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teaching tipping vs pressure and transference to deep powder - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Go stand on your bathroom scale, let it settle on your weight. Then flex or extend with all your might and see if you can make a change and sustain it. Now try pushing down with everything you've got. Does your weight change?
I get a range of 80lbs to 280lbs as I flex and extend. I weigh 170lbs.
post #32 of 57
Easy enough, but you can't sustain it. The scale will wander all over for a second or two, but then will settle back to 170.

If you wish to create a sustained increase in pressure over the skis you've gotta turn 'em (or turn via tipping). To make the pressure go away you have to begin to turn them the other direction (or flatten them). Simply moving along your vertical plane without input from the tipping/turning skills won't do anything constructive while skiing.

Spag
post #33 of 57
I work at a small resort in PA. We don't groom during the day for safety reasons (one sure way to not have people get run over by groomers). In 14 seasons of teaching I've had the luxury to teach beginners in deep (> 10 inches) powder twice. I consider this to be a luxury because my students made much greater progress than average. It's been my experience (including helping people on powder days on vacations out west and instructor staff at my home resort) that it's easy to teach in soft snow regardless of the level of the student. Sometimes it's a different kind of teaching experience than usual, but it's been easier for me than under normal conditions.
post #34 of 57
Not to go crazy with this thread, but put a scale on each foot. I think we are talking about people who teach turning through weight transfer. Clearly, you caneasily put all of your weight on one scale or the other. On groomed snow, that's not a problem. Do that in pow, you are probably going to wreck.
post #35 of 57
Thread Starter 
Spagg and Epic,
Your posts ring true with my experience. 1st teaching in Michigan and 2nd the difficulties I've had adjusting my own technique when I do get out west.

I was originally taught to turn by shifting weight to the new outside ski 20 some years ago. It worked fine in MI but was a disaster in Utah.

My last trip to Utah I struggeled to adjust, although I at least understood what was going on.

In my teaching I start with tipping and/or rotary and try to create awareness of pressure changes and after students are turning. Teaching pressure control comes farther along the learning curve.

My original question is still about does creating a dominate focus in a student set them up for faster skill development when deep powder becomes available.
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Not to go crazy with this thread, but put a scale on each foot. I think we are talking about people who teach turning through weight transfer. Clearly, you caneasily put all of your weight on one scale or the other. On groomed snow, that's not a problem. Do that in pow, you are probably going to wreck.
That is one of the biggest problems with todays carving techique, it really does not work in powder (or bumps). We need to be able to form one platform underneath our skis not two, because and especially if we have a wide stance not only do we have to worrie about sinking down with one foot while the other stays high causing us to lose balance sideways, our stance becomes very very unstable in the for aft direction causing our hips and upper body to rotate as we hit uneven layers of snow. In powder and bumps; skis together, two footed stance, controlled speed, fast line slow, leg pumping, unweighting.... on groomers; skis wider apart, outsid ski dominance, faster skiing, slow line fast, tipping...
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZOOSKI View Post
My original question is still about does creating a dominate focus in a student set them up for faster skill development when deep powder becomes available.
This sentance does not make any sence to me....
post #38 of 57
Teaching beginners (or most anyone, for that matter) is easy in soft snow for a lotta reasons, but IMHO it's because the snow is Quiet. That is to say hard, noisy snow makes people nervous. They feel like they have to push into it to get grip, causing tension. In soft snow, the skis build platforms easily. The slightest tipping will give them edge hold.

The challenges arrive when the speed picks up and we don't have a handle on our foot-to-foot awareness, like tdk6 suggests. For the most part, I'd much rather teach in about 4" of fluff than what our area refers to as "Packed Powder" conditions.

As far as the original question goes, I think there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. A good instructor can attack any student's needs thru just about any of the skill sets and get a result, if he/she knows what the final product is. (It's always fun balancing the student's wishes with their actual need. It's a fine line to walk, for sure. And probably topic for a new thread.)

Spag

PS. We might make note of this thread as maybe the first time tdk6 and I have been in agreement! Maybe there's hope for us yet!
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Teaching beginners (or most anyone, for that matter) is easy in soft snow for a lotta reasons, but IMHO it's because the snow is Quiet.
It probably depends on where you are skiing. Most beginners/intermediate I've seen have a tough time with the heavier PNW snow when it hits 6"+.
post #40 of 57
Rusty,
I taught and was a staff trainer at a small resort for two decades. If we needed to stomp out the corral, the lift maze, etc., the whole staff pitched in and got it done. It was just part of the job. Same thing happens in Aspen, helping out the other departments is expected.


