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pole plant on carving - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Lets not lose track of what the debate is...YOU claimed that you needed to "use the rest of your body well" before poles became usefull...that is garbage
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by context, your friend
...the key to using poles as they are intended...

...they can't serve that purpose well... -me, replying directly to the above statement
Nowhere did I claim poles aren't useful for less skilled skiers. Of course they are. This is so painfully obvious it isn't worth discussing. You should read more carefully before making such asinine assumptions.

If it is a struggle (your word) for you to link three turns in a bump field without poles, you should really figure out why and fix that. Poles are indeed required to ski at the highest level of performance, but if you cannot comfortably link three turns in the bumps without relying on poles you are doing it wrong.
Quote:
I have no idea what you mean here...
You directly related the term "pure carving" - which is a very strong description of low performance skiing - to technical perfection. High edge angle dynamic skiing is necessarily not purely carved, as many threads have explained ad nauseam. You are being incongruent. You agree that pure carving isn't the highest form of skiing? Why did you describe it as technically perfect? Make up your mind.
post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Sorry, I dont get it. Rotate both leg simutaneously in equal amounts in same direction or opposite direction? ?
Same direction..two pivot points (ie we have 2 legs) will stabilise the upper body


Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I was told that when leg flexion is too agressive one would have difficulties pulling the legs back. Under this situation is pole plant a recovery move or a crucial part of a pure carving technique?
Well by definition if you do anything "too agressive" or "too much" then anything you do to comensate is a bridge the gap...nothing wrong with that mind you...that is why poles are there...skiing is an open skill sport and an effective pole plant is part of that skill set.
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
...

Nowhere did I claim poles aren't useful for less skilled skiers. Of course they are. This is so painfully obvious it isn't worth discussing. You should read more carefully before making such asinine assumptions.

If it is a struggle (your word) for you to link three turns in a bump field without poles, you should really figure out why and fix that. Poles are indeed required to ski at the highest level of performance, but if you cannot comfortably link three turns in the bumps without relying on poles you are doing it wrong.

You directly related the term "pure carving" - which is a very strong description of low performance skiing - to technical perfection. High edge angle dynamic skiing is necessarily not purely carved, as many threads have explained ad nauseam. You are being incongruent. You agree that pure carving isn't the highest form of skiing? Why did you describe it as technically perfect? Make up your mind.
Well if this post makes you feel better...on ya.

If you want to take a Max501 view of carving that is your choice as well, but anyone who is familiar with my 400+ posts knows where I stand on that issue....this is gettig off topic but yes you can do a pure pencil line to pencil line carve and still WORK the ski, and that is far from "low performance"....the pencil line to pencil line, created by a "park and ride" technique is low performance...that fact you don't recgonise the difference I suppose doesnt surprise me....perhaps you should work on that.:
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
If you could ski "perfect" ie no issues...ie nothing to hide, or bridge or fix...why the poles?
The detailed answer to this was already posted. See: http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/pole_plant.htm

Summary: Pole use is a component of technique required to get the greatest performance out of the hill. It is wrong to interpret all pole movements in skiing as "bridges" over technical errors. Some of the quite strong movements with poles and the kinematic chain they are part of are just as integral to skiing as any other aspect of technique. As BigE said you'll need the pole plant if you make the most of short turns on a pitch. If you don't have good pole technique you aren't getting all you can out of your skis. Getting back/inside and needing a strong pole movement to recenter doesn't mean you've made a technical error, but don't take my word for it, the pragmatic proof is in your local Winning Runs DVD.

Most people either drag them along with little purpose or use them somewhat haphazardly to cover balance deficiencies. Most pole use for typical skiers is what you describe. That doesn't mean that is all there is to it.
post #35 of 59
Garrett and Skidude72 are actually arguing nearly the same points but from two completely different view points. That is why you keep stepping on each other.

Can I ski big bumps without poles, Yes and very effectively but you can almost always find me with poles no matter where I am at on the slopes.

A little touch goes a long way to coaxing dynamic balance, poles aid in timing and certainly come in handy on flats or lift lines.

That said, most skiers rely too heavily on poles for correcting inefficient technique. Habitual pole use in this manner leads to perfecting bad technique. This is all fine and dandy if that skier is having fun and is satisfied with their skiing. But most skiers would increase the fun factor with improvements in technique. Removing the poles from a skier who has built them in as part of their turning mechanism can upset the apple cart and push them off their plateau into new learning.

When I have been too aggressive in my skiing, I often ditch the poles to regain centering and smooth out center of mass movement patterns. I then pick up my poles again and ski for fun.
post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Garrett and Skidude72 are actually arguing nearly the same points but from two completely different view points. That is why you keep stepping on each other.
Agreed. Of course, I think my viewpoint is correct, but then again I'm a stubborn SOB.

