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A request of novice skiers - Page 2

post #31 of 67
Well, my wife reading over my shoulder, concluded that if one can't avoid slower skiers then perhaps one should not be on that terrain too. Be responsible for yourself instead of expecting others to responsible for you.

I say , a heart felt, joyous, ear splitting YIP YIP YIPPIE usually gets the attention of those below and, more often than not, freezes them in their tracks as they look up to see the jerk screaming. I also tend to see the slower skiers as moving slolom poles and I pick a line around them.

As for people stopping beneath a rise or other blind spots well, that is a no no but often times you can't pick where you fall or begin to loose control and stop. Once again, the uphill skier is responsible to ski in control. As my wife just pointed out, would you drive your car 100mph around a blind turn? Perhaps you do but if you crash into a deer on the road......
post #32 of 67
I agree with you Stogie, there is plenty of more difficult terrain that novice skiers can challenge themselves on, why do they feel the need to cluck it up on double black terrain and present a hazard to themselves and others.
Do they have the right to be there... sure they do, but by using that as a reason they render the idea of slow skiing areas for beginners to be discrimination against those who want to ski fast.
I am in favor of there being slow skiing areas that expert skiers must ski slowly through whether in control or not.
post #33 of 67
I will have to admit, I dotn mind waiting for the so called Green Goblins" to slide, (usually on their sides of back ) out of the way, but I was shocked a few weeks ago by a group with no clue.

I was skiing typical midwestern blacks (really short) and at the botom a group that was new to ccaberfae asked me how the skiing was on the other side of the hill I had come from. I replied "Its the steepest they have her adn it is a little icy in hte middle but if you dont freak out, you should be able to get across it. Its a little moguled on the right sides." At that point the looked at each other and said, "WWould you reccomend it for us beginners?" I looked at them incredukously and replied, "absolutely not, its got trees on it, your decision though" and then boarded the lift.

As surely as the sky is blue, they skiied it and slid to the bottom in the time it took me to ski the adjoining run 6 times, all the while watching them cling to the slope as they slid, hoping they wouldnt hit anything. Maybe they didnt learn anything about technique, but I am sure they learned at least SOME lesson about skiing that day.
post #34 of 67
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:
>>>If they are just stupid and don't bother to take a couple or lessons and charge to the top of the mountian, I tend to want to grind them under my boot sole, except for the fact that that would cause excess wear.<<<

Funny, in 57 years of skiing I have never been angry with or about another skier/border on the slopes, not even the ones that wiped me out and the one that knocked me unconcious last season.

They didn't hit me on purpose, I'm sure, just loss of control. As for the learners: years ago when the ski patrol asked for management to do something about a trail that started out as an easy green and then turned into a black which suckered in many beginners, managment replied that for the price of a lift ticket any skier buys the right to break their leg on any hill at the area. Bulldozers eventually turned the slope into a blue, years later.

I'm not saying I'm angry with them, but if they can barely make it down the greens, what in the heck are they doing on the blacks? If you can't ski a green, you don't need to be on a blue, if you can't ski a blue, you don't need to be on a black. The people I rave about have been skiing 6 hours tops. You get on a lift with one of them the conversation goes something like this:
"How ya' doin?" (dumb person)
"I'm good you?" (Me)
"Alright I guess." (dumb person)
"You ski a lot?" (dumb person)
"About twice a week" (me)
"this is my first time, and golly gee, that black is tough." (dumb person)
"But dad gum it, I'm a goin' to ski it no mater what it takes!"

Mercifully, the lift ride is usually over about here.
post #35 of 67
Hi Stogie--

Yes, this IS a great forum. Glad you found it! And I've got to say, this has been a pretty balanced discussion of an issue that could certainly produce heated disagreement!

While I strongly defend the right of any skier to choose to ski any run, I will also defend the rights of others to be annoyed! There is a rule of etiquette, if not of law, that suggests respecting the advanced terrain, and trying not to unnecessarily interfere with the enjoyment of the experts on their own turf. I get as annoyed as anyone when I see a snowboarder, for example, plowing all the snow off a nice powder run with a straight sideslip, or when I have to wait in line while someone repeatedly fails to successfully load a T-Bar to advanced terrain. But I'll usually keep my annoyance to myself, and I realize that it's par for the course for resort skiing today.

