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The SVMM Approach to Mogul Skiing - Page 4  

post #91 of 183
I think we should let Shipps share his ideas and not have them get picked apart before they are properly presented.
It's not what some would call carving but it is skiing and it is done well.
post #92 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
I think we should let Shipps share his ideas and not have them get picked apart before they are properly presented.
It's not what some would call carving but it is skiing and it is done well.
Its not even close to carving.
post #93 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
If no ski performance is present, how or what is enabling the skier to achieve such quick and dynamic deflection of his mass?
Deflection? Dude, he's twisting the heck back an forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Are you saying the skier in blue looks to be in a biomechanically weak position? Really? Looks pretty solid to me...no head bobs, no waist breaking, no arms flailing....
Do you not see plenty of what is commonly called knee angulation throughout the vid?
post #94 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
For the purposes of this forum the term carving may be an inadequate word, but for the ski-world-at-large I feel it provides the best frame of reference that most people can understand. Generally speaking, recreational skiers relate to carving as trying to get the ski on edge and don’t worry so much about creating the perfect arc. For that reason, we use the term carve to move skiers off a flat ski and get them to load energy into the ski for creating rebound, when skiing moguls. The ultimate goal is to ski real moguls on expert runs, while going fast and in control, without slamming and banging.

Our definition of carving lands between the flat-ski practitioners and the purist arc-makers. ENJOY THE VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scLlZ5E-zCQ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Its not even close to carving.
'nough said.
post #95 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Deflection? Dude, he's twisting the heck back an forth.?
Call it what you want.....but his COM and especially his BOS moves side to side very rapidly...watch the video (again blue jacket guy after the girl talks) and try to keep your finger on his COM or even more fun his BOS....moves back and forth pretty quick to me....if it was just a glorified pivot slip the COM and BOS would stay in a straight line...or at least the deflection would be no where near that dynamic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Do you not see plenty of what is commonly called knee angulation throughout the vid?
Sure, again you can define what ever terms you like...bottom line, there is nothing "weak" about that skiing.


Here is a challenge for you...do you have a copy of any video of HH skiing in the bumps...making about that same size turn? Would love to see you contrast the two.
post #96 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Here is a challenge for you...do you have a copy of any video of HH skiing in the bumps...making about that same size turn? Would love to see you contrast the two.
Cool .A double feature
Does anybody need anything at the snack bar ??:
post #97 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
...bottom line, there is nothing "weak" about that skiing
Who said the skiing was weak?
post #98 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Look closely and you'll see that the skis are pushed out to gain the edge. Much different from developing angles in a strong biomechanical fashion.

Well what is "much different" to strong?.....weak?

You seem to be avoiding the key quetions....
post #99 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Call it what you want.....but his COM and especially his BOS moves side to side very rapidly...watch the video (again blue jacket guy after the girl talks) and try to keep your finger on his COM or even more fun his BOS....moves back and forth pretty quick to me....if it was just a glorified pivot slip the COM and BOS would stay in a straight line...or at least the deflection would be no where near that dynamic.
First, we need to consider the video as a whole as it has been offered as a demo of the technique. That means we MA all the footage. In that case I do not see what you mention above with regards to the movement of CoM in the majority of the footage. Again, the skiing is fine. But what I'm seeing is fairly typical bump skier rotary movements combined with excellent A&E skills.
post #100 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Well what is "much different" to strong?.....weak?

You seem to be avoiding the key quetions....
The skiing is not weak and I didn't mean to imply any such thing (you are saying this not me).

Now back to the vid. We are being offered the video as an example of a technique that is grounded in carving which typically includes an extended outside leg. Is that what you see in the vid?
post #101 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
First, we need to consider the video as a whole as it has been offered as a demo of the technique. That means we MA all the footage. In that case I do not see what you mention above with regards to the movement of CoM in the majority of the footage. Again, the skiing is fine. But what I'm seeing is fairly typical bump skier rotary movements combined with excellent A&E skills.
Max, max, max........

