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Have you skied recently on "race stock" racing skis? - Page 2

post #31 of 58
Heluva...

How do my WC's differ from a race stock?
post #32 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Heluva...

How do my WC's differ from a race stock?
Not knowing the history behind your particular pairs, the best I can offer is an educated guess... I suspect that they are "WC" in the sense that they are the Blizzard race stock offering that would go to most high level USSA and FIS racers around the US and world (much like I ski on Nordica's race stock offerings - which are the highest performing skis that are available to non-WC racers). Typically the current season's race stock offering is based of from the most popular shape from the previous WC season and is offered in several different flexes. The Blizzard consumer race skis, which are cap, are the SLR and GSR I think - your skis are completely different - probably hand built, with matched flex, and very traditional sandwich/laminate layup with no required plate or binding.

Skis that fall into this category are:
Nordica SLR & GSR
Fischer RC4 WC SL & GS
Head i.SL & i.GS RD
Volkl Tigershark SL & GS
etc.

The list goes on, but you get the idea. As for your skis, that is my best guess. If they are not the race stock offering, they could be a race stock ski that was originally going to a VERY high level racer (think WC level), which could potentially make them different from the ski that was widely distributed as the race stock board for that season. My guess is that they are not a ski that was meant for an athlete due to how they are mounted, and because you have two pairs of them - so are likely the normal race stock ski for that season - which you would find duplicates of if you showed up at any reasonably high level USSA race, all FIS races, as well as collegiate carnival races.

The short answer is that they are the same thing.

Later

GREG
post #33 of 58
HeluvaSkier - it is great fun to ski short sl turn too. currently all my skiing practice is on very short turns. i just have problem with big turns. cant imagine how to stay carving with radius > sidecut radius.
- my race stock skis : racetiger sl stock 06 was bought just off the shelf. i heard that its not real race stock. its just the closest you can buy. race stock is supplied direct from manufacturor to racers in events. if that is true then anyway an ordinary person is not using race stock. right?
post #34 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
racetiger sl stock 06 was bought just off the shelf. i heard that its not real race stock. its just the closest you can buy. race stock is supplied direct from manufacturor to racers in events. if that is true then anyway an ordinary person is not using race stock. right?
Technically speaking, they are all the same skis coming from the same place - the cream of the crop goes to the sponsored WC athletes and are usually made to their specifications. The skis like you have are racestock skis - as in not consumer boards - and are based off the skis that the athletes get, but are obviously not personalized to your tastes. From what I understand about the manufacturers that I have experience with - they often chose the most successful shape from the previous WC season for the current seasons race stock skis - of course that is really an arbitrary number since many top athletes are having skis made for them specifically. Most companies do offer different flexes of the race stock skis that are available to competitive racers (USSA, FIS, etc). Most of the stock skis that I have skied on over the years have come with flex numbers on them, or with flex numbers on their packaging.

Later

GREG
post #35 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
.......Most of the stock skis that I have skied on over the years have come with flex numbers on them, or with flex numbers on their packaging.

Later

GREG
did the manufacturer access what flex numbers is best for you?
post #36 of 58
I will bet most people would agree that "Race Stock" skis have a pecking order of intensity and character, trickling down from the "World Cup" racers to National pros, collegiate semi-pros, academy hotshots, academy 2nd tier and so-on ..down to civilians who might wrangle an orphaned pair either sold by a distributor, reps, racers or race-shops or brother/sister in-laws who are qualified to get a pair.

Just like a civilian might be able to drive an F1 race car for a few minutes at moderate speed, a civilian could ski a pair of "race stock" skis for a while, but the ski typically will feel heavy, demanding, tiring, frightfully powerful at times, overbearing and very often "dead" and "unforgiving" until it gets up to normal operating speeds (on the correct surface!). Even when a civilian gets a true "race stock" ski into its sweet spot of speed and pressure on the correct surface, the result will often be a short-lived ride unless the skier is in the proper condition to maintain such control and pressure the ski is designed to operate under.

In short, most advanced skiers should try to get a ride on a race stock ski, but be prepared to be humbled. You might get 30 minutes of awesome turns if you're skilled and in shape, but then be prepared to go lay down and find a nice place to take a nap. The true race stock skis are only meant to be used in the few short minutes a racer finds themselves on the race course. Many racers will use a less-demanding "training ski" to hone their skills in training sessions, leaving their "race day" skis in the hands of the technician most of the time...testing them only briefly during training.

