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Carving Disussion From "The SVMM Approach To Mogul Skiing" - Page 4  

post #91 of 114
In bumps there are a lot of things different than on a groomer. You can have a less effective carving action but you will slam into the next bump somewhat, but that bump slam will provide you a path changing force. So in bumps you can pivot more...hit the bump with your skiis already turned a little sideways and that will cause the change in movement direction that I associated with carving above to happen. The bump itself does it.

They use pivoting to get their skis turned across the fall line faster than they are able to do with a pure carve. But the use of pivoting does not exclude entirely the presence of carving. It merely diminishes it and diminishes the ability to follow a tighter curved path across the snow while simultaneously increasing the amount of redirection the skis are getting to get pointed across the falline faster.

However, you can be smoother by extending down the backside of the previous bump, engaging your edges and getting the skis to follow a curved path well before hitting the top of the next bump.

THAT IS CARVING THE BUMPS.

This will reduce the slammage into that next bump. Of course you may have to provide some pivoting also if they are tight bumps. Pure carving may not always be enough to keep your ski tips from slamming head on into the next bump. The pivoting will get your ski tips back to the zipper, but since its not changing the direction your COM is moving, its going to increase the slam factor on the next bump.

According to me, carving and pivoting are not 100% mutually exclusive. so you can be getting some carving action down the backside of that previous bump while also adding a bit of pivoting; to make sure that by the time you hit the next bump your skis are angled where you want them to be. The scarving there provides speed control down the backside of the bump in addition to making the skis follow a curved path that will navigate not only the tips away from the bump, but also direct the direction your COM is moving. Thus less slammage, both because of speed control as well as the line it has helped you obtain.

In reality, a lot of skiers use a combination of pivoting and carving, especially in the bumps. As far as I'm concerned, anyone bragging about perfect carves in the bumps is not skiing bumps to their greatest potential or the bumps are not hard enough. If they get in hard enough bumps and ski to their greatest potential, they will fundamentally have to combine skills.
post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
Our style (SVMM) is more difficult to learn, so not many can get there without intervention. But, once you get it, you will also become a better skier everywhere on the mountain, and you will rip in the bumps.
Now you have my curiosity. What is the SVMM method? Was it stated already in this thread? I'm coming in late, sorry if I missed it

Quote:
Look for the open white spots.
That may be what I was just talking about also, carving down the backside. I like to think of that big spot you're talking as the fleshy white meat, like carving up a Turkey for thanksgiving dinner. I see that big juicy patch of snow and reach for it with my edges. Get the speed control in there instead of from slamming into the next bump.
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
Lars, I differ with that view, as I can't find any mogul skiers outside our group using these "old movements" to make turns in the moguls. They seem to be MIA. I will share a secret with you that may shred some light on all this. Our style (SVMM) is more difficult to learn, so not many can get there without intervention. But, once you get it, you will also become a better skier everywhere on the mountain, and you will rip in the bumps. SVMM, being a more difficult skill to learn, keeps most mogul skiers just sitting on a flat ski and ripping the zipper line, which is much easier. Always the path of least resistance is most popular to the masses.

For a few SVMM is nothing new, but for the general public it will be a whole new way of skiing and can be done for life. I have skied moguls WC style and I can state from experience that SVMM is a much smoother way to get through them. Skis are definitely on the snow more, less banging/slamming. It's good for us older guys. And, as I will say one more time; with our method you dictate your line through the moguls, instead of being dictated to by the terrain. That is a big deal when skiing fast in real moguls on expert runs.

Look for the open white spots.

I like what Veeeight and borntoski683 had to say about carving vs. arcing. It seems like enough, and now we should take those defs to the snow and have fun. Some of you make this sound like work. Is it?
Shipps, I'd be a fool to close my mind to finding more efficient ways to extend my mogul skiing days. I'm open to looking at some more footage and reading some tips and methods that may give me a few longer days in mogul fields. Send me some links and some more info when you get time. I'll keep an open mind about it.
post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Now you have my curiosity. What is the SVMM method? Was it stated already in this thread? I'm coming in late, sorry if I missed it
BTS, joining us for some late summer fun? I know you are super busy so I've given you a short cut to the posts by Shipps that should get you up to speed quickly.

