 on the side. I then by hand (for consistency) bring the base up to a .7 or 1.0, I can ski either base bevel with no problem. As soon as I start increasing the side bevels the skis become very hooky and hard to ski, I have been leaving it at about 1.5 on the edge (similar to the factory). Keep in mind, I have a really messed up alignment issue with my right leg and hip inparticular. I have 4.0 degrees of canting planned into the right boot sole and my ski still doesn't lay flat on the snow. I also have the "Duck Walk" issue with my right leg where my foot points more East than North, I'm going to try a pair of the Fischer Soma's this season to see if that helps. I have no problem skiing any ski's out of the wrapper, only that I desire more edge grip and performance for high speed carving and racing. Even some Stockli models with a base bevel of 0 Degrees (flat) under foot and .5 on the tip and tail, present no problem for me. You are correct in your assessment that the base bevel should be more critical than the side bevel but I'm the exception. I'm experimenting and have the tools to bevel up to 4.0 on the edge in .5 increments and up to 3.0 base bevel. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears as this has been a major struggle.
I will almost guarantee that the side bevel itself is not the issue. this sounds like classic "hanging Burr" problem. A hanging Bur is created whenever you work on your side edge and would be more of a problem when changing side edge bevesl because of the use of a file. I have posted much information on hanging burrs and how to fix it.

But basically when you work on your side edge a microscopic curl of steel is created that points straight down into the snow from your side edge past your base edge. It is this "ridge" that must be "knocked off" or your skis will ski very grabby just as though the were railed. they will be very unpredictable and not roll on or off edge smoothly. To remove this; the final step in the side edge sharpening process, take a diamond file, hard rubber dressing block or an arknsas stone and with your ski base facing away from you, edge at the top put the stone flat against the base edge and run the stone with medium pressure using your thumb as a guide on the side wall (which is on the top of your skis now) from tail to tip. you can hear the stone when correctly in contact with the base edge. Your stone should extend slightly above the side edge of the ski.

I almost guarantee this is why you are having side edge problems!



I have similar alignment issues (right leg and hip also) and it is base bevel that is the problem not side bevel.

also, why waste all that money to have shop put nevels on your skis when you are just going to hand tune them anyway.

A good stone grind is only about $20.00.

Without exception all of our skis (and there are about 26 pair in the garage right now) all skied extremly well with the factory tune.

Although i did change my Monster 88's to a 2 degree side edge and changed my SS speeds and isl RD to a 3 degree side edge. there was not a problem with the factory tune i just like a different tune then what they came with. Big improvement. all of our Atomic's came with a 3 degree side edge. and skied absolutly the smoothest when brand new.
post #68 of 88
Thread Starter 
A picture's worth a thousand words :





Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post
If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears as this has been a major struggle.
(Buckwild, there's always snowboarding...... )
post #69 of 88
Hi,
Thanks for the tip. I'm polishing the edges currently with a 220 Sun Valley stone after filing from tip to tail, bases away as you described. It doesn't seem to matter if its my tuning or the local shops, I still have problems. Its very frustrating, most eveyone I ski with runs a 1 and 3 bevel on identical Fischer Worldcup RC's, I swap ski's and have a hard time getting the ski's to turn and it feels like they want to throw me over the tips. I go back to my ski's with less base and edge bevel and don't have a problem.

Buck
post #70 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwild View Post
Hi,
Thanks for the tip. I'm polishing the edges currently with a 220 Sun Valley stone after filing from tip to tail, bases away as you described. It doesn't seem to matter if its my tuning or the local shops, I still have problems. Its very frustrating, most eveyone I ski with runs a 1 and 3 bevel on identical Fischer Worldcup RC's, I swap ski's and have a hard time getting the ski's to turn and it feels like they want to throw me over the tips. I go back to my ski's with less base and edge bevel and don't have a problem.

Buck
It'snot just a matter of polishing Although 220 is not much of a polishing stone. that is the 2nd stone I use in a progressive of 100, 200, 400, 600, sometimes i go 1000 & 1500 on Gs & speed skis.

the hanging burr is not a polishing issue. Removing the hanging burr msut be the last step after all polishing. Polishing, adds to the hanging burr.

