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A Challenge - Page 2

post #31 of 52
As a way of enhancing the experience for "newbies", I've long thought that treating the forums like a day at the mountain might be a benefit. i.e. ..

Free forums - totally open discussion (with moderation to keep things civil), just like you'd get riding up the chair with whomever you paired up with in line. You might get lucky and sit next to Bode and get a whole heap of WC-level stuff. A newbie might not even recognize Bode and think the guy was feeding him a load of dung. On the other hand, you might ride up with a real confident type who just started skiing yesterday and thinks he's conquered the mountain. ...enjoy the ride. The info is worth what you're paying. Nada. You play in this arena, you take the good with the bad. Personally I think the diversity is enlightening and frustrating at the same time. Someone inexperienced may hold firm to something that isn't likely to bear fruit, but it might just be the same belief model that the next "student" walks into a lesson with. Can't deal with it here, how do you deal with it there? Authoritarian ... "you vill not think that way"? Or ...

If a newbie isn't willing to pony up $20 for filtered info, their ride here won't be any different than a ride of fate up the lift.

Supporter forums - open discussion forums and limited forums like the boot experts forum where for a very nominal fee ($20) inexperienced (and experienced alike) can get "filtered" information from selected contributors with experience. The key being experience and hopefully representing a broad base of emerging and "proven" lines of thought. Now you've hired your group tutor(s) and can listen or not listen to the information provided.

ESA forums - filtered discussion. Private sessions with chosen coaches. This is the "business end" of the EpicSki organization. The organization is interested in all things snow sports related, but also reserves this space for it's own special "spin" and interaction with participants. i.e private lesson time.

As it exists today, EpicSki isn't too far from this type of structure. However, the open but patrolled free forums are ripe for clashes - intentional and unintentional. People (moderators) will interpret guidelines in different ways because they are human, which opens the door for misunderstandings and turf protection by all sides.

Managed with forethought, EpicSki can do what other sites have been unable to do - foster diversity, while reserving space for it's own core beliefs. It may be Pollyannaish to think it's possible, but it is close to that now.

The possible conflict that I see is from long time subscribers who feel a $20 supporting contribution should allow them free speech and access to any and all parts of the site. Amazing value that existed in the past. That much fruit hanging low on the tree just never lasts forever. It can't - it will either get eaten or it will rot. EpicSki seems to be working hard to eat a little and preserve the rest.
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
SSH, my character is attacked on a relatively frequent basis by a couple of members. Do the mods send PMs or otherwise mod those posts? I'm happy to provide links if you don't know what I'm referring to.
That's what the post report function is intended to facilitate. And yes, if it's happening, don't expect the mod team to know about it if you don't report it. In some cases if the target doesn't object, it may just slide (under the goal of moderating as little as possible).
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
As a way of enhancing the experience for "newbies", I've long thought that treating the forums like a day at the mountain might be a benefit. i.e. ..

Free forums - totally open discussion (with moderation to keep things civil), just like you'd get riding up the chair with whomever you paired up with in line. You might get lucky and sit next to Bode and get a whole heap of WC-level stuff. A newbie might not even recognize Bode and think the guy was feeding him a load of dung. On the other hand, you might ride up with a real confident type who just started skiing yesterday and thinks he's conquered the mountain. ...enjoy the ride. The info is worth what you're paying. Nada. You play in this arena, you take the good with the bad. Personally I think the diversity is enlightening and frustrating at the same time. Someone inexperienced may hold firm to something that isn't likely to bear fruit, but it might just be the same belief model that the next "student" walks into a lesson with. Can't deal with it here, how do you deal with it there? Authoritarian ... "you vill not think that way"? Or ...

If a newbie isn't willing to pony up $20 for filtered info, their ride here won't be any different than a ride of fate up the lift.

Supporter forums - open discussion forums and limited forums like the boot experts forum where for a very nominal fee ($20) inexperienced (and experienced alike) can get "filtered" information from selected contributors with experience. The key being experience and hopefully representing a broad base of emerging and "proven" lines of thought. Now you've hired your group tutor(s) and can listen or not listen to the information provided.

ESA forums - filtered discussion. Private sessions with chosen coaches. This is the "business end" of the EpicSki organization. The organization is interested in all things snow sports related, but also reserves this space for it's own special "spin" and interaction with participants. i.e private lesson time.

As it exists today, EpicSki isn't too far from this type of structure. However, the open but patrolled free forums are ripe for clashes - intentional and unintentional. People (moderators) will interpret guidelines in different ways because they are human, which opens the door for misunderstandings and turf protection by all sides.

