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how a carving arc is form in icy slope

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
the event sequence. i am not sure. here is my guess. any suggestion?

1. after changeover, both skis is brough to the new turn
2. with sufficient initial edge angle, skis tips and tails catch icy snow surface
3. force is applied to the middle of the skis and push to the desired bending radius.
4. the skis edge is progressively bite into icy snow surface?
5. no more radiu change after the skis bite into snow.
post #2 of 24
Set your new edge as early as possible before you start the turn. On extremely hard pack surface if you loose your edge and start to skid out , it is probably best to give up on that turn and start a new turn to set a new edge. If you can find it, seek out softer snow to make your turn where the edge of your skis will have a better chance of not skidding out.
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
catskills - that's what i been doing.
- if we look at the mechanism alone, do you think it is how the initial gripping is form?
post #4 of 24
I don't see it so much as a step by step process. Everything happens progressively.
post #5 of 24
Ive never attempted to carve on pure ice, I dont mean icy snow, I mean pure solid ice the kind people ice skate on. Is it carvable? Is it better/wiser to ski through it and find something softer?
post #6 of 24
You tip the skis, and instead of having the ski deform immediately into a decambered shape, it comes under stress and with forward progress the tip cuts in a new direction and the rest of the metal edge follows the new groove. As you move forward the grove adopts the new shape. You can't put a heck of a lot of sideways force on the edge or it skips out. It's a lot of fun having your skis make snaky groves under you as you head straight down the fall line. Typically I can make clean grooves just for the fun of making the cuts, but when I really need to change the direction of my centre of mass at speed on a run thats been under the freezing rain for a few days, I end up scraping the tips and cutting with the underfoot to tail section of my skis.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Ghost - i think we have a big difference of the picture. it looks you think that the tips bites into snow first when i think both tip and tail bites into snow at the same time. in your version what is the force that help to subsequently bend the skis when only the tip is bite into snow?
post #8 of 24
The whole edge bites at once, but the ski is moving forward. The new shape grows out of the old one, and it grows in the direction of motion.
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
The whole edge bites at once, but the ski is moving forward. The new shape grows out of the old one, and it grows in the direction of motion.
i dont understand why when both skis go flat at the very moment of the changeover and automatically go back to its original bending radius in the new turn without an external force?
post #10 of 24
The force is called gravity. The more you tip the ski the more it want's to bend, but the edge is constrained by the snow, except there is a degree of freedom in its forward motion.
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
The force is called gravity. The more you tip the ski the more it want's to bend, but the edge is constrained by the snow, except there is a degree of freedom in its forward motion.
it looks we are explaining the same thing now. gravity acts on the skier, the force is transmitted to the skis through the boots. now when you tip the skis, the skis is more susceptable to be pushed sideway and therefore making it a smaller turn radius. but before that happen, the tail and the tip must hang on to something. for otherwise if only the tip or tail is bite into snow when the external force is applied the result would not be bending the skis but something else.
post #12 of 24
Yes. You push the ski and the ice pushes back. Take a different perspective. Look at how the ice and the boot are shaping the ski. Think of the ski as an upside down beam supported in the middle. The support post is your boot. The load is the snow (edit: ice). The load bends the beam and the beam wants to acquire the new shape.

Now consider the edge biting into the ice. Though the edge under the ski wants to move sideways, the sharp edge digging into the ice won't let it slip, but as the tip moves ahead, it follows a path into a shape more like the beam above, the rest of the ski follows along in the groove the tip cuts.
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
.......
Now consider the edge biting into the ice. Though the edge under the ski wants to move sideways...
what would you say about the turning radius at this initial biting into snow? i can see no force was applied to the skis through the boot yet.
post #14 of 24
Ron LeMaster has some really great photo sequences of Worldcup-class skiers carving during GS runs you might want to look at. Very cool and might visually explain what happens when the ski is "carved" into the surface at speed.
(I love these photos)

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/index.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/index.html
post #15 of 24
At the initial "bite", the edge and the ice meet where they line up, at about the side-cut radius.
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
Ive never attempted to carve on pure ice, I dont mean icy snow, I mean pure solid ice the kind people ice skate on. Is it carvable? Is it better/wiser to ski through it and find something softer?
Yes and yes. I think most people who can carve on ice in the real world are racing on the WC circuit. A somewhat larger group can carve ice in the virtual world.
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExoticSkis View Post
Ron LeMaster has some really great photo sequences of Worldcup-class skiers carving during GS runs you might want to look at. Very cool and might visually explain what happens when the ski is "carved" into the surface at speed.
(I love these photos)

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/index.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/index.html
Great images. thanks.
post #18 of 24
Carving on true ice is an extremely difficult skill to learn and the steeper the slope the more difficult it is. Contrary to what I am understanding is posted here, carving on ice requires very, very light pressure. You almost suspend your skis from your torso. A weightlessness if you will, kind of like down unweighting. If you increase pressure too soon and too aggressively you will only skid sideways. it takes an incredible amount of patience and disciplne to be light and ginger on your edge and let the pressure build very progressively. You must let the edge hook up completely before apply any additional pressure.

On steeper slopes, I contend you can't carve the top of the turn at all particularly on ice. This is where redirection is so effective. you intentionally flatten your skis and let your skis drift sideways until the you intersect the riseline and then carve the bottom of the turn across the hill.

I also believe all of the above must be done in a very fore/aft neutral position on the ski. if too much pressure is applied to the tip the tip will slide and so will the tail and vice versa is true.

Richie-Rich brought up a good point in regrd to skiing through the ice and then edging in an area of softer snow, but what of the slope that has no soft snow.