Sorry about the unavailability of my book. It is completely sold out. There will be a new edition out by the end of the summer. I PROMISE! (Everyone--hold me to it!)

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #36 of 67
I'd like to quote something Ganjala posted shortly after the Academy-

"There's a big difference between skiing expert terrain, and expert skiing".

I'm sure that many of the posters to this thread might do well to understand this idea and adjust their thought process accordingly. Every proponent of Stogie's thought self-professes to being an expert, by virtue of the terrain they are skiing.
But are you really?
One poster offered the idea that the number of seasons skiing constitutes an expert. But I have seen hundreds of skiers who have been skiing 20 plus seasons that aren't even close to be an "expert". But I find them on black or double black terrain, regularly.

I'm sure there are some very fine skiers on this site, but if every one who professes to be an expert actually is- the number of expert skiers in the country just doubled!

post #37 of 67
HERE, HERE, VSP! I made the same observation in comparing the Academy to Whistler's Ski E'Spirit.

Most novice skiers taking that program will end up skiing the blue trails on Blackcomb, after 4 days. Sometimes, the instructor simply wants to get them off all the darn cattracks. Although its an ego boost, especially for an eastern skier, 2 years later, I realize that you are merely surviving them. If anyone is in the way of your chosen line, you may feel frustrated.

But learning real TECHNIQUE, as opposed to bragging rights means that these things are minor disturbances, as opposed to something that can actually ruin your time on the slope.
post #38 of 67
I'll be the first to admit I'm not a expert skier. I can't ski moguls for crap, plus I'm just getting back into skiing after 5 years, but I can handle myself in the trees and the steeps around here well enough that I don't have to worry. I also do so with confidence. I see a lot of people who can't even handle a trip down a somewhat steep face without plowing, and thats just a bit much.
post #39 of 67
Posted by LM:
A tribe sized family was skiing a blue slope. Neither the parents, and defintiely not the children, had the skills to ski this terrain.
With that in mind, I saw the saddest thing today.

I was on the lift, and a boy of about 7 was on the ground on a black run. It was steep and ICY..I had been down it several times that day. HIS FATHER was standing next to him, angry, and yelling at him to get up. What kind of fun is that for a little kid? I wanted to ski down and knock this guy out. GRRRR! :

Now, the father had the skills to be there. This boy did not. I see this a LOT in the midwest...mostly fathers, too.... berating their kids while pushing them into terrain that is WAY above them.

Parents, get a clue! Stay where your kids can have FUN learning, and not end up psychologically damaged by your abuse! It isn't pleasant for others to watch either.
post #40 of 67
That is awful! You know that kid is not going to keep skiing when he grows up! I think that when you involve children, it goes beyond who has the right to be anywhere. Putting your kids in danger so that you can ski the trails suitable to your own ability is just plain wrong! Equally wrong is taking them down trails thata are at the limit of your own ability. I remember the situation with that mess in Brighton. The parents were not stable enough on their own skis to help their own kid up. Before you bumped into the kid, I remember thinking that one of the parents is definitely going to hit their own kid, or else, one of who knows how many of the siblings were going to run into each other.
post #41 of 67
It's interesting that when I take lessons my instructors will almost always take me into terrain that will be very challenging for me and then after the lesson encourage me to continue pushing my limits in a similar fashion. When I'm with the instructor NOBODY gives me crap even if we're skiing cautiously down steeper terrain but if I'm alone does that make me fair game? Mind you I'm not an idiot traversing across wide runs at speed looking like a duck in a shooting gallery. When I see people way over their heads in tougher terrrain more than anything I admire their guts and worry for their safety. Of course I am lucky enough to ski relatively uncrowded terrain and am not constantly hemmed in by crowds. Just my 2 cents. skidoc
post #42 of 67
I suspect that the difference (assuming you had a good instructor!) is that the instructor saw you ski on more moderate terrain, made an assessment of your skills and technique, and judged that you were ready for the next step. Certainly at some point you have to attempt more challenging terrain to progress, once you have the skills to do so. Sometimes we don't realize we are ready for that next step, and it takes a pro to nudge us over the edge (literally and figuratively). I know that was the case for me.
post #43 of 67
One thing about the novices in crowding expert(midwest) slopes is that they have nowhere else to go. I was appalled when I was at Chesnut ski area in Illinois and there were densities of at least 70 skiers to an acre on the main slopes. however with out more ski terrain there is no way of decreasing this. I don't know about you, but if I was learning I would be more afraid of all the other skiers than the difficulty of a slope. I can see where stogie is coming from and it is sometimes annoying when I have chosen a line from the top of a hill for terain features or the like and a beginner stops right on that particular feature.
post #44 of 67
Originally posted by Bullet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
But I'll usually keep my annoyance to myself, and I realize that it's par for the course for resort skiing today.
You said it Bob, full agreement. We all are, at times in places above our comfort zone. But maintaining awareness of our surroundings keeps us safe.</font>[/quote]Situation Awareness!
post #45 of 67