I think the rest of your post described it exactly as I would if eloquence or clarity were characteristics of my writing.
post #37 of 59
Look closely at those vids again. Borque plants his poles twice as he pushes to gain speed at the top of the course, and after that those poles are just along for the ride. In the second (Raich) and third vid (free skiing), the poles are along for the ride the whole time. The free-skier is raising his hands and putting them together just after the apex of each turn, but he is not planting his poles. Each of these skiers moves the arms for balance purposes, and the poles are attached, but that doesn't mean the poles are being planted or tapped for timing, pivoting, vaulting, redirecting, or any other purpose.
post #38 of 59
I can't decide if you are a troll or just really, really confused as to what a pole plant is.
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I can't decide if you are a troll or just really, really confused as to what a pole plant is.
Poor form, Garrett. How old are you?
post #40 of 59
I watched the videos again and not only are there many plants, there are even some really sooper-obvious double plants. A few are even fairly solid plants where you can see the pole flex.

You can call me for poor form if you so desire, but the statement stands. The Gurshman link has been posted twice so far in this thread, have you bothered to read it yet?
post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Look closely at those vids again. Borque plants his poles twice as he pushes to gain speed at the top of the course, and after that those poles are just along for the ride. In the second (Raich) and third vid (free skiing), the poles are along for the ride the whole time. The free-skier is raising his hands and putting them together just after the apex of each turn, but he is not planting his poles. Each of these skiers moves the arms for balance purposes, and the poles are attached, but that doesn't mean the poles are being planted or tapped for timing, pivoting, vaulting, redirecting, or any other purpose.
IMHO the "plants" look overly forced and obvious; looks to me that they were doing it for the camera. The racing videos just look like balancing. I do not pole plant (at least I dont think I do) but the way Raich uses his poles is similar to the way I do (of course I emphasize similar I am no where near his level).
post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The Gurshman link has been posted twice so far in this thread, have you bothered to read it yet?
I understood this thread to be about pole planting while carving, which I take to be GS-size turns or larger. Your videos showed GS turns.

In the Gurshman link, the three racers Amodt, Vogl, and Rocca, are skiing slalom. Pole plants are very necessary in slalom, and they certainly are using them. They won't be doing that when they are carving in a GS race. The poles will be moving around, but they won't be planted.

OTOH, I have seen Anja Paerson use a pole plant in GS racing, but can't find the link.
post #43 of 59
Garrett, stop being a grouch and play nice with the cougers.

Check out the gals in this beer league vid. See the young woman at 1:45 and her competitors. The "double" pole plant is common techn used to get back forward. (If that makes sense).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbvspWAHIto

Finally here is me trying to exaggerate pole plants on rollerblades. Trying to be coachable but feel (and I suspect look) awkward - esp on longer radius turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJWU6mZIG9M
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
I understood this thread to be about pole planting while carving, which I take to be GS-size turns or larger.
The amount of "carving" that goes on in a SL course and any non-joke GS course is not so dissimilar...particularly if we look at women on ~10m SL skis. They are not disciplines with vast technical differences. The pole plants are more frequent and powerful in SL for reasons explained by Gurshman, but they are mechanically similar. The movements that those GS skiers are making with the poles are still very, very important, and without them they would be significantly slower. Whether or not you want to call a strong movement with arms and poles including a touch to the snow a "plant" or not is a semantic argument, and I don't do semantics.

Anja Paerson makes beautiful plants even in her SG skiing

Quote:
Garrett, stop being a grouch and play nice with the cougers.
Only if one buys me a drink first. BTW, that is a pretty sweet beer league course.
post #45 of 59
That is the "championship" course. Night league is significantly tamer but still fun.
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Look closely at those vids again. Borque plants his poles twice as he pushes to gain speed at the top of the course, and after that those poles are just along for the ride. In the second (Raich) and third vid (free skiing), the poles are along for the ride the whole time. The free-skier is raising his hands and putting them together just after the apex of each turn, but he is not planting his poles. Each of these skiers moves the arms for balance purposes, and the poles are attached, but that doesn't mean the poles are being planted or tapped for timing, pivoting, vaulting, redirecting, or any other purpose.
To me, this looks more like habit than anything. Do he really need to do this? I will say again that with this type of turn, the movement is more of a timing device. It's just a tap. This is pretty much what I do in the same type of turn.----Wigs
post #47 of 59
Why just tap? Do you think Bourque needs to tap?

Follow the elbows. Purely recentering movements, as pole plants in carved turns ought to be. Heaven forbid they would be needed actually stop upper body rotation in a carved turn.