Spag, Bathroom scales? Do you ski on your bathroom floor? Static bathroom exercises have very little to do with skiing and implying otherwise erroneously assumes the forces encountered are the same. If you want to measure dynamic forces out on the hill, you need to be out on the hill. The last study I read was from the Swiss and the pressure developed by the subjects was surprisingly consistent turn after turn.

Kazoo,
Yes there is a focus but it is not on just one skill in isolation. The variable snow eliminates that option. A bias towards a particular skill might be a better way to describe this because it implies we still use all of the skills, just in a different blend.
post #41 of 57
Kazooski...as I had mentioned in my last post..tipping alone will not get the job done...the skis need to be pressured to create a platform with which they can rebound from. Once the rebound happens ,redirecting (ie:tipping the skis) will allow you to enter the next turn. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePxOVcXEOfM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZOOSKI View Post
This question keeps bubbeling to the front of my brain.

We've debated the value of focusing on tipping the ski vs pressuring the ski while teaching introductory and low level lessons. Keep in mind there is more then one correct answer. My experience in deep powder has been that focusing on pressuring the outside ski is disasterous, and it wasn't really that deep.

This leads to my question. Does teaching tipping to turn, lead to a student being able to ski deep powder quicker then if they are taught pressure to turn?

Any one teaching where there really is deep powder have experience to share?
post #42 of 57
KAZOOSKI, Being a new powder skier I have found that pressure on both skis works great. I have found that tipping alone only makes my skis track straight, And I am unable to turn. I enjoyed watching Silvrfox's powder sking video. I was able to see how pushing on both skis is essential to turning.
post #43 of 57
Ok Justanother. Let's take it to the hill. From a traverse, do ONLY an extension. (no tipping or turning) What happens?
.
.
.
.
Nothing.

If anything other than "nothing" happens, and a change in direction occurs, we have accomplished some degree of tipping or turning. And as a result a change in SUSTAINABLE pressure as well. All I'm saying is that Flexing or Extending is not the impetus for the change in pressure. It is the means by which we react to those changes. The chang in pressure acts as an outside force that must (should) be responded to. Any movement we use for pressure control (along our vertical plane), be it reactive or anticipatory, will only allow us to regulate something that has, or is going to, happen regardless of what we do.

Which leads me to another question: Aside from foot-to-foot transfer, How does one "pressure" their skis?
Spag
post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Ok Justanother. Let's take it to the hill. From a traverse, do ONLY an extension. (no tipping or turning) What happens?
.
.
.
.
Nothing.

If anything other than "nothing" happens, and a change in direction occurs, we have accomplished some degree of tipping or turning. And as a result a change in SUSTAINABLE pressure as well. All I'm saying is that Flexing or Extending is not the impetus for the change in pressure. It is the means by which we react to those changes. The chang in pressure acts as an outside force that must (should) be responded to. Any movement we use for pressure control (along our vertical plane), be it reactive or anticipatory, will only allow us to regulate something that has, or is going to, happen regardless of what we do.

Which leads me to another question: Aside from foot-to-foot transfer, How does one "pressure" their skis?
Spag
Notorious Spag, great to hear we agree on something. You are however confusing me a bit, what exactly is "turning" in your opinion? Isnt tipping part of turning?

IMHO
After you extend to unweight as your extention ends abruptly as your limbs align straight and you feel the pressure on your feet diminish you pull up your feet just slightly and twist your skis and offset your body to the inside in order to get some tipping happening and to be able to counter the centrifugal forces staring to pull on you as your skis overstear as a result of the legg pivot and as you sink back down the skis decamber and the edges get engaged and you turn. Then you balance. It is the exact same progression we use when we make a normal skidded turn on a groomer.

Normal misstake in deep snow is to lean too much into the turn causing you to fall downhill. Annother misstake is to not be patient enough to moderately twist your leggs as you reach all the way up but to heavily rotate into the turn with upper body and hipps rotatin towards the outside. Its all a question of timing and simultanious movements.