The run I saw that kid on was Eagle at Chestnut. And it was SUPER crowded yesterday, and I spent the day on the blacks because they were less crowded. It wasn't a whole lot of fun anywhere else.

That's why I ski the blacks in the Midwest. It's less dangerous!
post #46 of 67
I'm a newbie skier and thought I'd chime in. My wife and I started skiing this year and are having a blast, even though I'm an old fart. We've taken a few lessons and I think we're making good progress, but we're not good skiers. Pierre talked about learning to become an expert on the greens. We've mostly stayed on greens or easy blues. We try to work on the techniques our instructors have given us. It's much easier to do this on easy terrain where fear is not an issue. Seems each time we go out, terrain we thought was challenging last time is easy. I'm convinced we'll progress most rapidly by staying on terrain we find fairly easy, and then venturing on to stuff that is just a bit more difficult -- but not terrain that far exceeds our ability. Guess I largely agree with the original post, folks like us shouldn't be trying really difficult terrain, it won't help us learn to ski better, it's not fun, and it potentially puts both us and others at risk. I do think some ski areas lack good terrain for novice but improving skiers like us -- at one place the green runs were "3 turns and your done" and there was very little terrain that was appropriate for our skill level. I've also seen way too many kids whose basic skills consist of pointing their skis straight down the hill and going as fast as they can till they eventually crash, but that's a different issue.
post #47 of 67
Despite having the same frustrating experience, a paying customer is entitled to access anywhere in bounds along with patrol services, some grooming, avalanche control, etc. Whether or not that access is used in a responsible manner is worthy of a whole other posting.

If only Breckenridge didn't sell "I skied Mach I" shirts in the 70's to impress the newly minted intermediate skiers...
post #48 of 67
Originally posted by Pierre:

The miracle that I figured out was you become an expert on green terrain, not black terrain. These slow folks would all be off the terrain that is over their heads if the myth were put to rest but the pseudo experts keep propagating the myth. Those pseudo experts deserve the gapers on the wrong slopes. : [/QB]
I've been discovering this as I've skied with my kids. It isn't that I don't want to ski with them, but last year I really dreaded spending the day on the greens with my then-4-year-old daughter. I wanted to SKI, and fast! Funny thing is, after spending a lot of time patiently carving turns and thinking of other things to do to break up the "monotony" of the easy slopes, now that we're skiing harder stuff (or when I do take a few runs with other friends or trade off with hubby), lo and behold -- the harder stuff is much easier and I am more versatile. Who knew?!
post #49 of 67
I feel the same way- there really is nothing I can't stand more than seeing a parent getting annoyed with their kid when he/she may be intimidated by steep or challenging conditions. I'm not the most patient person but you really have to put all that away when out there with your kids. This year my 7 year old can ski most of the mountain with me, last year he couldn't. The funny thing now is when he takes me (or coerces me) into the tight glades which he can rip around in on his 120's and old gaper dad has to listen to "c'mon Dad, what's taking you so long."
post #50 of 67
My. $0.02 those folks who are in over their abilities generally aren’t complying with the code. Are they skiing in control? Are they stopping where they are not a hazard? Are they checking up hill from a stop?
post #51 of 67
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
But I'll usually keep my annoyance to myself, and I realize that it's par for the course for resort skiing today.
You said it Bob, full agreement. We all are, at times in places above our comfort zone. But maintaining awareness of our surroundings keeps us safe.