Here's someone with no poles. I bet he'd love to have a pair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwmjkA4l6Ic
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Does he really need to do this?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E
Follow the elbows. Purely recentering movements, as pole plants in carved turns ought to be.
Yes.



This guy has won that venue two years in a row, apparently not by being particularly pretty, round, or unwilling to put hand to snow.
post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Yes.

Yes.



This guy has won that venue two years in a row, apparently not by being particularly pretty, round, or unwilling to put hand to snow.

Garrett,

Yes to my question, "Does he really need to do this" Why? Can't he just move toward the new direction of travel which changes edges, causing him to go the other way without raising up and pulling the hand together?-----Wigs
post #50 of 59
Can't say I see any "planting" of the poles during the act of carving. Swinging, moving, locating, guiding, etc....but not planting. My feeling of what these racers are doing with the pointie tips (the part that is planted) is "feeling" the snow--using the pole backwards to attain balance etc.


A plant is to stop movememt---carving would have no such need.

Pure carving is flow....not tangents to a curve.
post #51 of 59
I am from the yes you should Pole Plant (or pole touch, i am not saying you should jam your pole as hard as possible into the snow) camp & it is integral to great skiing and great carving.

It certainly allows you to commit to the outside ski earlier and more smoothly and sets up the top for the next turn better.

this is not the video I was looking for but it certainly will do.

http://www.sportskool.com/videoPlaye... tid=742939990
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Yes to my question, "Does he really need to do this" Why? Can't he just move toward the new direction of travel which changes edges, causing him to go the other way without raising up and pulling the hand together?-----Wigs
The pole movement is part of the recentering effort. Sometimes that effort is large, and you see both poles involved quite obviously. The kinematic chains those poles are connected to are significant, and the MMOIs of the poles are significant as well. If you don't have this tool for recentering, you cannot get as far back and inside in the turn without consequences cascading into future turns. This means you can't ski as fast.
Quote:
A plant is to stop movememt
Er, no, but this falls into the category of semantics and I don't play that game.
post #53 of 59
Under discussion is how a plant is useful while carving. Clearly, this is not a blocking pole plant. I do NOT recommend using a blocking pole plant while carving. I do recommend using your poling movements for recentering and controlling the direction of you momentum. These are much different things.

Next time your out carving, try following your elbow with your body as you move inside the turn. Don't move the hips back when the pole goes out, FOLLOW it. You won't plant in the same place, and it won't be done as aggressively. You will be surprised at it's effectiveness.
post #54 of 59
I have to read carefully to assure intent because to me, a pole plant is elbows out for blocking and a pole touch is elbows neutral for timing and third point balance.
post #55 of 59
Having watched the Bode video...I would say we are playing with definitions of what a "pole plant" is. I would NEVER acuse Bode of not carving turns...but on the slower stuff where he is seen touching his tip...there is some smearing..... As the speed and slope increase....by the time the pole touches the snow...it is on the back side of the basket...meaning Bode skied past the plant before it ever touched. THUS my ascertion of using the back of the poles as a third point of balance or slope awareness while using the arm movements to get the body flowing.

Carving = using your poles but not planting them.
post #56 of 59
Here is the video I was originally looking for.

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...u p=661014201


from ISkiing's Post. "Carving = using your poles but not planting them. "

Strictly Semantics. what the original poster said was he was told to omit planting.

When you are traveling at 35 -40MPH how much of a "PLANT" do you expect. Touching your poles to the snow to help initiate a new turn is a plant, touch whatever you want to call it, it is still considered a pole plant.
post #57 of 59

Pole dragging

There's even another angle here to be considered. (Again, we are talking carving larger turn shapes.)

When visibility is low (or at high speed,) the inside pole can be lightly 'dragged' along the snow surface to provide greater feedback for the terrain and one's body position. Obviously one should not do this in such a way that proper technique is compromised. If one watches ski racing one will often see the inside pole dragging, tapping, or bouncing along on the snow.

Also, in such circumstances, one is certainly not 'balancing' on the pole, rather the poles contact with the snow surface provides feedback that assists in balancing.

This came up in a Fresh Tracks Clinic led by Jeb Boyd, we were talking tactics to be used when conditions are challenging.

P.S. In general I agree with the 'use your poles' camp. If one gets in the habit of not using them, then pole plant usage will probably not be as ingrained as it should be and that can hurt you when you really need to be using your poles in the bumps, etc.
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Strictly Semantics.
Yup. The realm of the bored.
post #59 of 59
Pole planting movements are especially important when deep carves and much angulation is on the menu. Whether or not you touch your poles to the snow is not the real issue.
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