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...50&postcount=1

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...71&postcount=6

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=10

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=39

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=61

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...&postcount=141

http://www.weekendwarriorsguide.com/...FQYVhgodZWfrNw
post #95 of 114

More Info

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
Shipps, I'd be a fool to close my mind to finding more efficient ways to extend my mogul skiing days. I'm open to looking at some more footage and reading some tips and methods that may give me a few longer days in mogul fields. Send me some links and some more info when you get time. I'll keep an open mind about it.
Thanks for having an open mind. That kind of thinking benefits all of us and I am learning a lot on this site. For more info you can pick up Joey Cordeau's new DVD on SVMM technique.

www.weekendwarriorsguide.com

This winter we will probably be filming mogul skiing and should be able to get you some clips. I will also look through the archives for suitable material. We want to get some WC and SVMM side by side. That won't be easy. I know I would not want to play the role of the "don't do this guy". I am just saying that is our perspective and I know many people love to watch the WC style. It's exciting.
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
For more info you can pick up Joey Cordeau's new DVD on SVMM technique.

www.weekendwarriorsguide.com
Is there any way you guys could get Amazon to carry that? If so we could order via the Epic link and Epic would get a bit for each sale. Should sell more copies if we know we are helping to support Epic by buying your DVD (you could also kick back a percentage to Epic to show your support).
post #97 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Is there any way you guys could get Amazon to carry that? If so we could order via the Epic link and Epic would get a bit for each sale. Should sell more copies if we know we are helping to support Epic by buying your DVD (you could also kick back a percentage to Epic to show your support).
Max,

This DVD is brand new. We just mailed it to Baker and Taylor (Amazon's DVD distributor) for their review. Amazon already sells our book, A Weekend Warrior's Guide To Expert Skiing, so I am hopeful they will want the DVD as well.I believe in reciprocal partnerships and would be glad to do a percentage back to Epic for every unit sold from Amazon by way of this site. What have you got in mind; a standard affliate %? Email me and we can talk about setting something up through Commission Junction or other provider. I haven't done this exact arrangement before, but we should be able to figure it out. Thanks for the opportunity.
post #98 of 114
PM sent.
post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
This winter we will probably be filming mogul skiing and should be able to get you some clips. I will also look through the archives for suitable material. We want to get some WC and SVMM side by side. That won't be easy.

Shipps,

Interesting web site you have over there, it seems that the emphasis of your approach does mirror that of wc mogul skiers; pressuring the tips/front of the skis, hip position, hip drive during the extension and so on. I’m sure that there is some things that might differ, especially the poling and that ratio of weight (60/40) during the turns. Having said this, I have noticed a difference that wc bumpers have their own approaches; the North Americans and the Fins. Even within NA, they have different styles (or emphasis); Toby Dawson gets early on his edges and skis higher on the tops of the bumps. Jen Heil has great range, she keeps her poles more to the side. DBS is the golden standard for turns; skiing in the troughs, rolling his knees, maintaining constant pressure on both the absorption and extension part of the bump.

IMO, the ski community can’t get enough information on mogul skiing… bring it on. BTW, I already ordered the DVD on mogul skiing and l'm looking forward to watching it.
post #100 of 114



It seems strange that some are quite willing to only consider a carved turn a carved turn ONLY if it's at the 100% carved end, and yet are quite willing to call a skidded turn a skidded turn anywhere from the 100% to 0.0001% area. You can't have it both ways.
post #101 of 114
v8,