Managed with forethought, EpicSki can do what other sites have been unable to do - foster diversity, while reserving space for it's own core beliefs. It may be Pollyannaish to think it's possible, but it is close to that now.

The possible conflict that I see is from long time subscribers who feel a $20 supporting contribution should allow them free speech and access to any and all parts of the site. Amazing value that existed in the past. That much fruit hanging low on the tree just never lasts forever. It can't - it will either get eaten or it will rot. EpicSki seems to be working hard to eat a little and preserve the rest.
medmarkco, brilliant and well-stated. You're exactly right that this is pretty much the goal of the team. You said it better than I could, for sure. I can't think of anything to add. Thanks, friend, well done.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Originally Posted by Posting Guidelines
Ad hominem attacks of forum members will not be tolerated. Argue all you want against any idea brought up in the forums but don't attack any person's character for voicing an arguable idea. Be open-minded and try to help foster meaningful discussion. Yes, meaningful discussion is possible if everyone respects each other's unalienable human right to have their own viewpoint.
Steve, you're right about it being hard to judge intent. But knowing the facts and happenings, and putting them together, can give you a pretty good idea. I'm not going to discuss the details of the issue I referred to, as I know you guys frown on that. That's why I refrained in my original post. But I will say, when it comes to knowing them I suspect I may be privy to some even you are not. At least I hope so, and I think you know why I say that. I still harbor hope.

Now, as to the above posting guidelines. It's a great rule,,, one which I fully support and encourage. But rules are only as good as the manner in which they are enforced. Moderators are only human, and bias can enter the picture. Example: how the heck did the "Highway needs a new ski" thread not violate the above guideline? Clearly the thread was intended only to attack a forum member. The thread starter even admitted in a later post to his ill feelings toward Highway Star, yet no less than 7 moderators participated in the "fun" for some time, with no protest.

And,,, how does this statement, by one of the sites moderators, not violate the above guideline about Ad Hominem attacks too? (directed at me in this thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic
I think most of the readers of EpicSki are smart enough to see how full of it you are
In light of the above inconsistencies, is it really so hard to see that my viewpoint carries at least a smidgeon of potential for validity? You guys are trying to run a business here. Any business, to be successful, needs management team that can step back and take an objective look at themselves and how they're operating.. To listen to what the people who represent their clientele/market have to say,,, how they see the business and the product,,, not to argue with and belittle their perception. Their perception is the only thing that really matters. That's where you went wrong in the situation I mentioned. It could have been resolved so easily, so early, had that approach been taken. Do you even understand how?
post #35 of 52
Believe it or not, guys, I really do have a desire to see things get better. That really is my objective here. Why I've spent the time and effort to post what I knew would draw less than a warm reception from some ears. Why I was willing to make the sacrifice I did tonight. I've been here for awhile now,,, over 3000 posts,,, most in the form of technical advice on the instructional forum. Can't even calculate the hours I spent composing those posts carefully so people could comprehend the messages. I do care about this place,,, seeing it be as good as it was, and aspire to what it has the potential to be.
post #36 of 52
Part of the problem here is that you have at least four different approaches to ski technqiue, each of which is fundamentally different from the others.

PSIA
PMTS
Waist Steering
Gurshman's Youcanski.com

It's tough to reach a conclusion on technique when you have these sort of wide ranging ideas on the subject.

However, on ES as it now stands, chances are that you'll have someone put up a post in which he says he has found common ground between these four systems and that my point is actually wrong. Then, some other posters come in and agree with him, while others agree with me.

Bear in mind that each of the above-mentioned systems took years to develop by serious, dedicated people who struggled in creating something new. Yet, you have someone come into a thread on ES and, in a few minutes, come up with a solution.

The underlying problem here is that skiing, like most activities that require skill development over several years, is something that requires serious study. It cannot be learned simply by participating in a forum like ES. It requires reading, studying videos, long term physical conditioning, lessons and coaching on the hill, and then practice by the individual. If some of the people here would actually make a point of discovering the sort of training that elite athletes do to get and stay where they are, they would be really shocked at the amount of time, effort, personel and money it takes just to develop one athlete. That fact stands in sharp contrast to the cavalier retorts that are ruining ES.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
SSH, my character is attacked on a relatively frequent basis by a couple of members. Do the mods send PMs or otherwise mod those posts? I'm happy to provide links if you don't know what I'm referring to.
psssst Max. "report post" I can't stomach reading past page 2 or 3 of "those" threads which I'm guessing is where this occurs.
post #38 of 52
Thread Starter 
I'm probably guilty of a personal attack here and I do appologize for that. My intention is not to berate the person but only to improve a situation which I see as part of the roots of a serious problem with the Instruction forums. I've been here for many years and have seen the decline. I'm just trying to get people to understand that their passion for their learning system is dominating the forums to the point of disruption. Dominating the post count in many threads with relentless questioning of other persons theories and thoughts. To the point of those valuable members not participating at all anymore. I don't think it's right or good for Epic Ski and if the Moderators can't do anything about it, maybe it's our job to police these kinds of tactics.