[ February 17, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Bullet ]
post #52 of 67
my secret desire is to have FAST skiing areas.
IG-I've seen places like this. They even put out blue and red flags so you can find the place. One person at a time, lots a fun. You can go as fast as you want. They can tell you how fast you are too!
post #53 of 67
As a relatively novice skier (I have about 19 days to my credit in 4 seasons.) I'd like to make a few comments. First I am going to jump right on the fence and say that the skiers without the skills should stay off of the advanced terrain and they have every right to be there if they wish provided that they are not doing things there that actively place them or others in danger. Simply being there or traversing across the hill does not count in and of itself. Stopping where they cannot be seen and starting downhill without looking certainly count and things like crossing in front of other skiers, even though they are downhill and have the right of way, is dumb and shouldn't be condoned. But still I agree with the other posters that have pointed out that if you consider yourself to be a good enough skier to be there you should have no trouble avoiding them and I cannot see why you would be actually annoyed to see someone struggling.

Now my experiences. I have only ever gone down a black slope on accident. (There is a notable exception. A very easy trail that some how got labeled black that I went down quite a few times one day to avoid the crowds on the other terrain.) Us new skiers do not know the mountain like you do. Despite checking out the maps at the top of the lifts and pulling out a trail map from my pocket as needed (do you ever laugh when some GAPER pulls out a map?) I still can get lost and / or make wrong turns. And I have paid the price. Maybe others do not, but I really take my time at these times. It usually means having to make a turn or two and stop or traversing. I wait until I can't see any one coming or at least that I won't interfer with them. I stop frequently so I don't get out of control. Never once have any of the advanced skiers even stopped to see if I was OK much less to suggest a traverse out that I might not know about or to offer a tip that might get me down more easily.

Some people chose to do stupid things and that is their right. Avoid 'em and go on. If you can't avoid them get to some easier terrain, you shouldn't be there either. Maybe even try being nice. If they are being dumb you could even tactfully point out their danger and keep someone from getting hurt. Or send Ski Patrol to them who might could help them to get down safely, instruct them on the safety code, and suggest some alternate terrain they might enjoy. But not everyone you see on that terrain is there on purpose either. I cannot be alone in getting lost in a strange place. And even if they are there on purpose, they may not know enough to know that it is a bad idea.

Now people that drag their kids down this stuff... You can flog them for putting their kids in danger.
post #54 of 67
If only Breckenridge didn't sell "I skied Mach I" shirts in the 70's to impress the newly minted intermediate skiers...

I had to smile when I read that. About ten years ago or so and I was not nearly as good a skier as I am today, (although the learning never stops!) Mach I at Breckenridge was the first double black I skied. I looked at the hill and made a self-evaluation. I could handle the hill but the bumps where what I had been having difficulty with. No one was skiing that trail so I went for it! I took my time, fell a few times but only traversed when out of balance. I skied that run until I did it without falling, even though I probably looked pathetic trying it. I was so pleased at the time that I bought one of those
street signs with Mach I on it. Should I have been on that run?
Probably not. Did I learn from it? YES. Was I having fun looking stupid trying it? YES.
post #55 of 67
I was refering more to gladed/double black terrain which really ought to be restricted, its simply a safety issue. For all those out there trying to ski a black or bumped run because they're trying to improve, more power to them! However here on the east coast we get "ski trip gapers" basicly a bunch of newbies who come on buses, and who's only goal is to see who can somehow manage to get down the toughest trail on the mountain. They never take lessons and are not only a danger to themselves but to others too. I've watched some of these skiers nearly kill themselves in gladed terrain because they can't ski it. Now this is the part that worries me, someone gets seriously hurt/killed in a glade and insurance companies begin telling ski areas not to open areas like that. That does not make me happy. As has been pointed out in other posts, there are slow skiing areas on the mountain, let those who want it have a fast/challenging area that they can ski without getting dirty looks from people.
post #56 of 67
Just an observation, and I'm not saying this applies to anyone here,
but did you ever notice that some of the people who complain about novices skking advanced slopes are sometimes the same people who make fun of people who ski groomers?
post #57 of 67
Dang, what kinda commie pinko thread have we got here? All you boys whinin' about your rights as advanced skiers oughta go drink a Budweiser and think about what it should mean, or used to anyway, to be a true 'Merican.
I mean really, get your panties unbunched and remember where we all came from. Ski areas are one of the last places in America where the 'Merican spirit, the spirit of adventure, the spirit of idiocy and idiosyncrasy we all love, is allowed to manifest itself in relative glory, although most of these places these days may seem sanitized and tame to the rest of us on this website.
At ski areas, legislation and litigators are held just enough at bay so recreationalists have the exhilarating opportunity to hang their butts out inappropriately or not meaning that guys like Billy Bob, Gawdbless'im, can have the time of his life out on the edge before he goes home to 50 more weeks of mortgage payments, car payments, braces for the kids and not enough money for too much time spent working at a soul-killing job, not a vocation.
I will defend to the death his right to bust himself up if he decides he wants braggin rights on all them black diamonds.
The alternative for any red-blooded patriot, this affront we propose to a great American tradition, is unconscionable. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ February 17, 2003, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: vera ]
post #58 of 67
post #59 of 67
Thread Starter 
Well, I have resisted the baiting as long as I can.