Is it really possible to make a fully skidded turn? You do need some edge engagment to turn, or you are just making pivot slips straight down the fall-line.
post #102 of 114
BigE...exactly my point. If the skis are following a curved path, then some carving is happening. But I guess that is shown in his picture...except that 100% skidding does = 0% carving which does mean...not turning...only skidding sideways.
post #103 of 114
further to that, I don't think its useful really to pick a point in the middle and call everything on the left skidding and everything on the right carving. Carving is a "component" of turning....all the way to 99.99% on the left. Skidding is not turning. But skidding is useful for other things...like speed control and pivoting.
post #104 of 114
BigE, in the instance of the diagram above, 100% skidding 0% carving is simplistically pivot slips straight down the fall line with no deflection in direction (braquage).
post #105 of 114
Thank you!
post #106 of 114
Does skidding necessarily always need to include pivoting?
post #107 of 114
No. Eg. side slipping.
post #108 of 114
Yea I don't like to mix the concept of pivot slips with real turns in this discussion for one reason only. In pivot slips there are no G forces generated from the turn....centrifugal, centripetal or whatever is in vogue to talk about these days. Pivot slips are all about the "pivoting", not carving vs skidding. Pivot slips are not ski turns. I would view 100% skidding in the carve vs skid discussion as being a situation where you are simply skidding sideways, having lost your curved path entirely, the G forces pulling you out of the curved path completely.

When talking about carving vs skidding and the continuum that is expressed in v8's diagram..you're really talking about being in a ski turn, with a curved ski path you are following....with centripetal ski forces in play.....with some carving action....(there will always be some carving action if you are following a curved path), some skidding action if your carving is not pure, and potentially some pivoting action on top of all that which may be redirecting the direction your ski tips are pointing simultaneously as you move through the curved path.
post #109 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Does skidding necessarily always need to include pivoting?
Only if you want to change edges. If not, you might as well ride the heel edge of a snowboard all day.
post #110 of 114
no talk of projection either down the hill or across this is the result of how much you have loaded your skis wether making a big or small turn you need to find the floating middle part of the turn or projecting this is skiing above and below the fall line like all the best skiers in the world do and yes the ski tip goes were the tail goes all of this is in the mogul skiing video as well as performed in a race course and yes a slalom skier is carving his turns is he not
post #111 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
...
In pivot slips there are no G forces generated from the turn....centrifugal, centripetal or whatever is in vogue to talk about these days. Pivot slips are all about the "pivoting", not carving vs skidding. Pivot slips are not ski turns. I would view 100% skidding in the carve vs skid discussion as being a situation where you are simply skidding sideways, having lost your curved path entirely, the G forces pulling you out of the curved path completely.

When talking about carving vs skidding and the continuum that is expressed in v8's diagram..you're really talking about being in a ski turn, with a curved ski path you are following....with centripetal ski forces in play.....with some carving action....(there will always be some carving action if you are following a curved path), some skidding action if your carving is not pure, and potentially some pivoting action on top of all that which may be redirecting the direction your ski tips are pointing simultaneously as you move through the curved path.
This seems valid. I think that the G force experienced in the turn while bump skiing, is why I call it a carved turn. The G force is what creates the reverse camber which give you the "pop". The ski is locked in an arched 'platform' until the turn is released. The track left by this arc is only left by a carved turn.
post #112 of 114
O.K. If you all insist on creating your own vocabulary and branding of ski technique let me drop the ultimate irrational skiing bombshell- Dynamic Counterbary!!!!:
post #113 of 114
That's awsesome Dog. Could you please define it for the folks at home too ?
post #114 of 114
My two cents -

If you want to see carving in the bumps, check out Toby Dawson's Bronze medal run from the Torino Games (where he was FREAKING ROBBED!)

http://www.skidebosses.com/2006/jo/jo-3H.wmv

In an interview between the two runs in the finals, Toby was asked why he took a different line than everyone else, and he basically said it was because he was the only one out there who could carve a turn, and if you watched the rest of them ski ... he was right
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Carving Disussion From "The SVMM Approach To Mogul Skiing"