Anyway...race stock skis are way-cool and fun to get your hands on...just like F1 racecars (wish I could try an F1 race car...)
post #37 of 58
ExoticSkis - i think it is very confusing to use the same name 'race stock skis' for both off the shelf and special made for racers.
- are you saying that the two skis i refer above behave differently not by a little but a very substantial difference?
post #38 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
ExoticSkis - i think it is very confusing to use the same name 'race stock skis' for both off the shelf and special made for racers.
- are you saying that the two skis i refer above behave differently not by a little but a very substantial difference?
Once you get to that performance level the difference is not huge. I do own one true pair of Elans that were skied (raced) on the WC circuit. In their day they out-shined any ski that was available to the public (2001 model skis) and even continued to outshine many of my current race stock models as late as 2003.

What makes a race day ski so fast is that it is rarely skied on, so the original flex, rebound, and torsional stiffness are intact every race run. Trainers receive so much mileage that they are bound to wear down after awhile. In most cases they start out as the same ski, and the race day ski is kept fresh. WC athletes have so many of these skis that they may use several different race skis through the entire season - especially tech events - speed skis are a little more exclusive from what I hear.

So, the bottom line is that what you can buy right now (as a racer) as the race stock or race room offering from any given company while nearly identical in construction to the current skis out on the WC will probably be more similar in performance to skis from the previous season. In short the WC circuit is a testing ground for what you ultimately ski on - even if it is a full-on race board.

I know a few <50 point USSA racers - and they still use the same 'race stock' skis that I use, so I think the separation in performance level comes at the top levels of the sport (world cup) where they are often testing new flexes, custom designs for each athlete, and new technology construction methods that when proven successful will trickle down to the more widely available race stock product.

Of course, all of this does not mean that race stock skis are easy to come by - usually you have to be a racer to purchase them at a price tag less than $1000, unless you wait until the end of the season and snatch up what was not purchased.

Later

GREG
post #39 of 58
Carver_hk...
No, no, not my intent to confuse anyone (except myself probably)..."Race Stock" can mean all kinds of things, even in the same brand and model...Some race stock skis available on the dealer rack are indeed "special" and very close in character to the "world cup" stock skis..depends on the designs and manufacturing specs that season...others are sometimes claimed to be "race stock", when they may only be nicely matched pairs which differ widely from their "Reserva" sisters and brothers....personally, I think most modern race skis are superb....it just depends on which ones feel good to the skier using them!
post #40 of 58
HeluvaSkier - very good point that racing day skis must not be used too often. i guess they need to retain the fresh metal for the rebound.
- it would be great if you can shed some light on this thread too. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=57959
post #41 of 58
There is practicality in using a race stock ski versus an off the shelf "SL".

Much of this will depend on where you ski and if you will notice the difference. Eastern icy conditions and a bit of speed on the off the rack skis sent me over. The old black and gold P-40 SL's were great on softer snow as were the Atomic. But when you got any speed under them on ice or icy cord, they would start to chatter and shake. That is where a true race stock ski won't let you down.
post #42 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Not knowing the history behind your particular pairs, the best I can offer is an educated guess... I suspect that they are "WC" in the sense that they are the Blizzard race stock offering that would go to most high level USSA and FIS racers around the US and world (much like I ski on Nordica's race stock offerings - which are the highest performing skis that are available to non-WC racers). Typically the current season's race stock offering is based of from the most popular shape from the previous WC season and is offered in several different flexes. The Blizzard consumer race skis, which are cap, are the SLR and GSR I think - your skis are completely different - probably hand built, with matched flex, and very traditional sandwich/laminate layup with no required plate or binding.

Skis that fall into this category are:
Nordica SLR & GSR
Fischer RC4 WC SL & GS
Head i.SL & i.GS RD
Volkl Tigershark SL & GS
etc.

The list goes on, but you get the idea. As for your skis, that is my best guess. If they are not the race stock offering, they could be a race stock ski that was originally going to a VERY high level racer (think WC level), which could potentially make them different from the ski that was widely distributed as the race stock board for that season. My guess is that they are not a ski that was meant for an athlete due to how they are mounted, and because you have two pairs of them - so are likely the normal race stock ski for that season - which you would find duplicates of if you showed up at any reasonably high level USSA race, all FIS races, as well as collegiate carnival races.

The short answer is that they are the same thing.