A few years back my older son was racing at Park City. It was a year of extremely low snow and a very earlky season race. it was a week and 1/2 after the World Cup had opened the season and the kids were racing on on CB's run and Picabo's the WC GS and slalom courses. They had to race on week and a half old injected snow and there had been no new snow since.

As a side note Ted Ligety won all the races that week. This was about November of 2001.

Of course we are more used to softer snow here in the PNW and the old injected snow was a huge challenge for the PNW kids.

Picabo's is a very steep run where they run slalom. My son told me all he could think about in the start gate was, "How am I ever going to make to the 1st gate???

He finsished all his runs that week, although he struggled. he was on new skis and boots and this was his very first race back (I really felt for him) after tearing his ACL in a FIS downhill nine months earlier. Also had very little training since this was a very early season race. This race was supposed to have been run at Sugar Bowl , but they moved it to Park City 3 days before the scheduled day.

I can't tell you how disappointing it is to go to Alta and ski on a thin strip of boilerplate on an beginner/intermediate run all day!!!! we went a couple of days early so we could ge accustom to the altitude and marty could ski a little bit before racing. So we headed over to Alto for a day. Snowbird was closed!

At the end of the week my son said to me I had to come up and check out CB's (the GS course).Park City has a Racers Only Race Arena called Eagle and no one but racers are allowed on the hill during the race week.

We jumped on the Race Arena chair and were talking on the way up and I was not paying alot of attention so when i saw an unloading platform a jumped off like a moron. Marty was yelling at me that I had unloading at the slalom hill.

Well, this is where the "FUN" began! i skied across the hill a ways and realized this pitch was like trying to ski s on a pice of glass covered with Olive Oil!!! I was on a brand new pair of 180cm Atomic SX11 Super Cross.

I am here to tell you I basically creeped down this hill not being able to get any kind of an edge (My skis had a 3 degree side edge on them) I felt like a cat on a hot tin roof! when i wasn;t standing there like a dope trying to grasp at anything I could hold onto i was sliding sideways uncontrollably. In the frenzy to try to controll my sideways descent I dropped my uphill pole. there was absolutly no way in hell I could climb back up to where it was and get it. About this time a group of looked like maybe J5 came down this fricking slippery ass slope make turns down the falline like it was groomed hero pow! Well finally i got down the hill far enough to find some piles of ice shavings off to the side that i could stop myself in. And made it back to chair. yeo, you guessed it, i had to go get my other pole and do it again. I did a smidgen better the 2nd time down, but still deserved a gaper badge. Understand I pride myself in being able to carve pretty damn well on some pretty hard snow but this frictionless stuff and the steepnees of Picabo's with only old manmade old injected ice was a type of slope covering I had never encountered. Even tougher then our rain slickened frozen & thawed PNW cement.

Many of the racers that week were running 5-7 degree side edges on their slalom skis. ( i was in the tuning room and saw their side bevel guides).

So if you really want to ski ice like a pro, get out the 7 degree side edge bevel and get the Ginzu's going!

I apologize for the long post but i just had 2 shots of espresso!!!!

Over & out!
post #19 of 24
You PNW skiers are just spoiled. Here's the weather we deal with.

"The above normal temperatures continued through the end of December. A series of disturbances passing just south of the lower Great Lakes brought snow to Central Ontario and significant freezing rain to Southern Ontario on December 28 and 29. North and east of Lake Simcoe to the Ottawa Valley reported 10 mm of freezing rain with sporadic power outages in the Orillia area. Ottawa saw 5 mm of freezing rain fall within 4 hours the evening of December 28. Approximately 12 hours of freezing drizzle followed, for a total of 8.2 mm of freezing precipitation by 1:00 pm on December 29."

What do you do when everything looks like glass? Go skiing of course. Here's from the next day.


Carving's only hard if you're trying to stay out of the fall line
post #20 of 24
Nice post A-man. Thanks for the tips. I'll try a lighter touch and <90ยบ edge angle in the future. I've been on a run like that where I couldn't stop. Skis perpendicular to the fall line only slowed the rate of acceleration. Man, that's scary! I would have been looking for my pole in the lost and found at the end of the day, rather than do that run twice. Props to you for going back and getting it.
post #21 of 24
Great post Atomicman. Did you attempt to sideload the downhill ski in those conditions?
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Great post Atomicman. Did you attempt to sideload the downhill ski in those conditions?
I tried everything, but was probably too tense thinking I would slide to somewhere near New Mexico if I completley lost it!
post #23 of 24
Patience is key. Last year, Le Massif, 80 km north wind...not gusts, a steady wind. The slopes face south. No snow whatsoever at the top of the hill -- just a sheet of ice, like on a skating rink. 3 turns and you are moving 70+ km/h. It took me 100 yds to stop, the kids took between 50 and 75. ( We were doing one footed drills -- with that tailwind, you had to have lots of patience ).

I used a 1/2 degree base, 3 deg side. The 1/2 degree base really matters -- you can re-engage much much sooner, and less of the force is parallel to the snow.
post #24 of 24
I did the sideways/backwards/flailing uncontrolable slide on Upper Skyward at Whiteface. The scene at top of the trail looked like a slapstick comedy, everyone, and I mean everyone was falling and sliding, even the patrol that were trying to help all the casualties (all 6 of them) were out of control, but not enough to stop them for yelling at me for speeding, to which my response was, "I would slow down if I could!"

My solution was to forget trying to turn get my self fall line oriented and ski through it, worry about the hyper velocity I was now carrying once I get into some carvable snow. I was on Head ic300 carvers with 1.5* side and 1* base bevels, freshly sharpened.
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