So, I'm pleading to these people, and you know who you are, please, understand what you are doing. If you care anything about Epic Ski and the Technical Forums, police yourself and think about what you are doing and saying and your motives for posting.

If not, please just leave.
post #39 of 52
I'm much more a surfer than a poster, but I've followed the Epic instruction forum for about a year. In late spring 06, I made a commitment to improve the level of my skiing and realized the only way to do this is to become much better informed about the mechanics of skiing. I value the diversity of both ski techniques and individual posters. Anyone who reads the responses to Nolo’s broader questions about serving the needs of skiers has to realize the value of diversity without the need of imposing the “right” response on others. My instruction needs are best served reading a book and watching CD or video. I’ve chosen a particular school of skiing to follow but fully appreciate that others will choose a path as they see fit.
Let me pinpoint my specific issue. Entirely too many technique threads get hijacked by the usual suspects who reopen old issues. Exhibit A is the type of banter displayed in the following post, with the caveat that at least they did not hijack someone else’s post: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=58595
In my world, this type of posting makes the poster irrelevant plus it destroys the value of the contributions and time by others in the life of some great post subjects.
I’m a believer in self-policing with mods have “timeout” power.
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by med View Post
I'm much more a surfer than a poster, but I've followed the Epic instruction forum for about a year. In late spring 06, I made a commitment to improve the level of my skiing and realized the only way to do this is to become much better informed about the mechanics of skiing. I value the diversity of both ski techniques and individual posters. Anyone who reads the responses to Nolo’s broader questions about serving the needs of skiers has to realize the value of diversity without the need of imposing the “right” response on others. My instruction needs are best served reading a book and watching CD or video. I’ve chosen a particular school of skiing to follow but fully appreciate that others will choose a path as they see fit.
Let me pinpoint my specific issue. Entirely too many technique threads get hijacked by the usual suspects who reopen old issues. Exhibit A is the type of banter displayed in the following post, with the caveat that at least they did not hijack someone else’s post: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=58595
In my world, this type of posting makes the poster irrelevant plus it destroys the value of the contributions and time by others in the life of some great post subjects.
I’m a believer in self-policing with mods have “timeout” power.
Sorry I for one dont see anything wrong with that thread, there were a few comedic comments thrown in, but the thread stayed on topic.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
Sorry I for one dont see anything wrong with that thread, there were a few comedic comments thrown in, but the thread stayed on topic.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Let me expand. Yes, this thread stays on topic and I don't have issues with this thread as it's title clearly states what you will be reading about. If you read the post, it's mostly between Max and BigE and my point is not to single them out.

I have no time for overdone point - counterpoint culture that exists today. When I look at many other posts, what is seen is the back and forth arguing between 2 posters that is off the point and/or overredundant. For the rest of us, interested in the primary thread, it's a waste of time. Why anyone spends the time to do a legitimate post in these drawn out threads is beyond my comprehension.l
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by med View Post
Why anyone spends the time to do a legitimate post in these drawn out threads is beyond my comprehension.l
Yeah, mine too! Oh, never mind...
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Believe it or not, guys, I really do have a desire to see things get better. That really is my objective here. Why I've spent the time and effort to post what I knew would draw less than a warm reception from some ears. Why I was willing to make the sacrifice I did tonight. I've been here for awhile now,,, over 3000 posts,,, most in the form of technical advice on the instructional forum. Can't even calculate the hours I spent composing those posts carefully so people could comprehend the messages. I do care about this place,,, seeing it be as good as it was, and aspire to what it has the potential to be.
FWIW, that's pretty much how all of the moderators, administrators, and other management team members feel. I get your perspective, I think. I understand that it's important that management teams understand perspective (and in fact do this with my business clients), and I'm also aware that they need to balance a wide range of perspectives. Sometimes, people may feel that they are not being heard because their perspective is not the one most widely recognized or is not acted on as quickly as they would like.