Later

GREG
Thats about what I thought. Being out of the race scene myself for quite a few years, I appreciate the clarification. These are not skis I plan on skiing for a whole day, but may a couple of hours at a time, conditions permitting. :
post #43 of 58
Have race stock skis gotten softer over the last 10 or 20 years, like consumer skis seem to have gotten?
post #44 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Have race stock skis gotten softer over the last 10 or 20 years, like consumer skis seem to have gotten?
I think technology has helped there, you no longer need to make a ski longitudinally stiff for it to be torsionally stiff.
post #45 of 58

Head iGS race, Stockli SL's

The plates make the biggest difference in feel. Last year I bought the previous year's Head GS from a whistler ski club racer. 180 Head iGS w/ head riser- a 1/4 aluminum plate on big rubber blocks topped with a gold Tyrolia never-let-go. Soft, soft flex but untwistable torsion. Really nice skis ! A great sweet-spot. No speed limit. NO SKETCH FACTOR and/but if you blow it, the high side waits... if your knee don't take out your chin on the way there.
The season before I got hold of Stockli SL's 165 with Marker 1400's. Great sweet spot. Speed limited only by the fun of being on a SL ski and trying to make larger, clean arcs that finish with an SL radius. Some days I'll do 30,000 vert on 'em. They are hairy on super steeep, hard snow because of the 116-63-100 shape...and they are torsionally rigid. The only other problem is that in the knee-deep, they are submarines...So I guess they are er..limited.
I tried really sharp pair of Head and Rossi's SL's two winters ago - both with race plates.They were really demanding ie: great performance but they don't sketch- so if you needed to sketch your ACL's were in danger...
But other than being limited and dangerous... they are a gas.
post #46 of 58
I have a pair of '07 Atomic 201 SGs. I would not want to ski them without plug boots. They are great fun, and not difficult to control, however they generate a lot of speed. Also, I never thought a pair of super g skis could be as lively as these.

Without plug boots, they just wouldn't work.

I'd rather have a pair of GS skis.
post #47 of 58

RE: Required high level carving skills+at speed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Any reasonably good skier can probably ride around on some SL's for a day but would probably end up making GS turns on them. On stock GS skis, that same skier would find themselves unable to turn most likely.
Later

GREG
I'v'e had the opportunity to demo 2008 Nordica Dobermann SL (VIST plated) and GS (VIST plated) and the Volkl Racetiger RC (w/Marker WC piston plated)and SC (ditto), they were "off the shelf consumer race skis. I chose the Salomon LAB SL ski because I felt i could bend the LAB SL skis into an SL arc in a tight course, comparitively easier than Nordica and Volki.

I am sure GREG is describing me in "If you don't have high level carving skills I would not recommend any race stock skis."
post #48 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothMtnDreamerInJapan View Post
I chose the Salomon LAB SL ski because I felt i could bend the LAB SL skis into an SL arc in a tight course, comparitively easier than Nordica and Volki.
It sounds like you made a wise decision. The Salomon LAB skis are quite soft compared to the two skis you listed. I am curious though - did you try the stock skis from Nordica and Volkl or just the "off the shelf" consumer skis? The reason I ask is that the LAB SL is the Salomon race stock offering to all racers, and I would expect it to be more demanding and higher performing than the other two skis you listed. I haven't skied them all back-to-back in a few seasons so things may have changed, but the last time I skied a Salomon LAB GS back to back with a Dobermann GS (not GSR) the LAB ski smoked the Dobermann by a significant amount of time every run... Of course a race stock Elan GSX beat them both.

Later

GREG
post #49 of 58
Question...Are Atomic and Salomon Race Stock skis caps or sandwiches?
post #50 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Question...Are Atomic and Salomon Race Stock skis caps or sandwiches?
That is a good question. I have no idea for sure.

I think that the Salomon stock skis only have a cosmetic cap on them (not structural) but I could be wrong. The cap on Salomon LAB/stock skis is much more square and when pushed back by a sidewall planer for tuning, is not as thick or made of the same material as their retail cap skis (much thinner and softer) so I suspect it is cosmetic, but it could also have other purposes. I can vouch for the Salomon race skis having a much different feel than other brands.

Atomic... who knows. Their skis used to be Beta, and supposedly still share some similarities with the Beta technology even though the visible lobes have entirely disappeared from their skis. I haven't skied the new 'non-beta' race skis yet so I don't know how they react compared to the old ones. I would assume that if they are cap, and share similarities with the old Beta design, that there is some sort of load bearing cap/structure built into the ski, but without sawing one in half in several places to observe the actual construction it is all speculation. I do know that the non-beta (non-profiled) skis have been very well received over the last 3 or 4 seasons when they emerged more mainstream.

