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Think with your feet and provide them a good working environment! - Page 4

post #91 of 117
I've skied in a lot of different boots, leather lace-ups, cross-country boots, leather buckled boots with plastic plates on the sides, mushy rentals, typical overlap boots (crossmax10), and rock-hard cast-in-place race boots.

The old leather-plastic combination allowed a lot of adjustment of the ankle, I enjoyed the freedom of movement it provided. However when skiing as fast as I can on an icy or hard-pack piste I much prefer the race boots, even though my ankles were pretty much limited to forward flex. The instant full-on full-power response was just what I wanted.

Still, even with the ankle locked in tight, somehow using muscles that would otherwise have caused movement provided a solider path and helped energy get transmitted to the skis edge.
post #92 of 117
Thread Starter 
Well said! Exactly.
post #93 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosh View Post
One last thought on this move I would say that it should be classified as a nuance move, not a gross move. That is why it is not affecting the kenetic chain adversly. it is very small and the reason for needing the twist is simply that it magnifies the effect of the eversion move. If you don't use a bit of a twist it will take much longer to egage and often what people do is make a micro skid at the top of the turn because they are turning their feet in the direction of the new turn which biomechanicly will lessen the edge just when you are trying to build edge. Effectivly you just don't hook up cleanly until much later in the turn. This is simply a move to hook up the edge as early as possible the very first opportunity in the turn just after the skis are flat.

Another thing to consider here is that if you think about it as the ski is flattening out from the old turn it has energy moving in a direction that is the direction of the old turn not the new one yet. For the first instance of the turn it is possible and fairly advantagous to allow the direction of the turn to change a bit more naturaly by allowing the ski to almost be guided up the hill onto the new edge for that first instance.
Bravo, well said, You stated the concept much more clearly than I have been trying to for weeks!
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Bravo, well said...
I agree, Mosh explained it well. However, I still have my doubts about the need and benefits of the twist.
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Are you suggesting that if you don't intentionally apply this bit of twist you will micro skid the top of the turn?
well what normaly happens to the "average person", is that they are in a hurry at the neutral point to re-gain the grip with the snow. So what they often do unless coached into another way of thinking, is to twist the feet toward the new turn. To try to pick up the grip. Well the reality of this movment is that you end up suppinating within the boot slightly, hence you end up less edged at the most critical moment. So the question is now are you patient enough to wait for it while your skis slide into the turn? Or will you force the skid to occur? I think many variables play into this moment however this critical moment is the difference between truly skiing arc to arc or skiing arc to micro skid into an arc.

So the answer is it depends on who, where, what, how, why, but this idea is one way to ensure that you carve arc to arc every time without fail. By the way the neutral moment ends up melting away and you pass through so fast with so much more engagement above the fall line it opens doors to more aggressive movement patterns that can just curl your hair. When you have powerful engagement with the snow you can increase the inclination prior to the fall line by a power of 3. I believe that this move sets up the opportunity to do that. With a neutral moment without any rotational move you have to be more patient and less active. I wish I knew how to post video and do all the cool stuff we could slow down a GS or SL turn from almost anyone and point to this move.
post #96 of 117
Hey Si! I was wondering when we would hear from you.

Ok this, in my twisted vision is saying exactly the same thing as we have been talking about but, in reverse. Lets walk through it.

There you are minding your own business, and all of a sudden you pick up the ski and twist it slightly to the inside. well what is happening to the weighted leg? Does it twist (SKID) or does it carve into this turn? I will answer for you it carves into the turn I hope this is right. Well anyway the reason for this is that when you ratate the inside leg, probably the whole body is turning as well and it is very hard not to rotate the weighted leg as well. So immagine this ski sliding along and all of a sudden there is rotational force coming from above but we dont want to skid, so we allow the rotation but dont turn the foot with the rotation we allow it to continue straight. what we have created is pronation in reverse. From the top down. Not from the bottom up. Ok with this?

So in summation pronation is one word that discribes three seportate movements. Eversion, abduction (external rotation), and dorsiflexion. When ever rotation is evedent there is some sort of pronitory movement. Unless it is whole leg rotation with the foot. then it is not from pronation. But in the case where we want the ski to track straight but we rotate the body on top, the foot becomes the weak link. This exersize will simply cause the ski to edge because of pronation, and will then change direction.
post #97 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosh View Post
So why not just tip the feet?

Sorry I have not figured out how to quote yet but Big E this is why

Biomechanicly speaking the word pronation is one word that talks about three seporate planes of movements at one time. So eversion, inversion (tipping) describes one plane of movement. Dorsiflexion, plantarflexion (raising lowering) describe another plane. Internal rotation or adduction, and abduction (twisting) another. So when we say pronation we are talking about abduction, eversion, and usualy dorsiflexion working in harmoney. So any time you isolate one of the planes of movement you will sugnificantly reduce the amount of movment because you eliminate two others. For instance if you hang your foot and simply try to evert or lift the little toe side of the foot while completely eliminating any rotation of the foot you will find that the amount that you can move is smaller than if you add rotation to this move you will increase the range of this motion. It corrosponds with a turning away as well. Try putting your foot on the floor and get an idea of how far you can raise the little toe off the floor without a twisting motion. Now twist inwards see how much. now twist outwards and again compair. What do you find?
What I find is that this rotation is a secondary and undesireable effect.