Silverfox, great video clip . Thanks for posting, who is it?

Im not sure what the original question is anymore but both arcing and deep snow skiing is difficult because you are locked in a sertain turn radius and its not possible to make corrections by sudden change in skidding.
post #45 of 57
Spag,
Not sure how we ended up doing an exercise like a traverse when we are talking about deep powder skiing but since you bring it up...
Leapers are an exercise that immediately comes to mind. An active extension of the legs creates enough upward momentum to go airborne. So yes a change in direction has happened, you went upward. Don't forget we are talking about a movement in a three dimensional model.
Now let's consider what an extension does during a turn. It adds pressure to a working ski which depending on where you apply it, either tightens the turn, causes the tail to wash because you are pushing out the tails, or pivots the skis if you lever forward on the tip. All without changing the edge angle or adding rotary. Which should answer your question about how to pressure your skis other than foot to foot.
Can we get back to the topic of skiing powder now?
post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Notorious Spag, great to hear we agree on something. You are however confusing me a bit, what exactly is "turning" in your opinion? Isnt tipping part of turning?

IMHO
After you extend to unweight as your extention ends abruptly as your limbs align straight and you feel the pressure on your feet diminish you pull up your feet just slightly and twist your skis and offset your body to the inside in order to get some tipping happening and to be able to counter the centrifugal forces staring to pull on you as your skis overstear as a result of the legg pivot and as you sink back down the skis decamber and the edges get engaged and you turn. Then you balance. It is the exact same progression we use when we make a normal skidded turn on a groomer.

Normal misstake in deep snow is to lean too much into the turn causing you to fall downhill. Annother misstake is to not be patient enough to moderately twist your leggs as you reach all the way up but to heavily rotate into the turn with upper body and hipps rotatin towards the outside. Its all a question of timing and simultanious movements.

Silverfox, great video clip . Thanks for posting, who is it?

Im not sure what the original question is anymore but both arcing and deep snow skiing is difficult because you are locked in a sertain turn radius and its not possible to make corrections by sudden change in skidding.
tdk6, thanks...it is me skiing this past winter.
post #47 of 57
Float and sting is what the powder skier should be thinking.That is ski on edge or tipped, apply pressure and ride out the natural arc of the ski created by how much edge you tipped and pressure you applied early in the turn as possible.
post #48 of 57
Yeah tdk6. I like what you've said about carving vs. powder technique. As you will remember, we will disagree on the role of flexing/extending in the ski turn. But we've come to loggerheads on that before. (wink)

When I discuss turning, I'm talking about the rotation in the legs that re-directs the skis. Steering, if you will. And, (Are you ready for this?) I believe that tipping is a derivative of that rotary, where the femur must rotate inward or outward to tip the ski on edge. That being because the knee is a hinge joint. It is PASSIVE rotary for sure, as the focus is definitely to tip the ski on its edge (or off), but it exists all the same. (I'm sorry folks, I've definitely been a party to the total de-railment of this thread.)

Justanother. I bring scales and traverses into the discussion to try and create an understandable vision for what I am saying. Powder skiing has within it all the same basic movement patterns as cruising and carving, only mixed differently. So why can't we discuss them? It's all skiing after all! I'm not trying to shoot you down, only explain myself. Because, frankly, you asked. I've known for a long time that my opinions about the ski turn don't gel with some, and that's OK. I've always learned a lot here from many who I don't agree with. I simply use the stuff I grasp, pocket stuff I can use in the future, and discard that that I don't believe will work. But that's all just a judgement call, and therefore, my opinion. If what I say doesn't work for you, find something that does. Maybe down the road we may harmonize on a subject, but this doesn't seem to be the one, eh?

Spag
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post
Float and sting is what the powder skier should be thinking.That is ski on edge or tipped, apply pressure and ride out the natural arc of the ski created by how much edge you tipped and pressure you applied early in the turn as possible.