Later

GREG
post #51 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Question...Are Atomic and Salomon Race Stock skis caps or sandwiches?
What's a cap? What's a sandwich -- apart from the pastrami kind? :
post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I know I would sooner ski a race stock ski vs. a race stock plug boot.
...and I like skiing both... at the same time... : :
post #53 of 58
I've got a pair of 218 Volkl DH which are obviously race stock, but are basicly leftovers. They are still a very damn nice ski and quite fast. A pleasure to ski on overall for making huge carves. Very solid and torsionally stiff.
post #54 of 58
Not in current day skis but I had some Dynamic VR27 race stocks in a 207 slalom and they were an incredible ski back in the day. They ran great at speed and were extremely stable. I liked them so much that two years later, I came across the same ski at a shop in Sun Valley at a great price and bought them. They weren't the same. The newer ones were softer in the tip and easier to initiate a turn but didn't have near the same liveliness coming out of a turn nor the stability at speed. The race stocks were just another level above what was offered to the public. There truly is a difference and if you can work the flex, they're fun to ride.
post #55 of 58
I got a chance to ski some leftover Elan race stock GSX's last spring, with a WC-style plate (not sure exactly what it was) that happened to have a 290mm mount. These were as unshakable as anything I have ever skied at speed, and very confidence-inspiring, provided I didn't make a mistake. I got them hooked up unexpectedly though, and thought I was going down on my face at a speed that would have not been enjoyable. They took alot of energy to bring around tightly, and weren't forgiving, but if I was a better skier, I am sure they would have rocked. I wouldn't ski them on a regular day, as I would have to ski these too fast to be safe around others, and they are too demanding to really be enjoyable all the time. I found the detuned race skis (GSX Fusion Pro) to be almost as stable and way more forgiving (it felt like a rental ski in comparison, with regards to forgiveness).
post #56 of 58

Old Slalom skis

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
Not in current day skis but I had some Dynamic VR27 race stocks in a 207 slalom and they were an incredible ski back in the day. They ran great at speed and were extremely stable. I liked them so much that two years later, I came across the same ski at a shop in Sun Valley at a great price and bought them. They weren't the same. The newer ones were softer in the tip and easier to initiate a turn but didn't have near the same liveliness coming out of a turn nor the stability at speed. The race stocks were just another level above what was offered to the public. There truly is a difference and if you can work the flex, they're fun to ride.
I tried out an antique pair of Fischer Vacuum RC4 SLS a few years ago. I don't know if they were race stock or not, but when sharpened up properly, they were really good at slicing very tight turns at about 30 mph, and not much else. Sure, they could make non-arced turns, but if you wanted to carve an arc and not skid you either had to make really long turns, or really lay into them and make a very tight high-g-force turn.
post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trotski View Post
What's a cap? What's a sandwich -- apart from the pastrami kind? :
A cap ski is basically when the top sheet also serves as a load bearing device. If you look at a ski and the top is one piece from edge to edge is an indication that a ski is a cap. If I am not mistaken Salomon and Elan were the first two that started with caps - Salomon called theirs "monocoque". There were still layers of different materials but the top level played a primary role in putting pressure on the edges. As has been stated, multiple variations have been created since including a purely cosmetic cap. The initial thinking was that caps were easier and cheaper to manufacture and allowed for a more homogeneous product. It was found, though, some performance was sacrificed.

Most sandwich constructions have very distinct sidewalls and in the case of comp skis - vertical ones (Elan has done some interesting engineering with the sidewalls on some of the Magfire series). The core in the sandwich is the load bearing entity. As you know, you can load a ski core up to be stiffer than a steel beam with fiberglass, different types of wood, number of wood segments, layers of metal, cream cheese, lox etc. etc.

If you look at Stockli's construction from last year, you can get an idea for instance - Their GS ski had a metal/wood core, the SL and SC - a softer wood metal synthetic core. The stiffer Cross Pro - metal/wood - the regular Cross wood metal synthetic. The Stormrider XL wood metal, the AT wood metal synthetic. (Obviously they all had fiberglass).
post #58 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Question...Are Atomic and Salomon Race Stock skis caps or sandwiches?
I can vouch that as of 2007 Atomic Stock SLs were still beta/cap GS were still full on beta as of 2004, now they are a salomon style "cap" ski with faint Beta channels. I know they used to make beta skis for Hermann after their skis switched to the new stuff. (He had an older style beta GS 198 in NZ last summer) I also saw many different models of the same "stock" ski over my years. Basically if you are high up in their list you get what you want.
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