The last step must be a fairly hardstone (I usaully use an Arkansas )flat against the base edge and not a polishing motion but a smooth run from tail to tip in contact with the base edge.
post #71 of 88
Thanks Alpinord! Nice diagram, but I still get the sense Buckwild is not getting it?:
post #72 of 88
Thread Starter 
(FWIW, A-man (or anyone). I've been dumping details on this 'Edge Work' page (which is a work in progress). If it helps you to get your point across, feel free to copy the image links and post the images in the threads, offer critiques on the content there and let me know if it'd help to draw up other details to help illustrate (2d, 3d or animation) the various conditions that get discussed.)
post #73 of 88
I get it, don't be so cruel! The picture was posted when I was responding to you, makes sense now. The snowboarding shot was funny, a local shop had a computer loaded with data from all the boot manufacturers that scans your feet and matchs you to the best boot available. The computer coundn't find a match and I was told "theres always snowboarding". I just starting doing my own tuning last season, I'm still pretty new to it. Thanks for the advise.
post #74 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
(FWIW, A-man (or anyone). I've been dumping details on this 'Edge Work' page (which is a work in progress). If it helps you to get your point across, feel free to copy the image links and post the images in the threads, offer critiques on the content there and let me know if it'd help to draw up other details to help illustrate (2d, 3d or animation) the various conditions that get discussed.)
Great Diagrams!
post #75 of 88
Dont know how many of you saw this in SkiRacing magazine, but it should help with some of the speculating:



post #76 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
Dont know how many of you saw this in SkiRacing magazine, but it should help with some of the speculating:



I think my copy of SR had the base and side specs/column headers reversed! : Maybe I was just reading it backwards - I'll have to pull it out and check, but I remember thinking that when I read it.
post #77 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE1 View Post
I think my copy of SR had the base and side specs/column headers reversed! : Maybe I was just reading it backwards - I'll have to pull it out and check, but I remember thinking that when I read it.
Yeah, they made an error, thats the correction according to their website.
post #78 of 88
I guess I'm not as far off as I had been lead to believe, stubbornly insisting that my speed-event skis worked better at 1/2 than 1.
post #79 of 88

Hi there! I started a new thread about a related subject and I would really like to have your opinion!

http://www.epicski.com/t/119823/base-bevel-for-east-coast-all-mountain-skiing#post_1573065

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

What base bevel(s) do you use on your boards and why? Is it dependent on the type of ski, conditions, terrain, experience, etc?

Personally, I'm at 1° and intend to go back to zero and step it up incrementally to experiment with this season. From an old school, 90° edged. flat ski background and skied everything, I'm curious how it affects me personally with current skis as well as others.

Last season I acquired a used pair of skis with a 2° base bevel that I was able to manage with fine with more angulation, but it definitely took longer to set an edge, but the transitions were easy and smooth. After taking down the base with a body file and resetting the base to 1°, I definitely preferred being quicker and easier from edge to edge, without a downside.

Thanks for your participation and insights.

Did your experiment went ok? What are your conclusions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
the vast majority of skiers (including myself) could not tell the difference of a .5 vs. 1*
Have you tried it back to back with identical skis? I bet you'd surprise yourself.

I'm the first respondent to use .5 and .75 degree bevels. 1 degree on my GS skis and soft snow skis, .75 on my everyday groomer skis, and .5 on my slalom skis. The .75 is a compromise between the immediate edge feel I like from small bevels and the need to deal with some crud or bumps now and again.

Terry I skied a zero degree on a SL ski a couple years back. I had to make a conscious effort in the transitions and they were difficult to stay ahead of. I've skied dead square GS skis and found the same, but the GS skis were less bad..perhaps because they don't hook up so hard at low edge angles as modern SL skis do.

Do you still ski bumps and trees at 0.75 base bevel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
less grabby more versitile. I am not the tuning guru but I think it's pretty safe to say that 1* is plenty for mortals and non-pros. .5 will be more precise on hard pack and ice and provide better grip but unless you ski gates on icy stuff or you really demand precision, you won't notice and in fact, you may find them easier to ski and a bit less demanding.
I’m definitely a non-pro and AFAIK I am mortal
I’ve vowed to do some skiing in Michigan this year and that means hard snow. I’ve got some new skis so this will give me the chance to vary them from day to day and see how I like ‘em best.