CVJ, That is a very nice tip. Float and sting!!!!!!! yee haa........ You can not sting hard enough.....
post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Yeah tdk6. I like what you've said about carving vs. powder technique. As you will remember, we will disagree on the role of flexing/extending in the ski turn. But we've come to loggerheads on that before. (wink)

When I discuss turning, I'm talking about the rotation in the legs that re-directs the skis. Steering, if you will. And, (Are you ready for this?) I believe that tipping is a derivative of that rotary, where the femur must rotate inward or outward to tip the ski on edge. That being because the knee is a hinge joint. It is PASSIVE rotary for sure, as the focus is definitely to tip the ski on its edge (or off), but it exists all the same. (I'm sorry folks, I've definitely been a party to the total de-railment of this thread.)

Justanother. I bring scales and traverses into the discussion to try and create an understandable vision for what I am saying. Powder skiing has within it all the same basic movement patterns as cruising and carving, only mixed differently. So why can't we discuss them? It's all skiing after all! I'm not trying to shoot you down, only explain myself. Because, frankly, you asked. I've known for a long time that my opinions about the ski turn don't gel with some, and that's OK. I've always learned a lot here from many who I don't agree with. I simply use the stuff I grasp, pocket stuff I can use in the future, and discard that that I don't believe will work. But that's all just a judgement call, and therefore, my opinion. If what I say doesn't work for you, find something that does. Maybe down the road we may harmonize on a subject, but this doesn't seem to be the one, eh?

Spag
I agree that powder skiing intricically has all the same movements as groomed skiing only applied in a different manner. I find that my bodypositon is longer at the end of the turn in pwd skiing, as opposed to a shorter, more compressed body position at the end of a turn in groomed skiing. Both of these diametrically opposed positions apply the same forces to the skis necessary to make a turn in two different media.
post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Yeah tdk6. I like what you've said about carving vs. powder technique. As you will remember, we will disagree on the role of flexing/extending in the ski turn. But we've come to loggerheads on that before. (wink)

When I discuss turning, I'm talking about the rotation in the legs that re-directs the skis. Steering, if you will. And, (Are you ready for this?) I believe that tipping is a derivative of that rotary, where the femur must rotate inward or outward to tip the ski on edge. That being because the knee is a hinge joint. It is PASSIVE rotary for sure, as the focus is definitely to tip the ski on its edge (or off), but it exists all the same. (I'm sorry folks, I've definitely been a party to the total de-railment of this thread.)

Justanother. I bring scales and traverses into the discussion to try and create an understandable vision for what I am saying. Powder skiing has within it all the same basic movement patterns as cruising and carving, only mixed differently. So why can't we discuss them? It's all skiing after all! I'm not trying to shoot you down, only explain myself. Because, frankly, you asked. I've known for a long time that my opinions about the ski turn don't gel with some, and that's OK. I've always learned a lot here from many who I don't agree with. I simply use the stuff I grasp, pocket stuff I can use in the future, and discard that that I don't believe will work. But that's all just a judgement call, and therefore, my opinion. If what I say doesn't work for you, find something that does. Maybe down the road we may harmonize on a subject, but this doesn't seem to be the one, eh?

Spag
I agree that powder skiing intricically has all the same movements as groomed skiing only applied in a different manner. I find that my bodypositon is longer at the end of the turn in pwd skiing, as opposed to a shorter, more compressed body position at the end of a turn in groomed skiing. Both of these diametrically opposed positions apply the same forces to the skis necessary to make a turn in two different media.
post #52 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZOOSKI View Post
This question keeps bubbeling to the front of my brain.

We've debated the value of focusing on tipping the ski vs pressuring the ski while teaching introductory and low level lessons. Keep in mind there is more then one correct answer. My experience in deep powder has been that focusing on pressuring the outside ski is disasterous, and it wasn't really that deep.

This leads to my question. Does teaching tipping to turn, lead to a student being able to ski deep powder quicker then if they are taught pressure to turn?

Any one teaching where there really is deep powder have experience to share?
To me this is like asking whether it is better to teach tipping versus pressuring the skis when learning to ski bumps. Truth is we need to do both effectively in powder. But in powder as in bumps I find effective pressure control to be what holds most people back early on. In deep powder where we have to create pressure and decamber the ski over it's entire bottom in a soft medium versus the more firm groomer environment where we can use the ski's edge and sidecut to accomplish. Not that the ski's geometry doesn't work in powder, it is just that my experience has shown me that (generalization coming) most people find the pressure control management, including foot to foot pressure management, harder to master than managing their foot tipping movements in soft snow.