3 pages later? Cmon...you can do better....the only thing you are showing now is your ability to wear people down with drivel....simple question Max...blue jacket skier, after the girl talks...what makes the feet snap back and forth?
post #102 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Max, max, max........

3 pages later? Cmon...you can do better....the only thing you are showing now is your ability to wear people down with drivel....simple question Max...blue jacket skier, after the girl talks...what makes the feet snap back and forth?
Dude, I've answered this already. Rotary, lots of rotary. Looks like its driven higher up in the chain (at the hips). Does he get a slightly higher edge then the skier in red? I suppose (primarily via knee drive). But is it carving or anything even close? Do you see a movement pattern that would yield a carved turn (or even a portion of a carved turn)?

BTW, I'm not saying he isn't getting some pressure on those skis, that would be silly, just that rotary is the driving mechanism for bouncing back and forth.

What do you see when you look at the other skier?

Are the skiers in the vid ripping bumpers...heck yeah.
post #103 of 183
Max, I think it's more than just simple rotary. He is actively using the flexion and extension and rebound of the skis while translating this linear motion into a rotary motion, like a boxer taking a rotary motion of the hip and translating it into a straight punch, or a crank taking the linear motion of a piston and changing it into rotation of the crankshaft.
post #104 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Max, I think it's more than just simple rotary. He is actively using the flexion and extension and rebound of the skis while translating this linear motion into a rotary motion, like a boxer taking a rotary motion of the hip and translating it into a straight punch, or a crank taking the linear motion of a piston and changing it into rotation of the crankshaft.
There are two skiers to watch (again, this vid is a demonstration of the technique). What do you see as the major movement pattern when you average the turns in the vid?
post #105 of 183
How sad. this actually started out as a pretty intersting thread to keep track of. Now it's been taken to the same dead end nearly every other techinque thread ends up in. Sure hope Shipps will ignore the hijack and re-emerge to finish it. pity. pity. pity.
post #106 of 183
Looks like the way Paul Jones skis bumps.
post #107 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom View Post
How sad. this actually started out as a pretty intersting thread to keep track of. Now it's been taken to the same dead end nearly every other techinque thread ends up in. Sure hope Shipps will ignore the hijack and re-emerge to finish it. pity. pity. pity.
Now you guys have done it . Mom has to step in and smack you guys.

Good point Mom . Let's give Shipps a chance .

Maybe the discussion about the carving or lack of it should be split off into another thread and let Shipps discussion stay related to his intended subject matter.
SVMM carving or just another effective mogul technique ?
What do you guys think ?
post #108 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
There are two skiers to watch (again, this vid is a demonstration of the technique). What do you see as the major movement pattern when you average the turns in the vid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
I think we should let Shipps share his ideas and not have them get picked apart before they are properly presented.
It's not what some would call carving but it is skiing and it is done well.
I also think that we should let Shipps tell us what his ideas are. However not to cop out of the question, here's what I see in no particular order of importance. I see tipping and using the front edges to scrape off speed and engage the ski and make the ski work as needed. I see A and E once the edge is set. I see rotary tied into the A and E to position the edges(edit:, but most of the aiming of the edges is being done by a push with the heel or toe when the ski is oriented for this to result in the ski pointing in the right way, not a twist in the plane of the ski).
post #109 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I also think that we should let Shipps tell us what his ideas are. However not to cop out of the question, here's what I see in no particular order of importance. I see tipping and using the front edges to scrape off speed and engage the ski and make the ski work as needed. I see A and E once the edge is set. I see rotary tied into the A and E to position the edges.
That's what I see. It is effective mogul technique and uses a group of skills and is not biased towards any.
post #110 of 183
There is a comment made about taking short swing turns from the groomed to the bumps. Here is an article describing the short swing turn, including drills for it's develpment, courtesy of the PSIA:

http://www.psia.org/psia_2002/educat...shortturns.asp
post #111 of 183


[Hijack Busting Mode On]


Please take your discussions on Carving to THIS THREAD.

Thank you.