Yeah, I was just looking back at Ski Maintenance and Repair. Seth recommends wrapping tape around your file. I’ve never done that but at some point I did get a file guide and started beveling the sides 1*. For the last few years I’ve been on the road 100% of the time I’m skiing so I do the first and last tuning for the season and take ‘em to a shop (either the shop at A-Basin or Alpine Sun in Winter Park) the rest of the time. I tell them to keep the bases flat and do 1* on the edges. I detune with a gummy stone. I remember one day I detuned my (lightly used) m:11s….a lot…. on the hill. I was determined to make them work in firm bumps. Made some progress but ultimately I’d have to say I wasn’t up to the task. It probably would’ve gone a little better if there had been a degree or more of bevel, eh?:

So? Have you tried it at 1°? At 0.75? What base bevel are you on these days???

post #80 of 88

IMO it's pretty hard to figure out optimal beveling without understanding what ski geometry, skier weight/pressure, and turn style it will be applied to.

 

Even among racers skiing the same course and almost identical speeds and turn radii, bevels will be different depending on skier style....for example the following racers have different angulation on exactly the same turn and so will prefer different beveling:

 

 

I agree with other posters that boot fit and alignment is more important than beveling.  .

Beveling basically determines the profile and the ideal angle of gripping pressure of the ski to the snow.  So it will depend on lots of variables.

 

For example, skiers with....

  • ...greater body angulation often prefer larger base bevel angles
  • ...greater turn speed often prefer larger base bevel angles (more centrifugal force in the turn => greater body inclination required to keep the body stacked => greater base bevel)
  • ...small-radius ski sidecuts often prefer larger bevel angles (otherwise skis can hook too early before body is optimally inclinated)
  • ...softer skis often prefer larger bevel angles (ditto small radius)
  • ...quicker turns often prefer smaller bevel angles (easier access to edges)
  • ...greater weight/more power prefer larger bevel angles (helps avoid over-pressuring ski too early)

 

...etc.  

So while poll results are really helpful to satisfy curiosity, they aren't nearly as helpful to figuring what bevel is right for a given skier.

ymmv...

post #81 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by schraderade View Post
 

IMO it's pretty hard to figure out optimal beveling without understanding what ski geometry, skier weight/pressure, and turn style it will be applied to.

 

Even among racers skiing the same course and almost identical speeds and turn radii, bevels will be different depending on skier style....for example the following racers have different angulation on exactly the same turn and so will prefer different beveling:

 

 

I agree with other posters that boot fit and alignment is more important than beveling.  .

Beveling basically determines the profile and the ideal angle of gripping pressure of the ski to the snow.  So it will depend on lots of variables.

 

For example, skiers with....

  • ...greater body angulation often prefer larger base bevel angles
  • ...greater turn speed often prefer larger base bevel angles (more centrifugal force in the turn => greater body inclination required to keep the body stacked => greater base bevel)
  • ...small-radius ski sidecuts often prefer larger bevel angles (otherwise skis can hook too early before body is optimally inclinated)
  • ...softer skis often prefer larger bevel angles (ditto small radius)
  • ...quicker turns often prefer smaller bevel angles (easier access to edges)
  • ...greater weight/more power prefer larger bevel angles (helps avoid over-pressuring ski too early)

 

...etc.  

So while poll results are really helpful to satisfy curiosity, they aren't nearly as helpful to figuring what bevel is right for a given skier.

ymmv...

This is so wrong on so many levels!

post #82 of 88

hi @Atomicman i wouldn't want to spread misinformation so maybe it'd be more useful to readers if you pointed out where this is wrong.

there are a lot of weird myths around beveling that just aren't grounded in science so this topic is kind of like the "speaker wire debate" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire#Quality_debate) of skiing....long on emotion but short on fact.

post #83 of 88
I had to keep minding myself that the topic you were responding to was only about base bevels. Since you left out "base" here and there, maybe that's the issue.
post #84 of 88

My feeling is that base bevel is similar to the old detune on straight skis.  Ski with as little base bevel as you can without it adversely affecting your skiing.

post #85 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

This is so wrong on so many levels!

I will. no time now!  But I knew he was discussing base bevel, that is not the issue!

post #86 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

My feeling is that base bevel is similar to the old detune on straight skis.  Ski with as little base bevel as you can without it adversely affecting your skiing.

 

agreed.....degree of beveling is fundamentally tied to your style of skiing (and type of ski) rather than what "norm" is

post #87 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I will. no time now!  But I knew he was discussing base bevel, that is not the issue!

sounds good man. 

i'm more than happy to be proven wrong....it means i learned something new.  

just saying "you're wrong" is not as helpful, obviously.

take your time.

post #88 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by schraderade View Post
 

 

agreed.....degree of beveling is fundamentally tied to your style of skiing (and type of ski) rather than what "norm" is

For your interest.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/123160/variable-bevels-why

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