I think around here, it's best to assume that people on the teams are good-willed and doing what they are doing out of love for the sport and EpicSki. If you start from a different premise, you're likely to draw false conclusions.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by med View Post
I have no time for overdone point - counterpoint culture that exists today. When I look at many other posts, what is seen is the back and forth arguing between 2 posters that is off the point and/or overredundant. For the rest of us, interested in the primary thread, it's a waste of time. Why anyone spends the time to do a legitimate post in these drawn out threads is beyond my comprehension.l
If everyone took this as personal advice, the issues would go away of their own accord.

That way, we'd have a lot less of this:
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
...everyone is entitled to give their opinion...those who disagree should challenge...in a mature and intellectual manner.
This would help the whole affair. Childish sniping bores wisdom.
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Rick I call BUNK! I was just going to moderate your post, because it is totally over the line. The truth is though, that I think most of the readers of EpicSki are smart enough to see how full of it you are. I'm leaving it so others can form thier own opinions. If you don't like the site then LEAVE!
There you have it. Lars if you want to know why some of the best ski minds have left this forum...that is exactly why...comments like this one. I agree with Rick by the way.
post #47 of 52

Its all good

Quote:
Originally Posted by boardboy View Post
Part of the problem here is that you have at least four different approaches to ski technqiue, each of which is fundamentally different from the others.

PSIA
PMTS
Waist Steering
Gurshman's Youcanski.com

It's tough to reach a conclusion on technique when you have these sort of wide ranging ideas on the subject.

However, on ES as it now stands, chances are that you'll have someone put up a post in which he says he has found common ground between these four systems and that my point is actually wrong. Then, some other posters come in and agree with him, while others agree with me.

Bear in mind that each of the above-mentioned systems took years to develop by serious, dedicated people who struggled in creating something new. Yet, you have someone come into a thread on ES and, in a few minutes, come up with a solution.

The underlying problem here is that skiing, like most activities that require skill development over several years, is something that requires serious study. It cannot be learned simply by participating in a forum like ES. It requires reading, studying videos, long term physical conditioning, lessons and coaching on the hill, and then practice by the individual. If some of the people here would actually make a point of discovering the sort of training that elite athletes do to get and stay where they are, they would be really shocked at the amount of time, effort, personel and money it takes just to develop one athlete. That fact stands in sharp contrast to the cavalier retorts that are ruining ES.
Been lurking and I don't wish to add to what has already been said, being one of the posters, enjoyed or not, respected or not, that has taken my leave due to circular, never ending, yes, mine is better than yours, never-ending arguments over semantics. I must say that BB has summarized things very neatly here. I will embellish a bit more to what BB said above

Quote:
Bear in mind that each of the above-mentioned systems took years to develop by serious, dedicated people who struggled in creating something new. Yet, you have someone come into a thread on ES and, in a few minutes, come up with a solution.
The same sort of time, effort, personnel and money go into developing systems to develop the athletes, regardless of if its for the recreational racer with Master level aspirations or the young FIS phenom. The systems all have merit, all have concepts in common, regardless of the techno speak/Jargon (and we all have it, its part of the evolutionary or development process) they should all be respected. Its hard to do with a bunch of noise about who knows what and who doesn't, who's an authority or not, who can ski or not and so on. Whether the system is for the public or the elite, they have their place and are being developed by devoted and dedicated individuals who have probably cut their teeth in the sport they are trying to promote and improve or expand.

No need for the intra-system wars but he who cast the first stone should be recognized and one would hope the culture would be self-policing enough to stop the noise and keep it to the facts and commonly understood principles.

ES should be and has been a great forum for discussing technique, systems, etc. rather than a great debate system over what's right and what's not.

JMHO
post #48 of 52

Appending,,,,

Quote:
rather than a great debate system over what's right and what's not.-GD
Unless of course its complete BUNK
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dranow View Post
ES should be and has been a great forum for discussing technique, systems, etc. rather than a great debate system over what's right and what's not.
Debating is part of our culture (think politics) and is likely to continue to be part of discussing ski technique in an open forum. Do you guys remember the Tai Chi skiing system?
post #50 of 52

Careful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Debating is part of our culture (think politics) and is likely to continue to be part of discussing ski technique in an open forum. Do you guys remember the Tai Chi skiing system?
No, I just remember TCS and Flatboarding, same thing? And Max, are you trying to conjure someone back to the fold here

My point exactly appending above Debate is fine, not endless superfluous arguments that have no purpose but to fuel themselves or worse, promote something that doesn't need promoting.
post #51 of 52
Is this an argument? Yes it is, no its not, yes it is...gotta love Monty Python
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58 View Post
Is this an argument? Yes it is, no its not, yes it is...gotta love Monty Python
No, its a late Parrot
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