Ideally I want to get my students to where they have nice round turn shape and utilize ski geometry to the max and more equal pressure between the feet. However in soft deep snow this does require more refined and active pressure management (read extension and flexion) or the skier will struggle and find themselves forcing and muscling their turns.

So to sum it up, generally speaking I tend to find myself working with my students more initially with pressure control than with tipping skills when teaching introduction to powder. As I said earlier, the same is usually true in intro bumps too, for the same reasons. Good pressure management, well timed extension and flexion, allows our body to to move effectively in ways that just won't happen if pressure management is lacking. This gives us the ability to maintain dynamic balance and to utilize effective tipping and rotary skills. If we can't management how can we manage our balance? It is the difference between being a driver in control versus being a rider with ineffective control.

Off course this is all dependant on student variables.
post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
To me this is like asking whether it is better to teach tipping versus pressuring the skis when learning to ski bumps. Truth is we need to do both effectively in powder. But in powder as in bumps I find effective pressure control to be what holds most people back early on. In deep powder where we have to create pressure and decamber the ski over it's entire bottom in a soft medium versus the more firm groomer environment where we can use the ski's edge and sidecut to accomplish. Not that the ski's geometry doesn't work in powder, it is just that my experience has shown me that (generalization coming) most people find the pressure control management, including foot to foot pressure management, harder to master than managing their foot tipping movements in soft snow.
Agreed. On hard firms snow overpressuring one ski or the other or both will not change things too much; the snow will resist and if you are carving a turn the turn shape depends on the tipping angle. In deep soft snow over-pressuring a soft ski will cause it to decamber too much and over-pressuring a stiff ski will cause it to loose ground.

Going back to my learning, the key was not just tipping, but why I was tipping. I was tipping to create that curved "platform" (at the edge on boiler plate). A simple tip to think of creating a single platform with the bases of my two skis was all it took to transition from boiler-plate to powder. It still required a bit of balance to get enough tipping to balance centripetal force while avoiding too much tipping and the consequential diving.

Bathroom scales: A sudden depressuring or pressuring of the ski causes the ski to momentarily change its decambered shape. Changing turn shape at a non-inconsequential speed will affect centipetal force and ergo result in a sustained change in pressure.
post #54 of 57
Sometimes that may be all it takes Ghost. On the other hand making a single platform out of two skis to some may translate to gluing the skis together. I like to approach it from the perspective of asking my students to make extension and flexion movements that will require both skis, feet and legs to be active in coordinated manner.

Powder can be a strange beast from the touch and feel side of the equation initially. I teach in deep powder alot and it is always interesting to see how different people react to the same conditions. Sometimes a simple focus on steering will help make big changes, sometimes tipping, but in general I have found that developing effective pressure control movements is what makes the biggest changes in my students when first learning powder. Not just in establishing a single platform under both feet, but also in the ability to slowly extend into the turn and to slowly flex to release the skis and body out of the turn. Developing that rhythm in the feet and legs that allow the skis to porpoise up and down in the snow under a stable upper body, creating pressure and releasing pressure.

Gosh am I jonesing for some pow right now.
post #55 of 57
The cure for the glued together skis is to tell them it's easier to balance on a sheet of plywood than a two-by-six.
The image of a board bending under pressure is also a good visual for pressure affecting turn shape.
post #56 of 57
Those are both good. Still one should not give a cue to someone that creates another problem to be solved, As in cues that may encourage people to clamp their feet together. This is why I prefer to work with things that elicit positive applicable movements and require the feet to be, maybe narrower, but still a functional distance apart. IN the end I'm willing to go anywhere with a student as long it leads to more effective movements and more versatile skiing.

Talking about plywood and 2x6's works if a particular person can relate to these items. Being a builder it works for me.
post #57 of 57
When I weight one ski in deep snow more than the other, in addition to the depth differences, the direction of the skis diverge. Fat & fatter skis float better, so work as a bandaid for this problem

I like to visualize an airplane banking in a turn, and both skis together banking around a turn down in the snow. When I choose to end the turn, I pull my knees up and slightly, subtly put weight on my heels (equally). The skis pop up, then I tip the pair of them to the other side and make that turn starting with slight, subtle tip pressure and leg extension. If you don't do subtle, just keep your balance centered. That moment of turn transition is beautiful weightlessness.
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