[/Hijack Busting Mode Off]
post #112 of 183
Looking at the video I find myselfe looking at great mogul skiing. Mogul skiing you hardly ever see out on a regular mogul run.

Lets talk rhythm. What kind of rhythm should we use? Should we keep turning according to a time based rhythm no matter what or should we base our turning on sertain spots in the terrain? In racing the time based rhythm is very important but there the moguls are man made so that you can keep a steady rhythm and allways turn with the bumps but on a regular mogul slope bumps are not spaced evenly.

Look at the first guy in the blue jacket. He is turning according to bumps. As is the guy in red pants. He even takes a jump in the air. Cool, but it messes up his rhythm from a time based perspective. First guy after the girl talks in the read pants rocks and clocks even rhythm allways turning on the same spot but hey, that is a pro running in the zipperline of a race track. The guy in the blue jacket, first two clips, is also a pro and he can tear the slope apart and small bumps are no obsticles or anything he needs to take in consideration. He keeps his time based rhythm going and turns solidly sometimes on top of the bump sometimes in the rut, sometimes on the side etc. In the clip from above its even more visual. He turns all over the place. IMHO it would be wrong to say that SVMM is a stand out system for this kind of skiing. All pros ski this solid and well. The problem with pros skiing is that they ski so darn faast and they turn so quickly and so often it makes me sick. Thats why such skiing as in this video looks good to me, its harmonic and its real turning, not just slammin.

BTW, have you guys notissed that allways when these guys make a turn they countertwist and lean their upper body in a weard way. They get into a mode where they snap one two one two from side to side like mecanical robats. Especially standingout in the second clip, the guy in the red pants. Same move by the racer in the red pants.
post #113 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom View Post
How sad. this actually started out as a pretty intersting thread to keep track of. Now it's been taken to the same dead end nearly every other techinque thread ends up in. Sure hope Shipps will ignore the hijack and re-emerge to finish it. pity. pity. pity.
There is no hijack here at all. Not in the slightest. Just take a look at the original post that started this thread and note the bold sections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
It has come to my attention that many bump skiers around the U.S. think it is wrong to carve your turns in the moguls. If I understand this opinion correctly, it supports the argument that it is better to ride a flat ski and swivel your turns.
Now granted, I think we all need to accept the fact that there is more than one way to ski a mogul. However, up here in the PNW we use the Sun Valley Mogul Method (SVMM) to ski moguls and it focuses entirely on carving in the Bumps. ...I think the rest of the skiing world may be unaware that this is possible, as most skiers do not realize how well it works unless they have been taught SVMM. To that end, I am editing a piece of video from The Cordeau Institute of Skiing that clearly illustrates skiers ripping off fast, carved turns in the moguls just last winter. Let me know if any of you are interested and I will post it when finished (hopefully in the next two weeks).

Meanwhile, your thoughts please?
He specifically stated that the system focus ENTIRELY on carving and then asked for our thoughts. So, what's wrong with our answers?
post #114 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
BTW, I'm not saying he isn't getting some pressure on those skis, that would be silly, just that rotary is the driving mechanism for bouncing back and forth.
Sorry Max, rotary cannot do that, edging does.
post #115 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
He specifically stated that the system focus ENTIRELY on carving and then asked for our thoughts. So, what's wrong with our answers?
They're not heading towards understanding what the SVMM teaches.
post #116 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Sorry Max, rotary cannot do that, edging does.
I should have stated it a bit differently. Rotary is the driving force I see (on average) in the video for moving the skis from one side to the other. Watch from the hip area.
post #117 of 183
Rotary doesn't do that either. It just pivots the skis.
post #118 of 183
Rotary starts the movement but the rebound drives them back. I would place the rebound as a higher force of moving the skis to the other side. The rotation fine tunes the force needed to reach the other side of the turn.
post #119 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Rotary doesn't do that either. It just pivots the skis.
I don't know what you mean. But I see upper leg/hip muscles moving the skis back and forth.
post #120 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Looks like the way Paul Jones skis bumps.
That guy's really good:
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