There have been many replies which seem to attack those who hold my opinion. And instead of debating what I and others who share my view said, the attackers have resorted to a kind of character assassination. Congratulations! You have successfully manipulated the discussion into "if you agree with stogie on this topic then you're not one of us REAL expert skiers". To wit:

(Vail Sno Pro)
There's a big difference between skiing expert terrain, and expert skiing".

I'm sure that many of the posters to this thread might do well to understand this idea and adjust their thought process accordingly. Every proponent of Stogie's thought self-professes to being an expert, by virtue of the terrain they are skiing.
But are you really?
This is BS. What a ridiculously sweeping and stupid statement. There is a vast difference between being an expert skier and being an advanced skier. There is a vast difference between an advanced skier and an intermediate or beginning skier. Now I don't particularly like categorization, I think it is an intellectual crutch. But if you PSIA guys are going to be the purveyors of this system you should at least grant that there is a step in between intermediate and "expert". But maybe you don't want to. Maybe doing so will make you less important. Or even necessary. If you're not an "expert" then you are a terminal intermediate, right? More lessons are what you need! Here, validate my existence!

For the record, I freely admit that I am not an "expert" skier. I can ski most blacks well, but I have trouble on some. I consider myself and Advanced Skier. I don't have trouble "avoiding" novice skiers. My whole point is I shouldn't have to and wouldn't if they just stayed on terrain more appropriate to their ability level. I am very conscientious of those of lower ability while skiing: I police myself, that is I slow down so I don't frighten them, and I often ski at the side of the trail, where their is little room for error. My point is that they should be as conscientious of others.

The last PSIA instructor I had was less skilled than I. I am finished with PSIA and your categories, and have been for a while.
post #60 of 67
Brandon >>> "Simply being there or traversing across the hill does not count in and of itself. Stopping where they cannot be seen and starting downhill without looking certainly count and things like crossing in front of other skiers, even though they are downhill and have the right of way, is dumb and shouldn't be condoned. "

These are some of the more important keys for lesser skilled skiers harmoniously using the same resources any of our lift tickets grants us. Advanced skiers also have a roll in this.

If a novice skier has just started down a difficult slope somewhere near below you, it would be stupid to immediately follow their line because it is likely they will be making slower turns back and forth across your fall line and as an advanced skier overtaking them is inevitable. Thus we either move laterally to use a different line or wait a bit till they have gone far enough to be near a likely stop.

Any skiers will at times abandon one fall line and traverse some ways across a slope. On an advanced slope with other skiers above, that requires keeping a peripheral glance uphill when initiating such to see how that might effect any other skier traffic coming down. In some conditions one must be even more careful as when storm skiing, bundled up in head gear with difficult vision to the side. Thus the wise skier is aware of such limitations with others and navigates more carefully depending on conditions and traffic. It is inevitable that sometimes another slow skier will at times unawares drift into an advanced skier's fall line. When I see this ahead, I may in a loud though easy voice several turns above say something brief like "OUT OF MY LINE" or just "YO". -dave
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