When one attempts to edge the skis at the top of the arc, the weight is being moved or is already on the ball of the foot. This rotary force present in the tipping movement can and will break the tails of the skis out into a skid without some sort of movement to counteract the rotation induced by the tipping effort at edge change. Some effort to "resist the twist".

What appears to be suggested by posters here is not to quench this rotation, but instead to ADD to the rotation.

How that will ever result in a clean arc-to-arc turn is quite beyond me.
post #98 of 117
Thread Starter 
BigE,

the rotation we are advocating is actually in the opposite direction you are describing. twist left to turn right, or twist left and tip right simultaneously to carve to the right. We are if fact resisting the twist you describe by twisting the opposite way.
post #99 of 117
I thought mosh was talking about INITIATION, not the turn finish.

My mistake.
post #100 of 117
What if we just maintain ski direction - from edge release to new edges?

Release - switch - engage, again maintain ski direction through the process. No twisting is encouraged and the feet maintain a tracking plane that allows for more consistency moving to new edges through 'transition.'

Vhy do vee need to tvist? Oy...
post #101 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I thought mosh was talking about INITIATION, not the turn finish.

My mistake.

Whoa whoa, hold, I say hold on there!

We are talking about initiation. Let's say we are finishing a turn to the left and initiating a turn to the right, as we make the edge change the feet twist to the left as they tip to the right to engage the new edges. This is the "resist the twist" (into the turn) that you advocate only more so because we are actually twisting toward the old turn even as the edges engage for the new turn.
post #102 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
What if we just maintain ski direction - from edge release to new edges?

Release - switch - engage, again maintain ski direction through the process. No twisting is encouraged and the feet maintain a tracking plane that allows for more consistency moving to new edges through 'transition.'

Vhy do vee need to tvist? Oy...
What you describe is what most good skiers do. Better skiers actively twist a bit more to engage the edges more aggressively.
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Better skiers actively twist a bit more to engage the edges more aggressively.
What are you basing the above on? I've asked all the great skiers and coaches I know and none of them use this move. Seems strange.
post #104 of 117
Remember gang this is a NUANCE move not easy to see or feel it is so small however so important and powerful. I would say that this is on the verge of quantum skiing. sub atomic movment paterns. Easy to take this too far and confuse this for some big bad new move. It simply is just as we are saying a way to think about making clean arcs. Here in Aspen, there is not a trainor that is working here that is not up to speed on this one.
post #105 of 117
There is a post on another forum where HH chimes in on this move. He doesn't seem to be in agreement with the need for the twist.
post #106 of 117
I don't think it is biomechanically sound. Triplanar movement of the foot is just how we are wired. Allowing the foot to adapt to taking a load is another. I think folks should review nolo's summaries of DavidM's posts on the biomechanics of the foot, and gait mechanics.

As was stated by a poster in this thread, this move is counter intuitive.

Personally, I think it interferes with the outside foots ability to adapt (balance) prior to loading, and with the inside foots ability to carry a load.

But hey, that's just my opinion.
post #107 of 117
All we can do now is wait for snow and the truth shall set you free!!!!
post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
There is a post on another forum where HH chimes in on this move. He doesn't seem to be in agreement with the need for the twist.
Well, there you have it. If HH doesn't agree with it, it must not be so.
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosh View Post
All we can do now is wait for snow and the truth shall set you free!!!!
I'll pay special attention to this move. Believe me. Nothing would please me more than to learn a new parlour trick!
post #110 of 117
I guess it is like this... do we pronate or suppinate to start a turn?
I end up trying to pronate, the only way to pronate is with some sort of rotation due to the fact that rotation is part of pronation. So if your gonna pronate you will rotate. It is very simple.

I would agree that this is not something that most people are aware of or know that they do conciously. But, never the less it is happening believe it or not. It is a simple triplanor reality.
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
What you describe is what most good skiers do. Better skiers actively twist a bit more to engage the edges more aggressively.
So good skiers are better than better skiers?

I couldn't disagree more. In the race world, the better skiers would be slower than the good skiers. The better skier's twist is something we teach out of those who have it.

And no, most good skiers don't maintain direction through the switch, based on personal observations.
post #112 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
So good skiers are better than better skiers?
Nnnnnooo, better skiers are better than good skiers because they are better:

Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
I couldn't disagree more. In the race world, the better skiers would be slower than the good skiers. The better skier's twist is something we teach out of those who have it.
How could the better skiers be slower, they are the better skiers???:

Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
And no, most good skiers don't maintain direction through the switch, based on personal observations.
That is what I said, It is the "better" skiers that use this nuance!:
post #113 of 117
Hey Max,
You've tried it with bare feet; you've tried it in ski boots. Now try it with your foot against a wall so it cannot rotate when you try to rotate it. Doesn't the foot feel more solid when you press it into the wall in a failed attempt to rotate it? Isn't tipping the edge of a solid foot better for pushing down on the floor with?
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Hey Max,
You've tried it with bare feet; you've tried it in ski boots. Now try it with your foot against a wall so it cannot rotate when you try to rotate it. Doesn't the foot feel more solid when you press it into the wall in a failed attempt to rotate it? Isn't tipping the edge of a solid foot better for pushing down on the floor with?
I've also attempted it on snow and it didn't work for me. But I didn't leave it at that. I asked a high level coach I know to experiment with the move and it didn't do anything for him either. I suspect that those of us that already tip with a closed kinetic chain don't need the additional twist.
post #115 of 117
There is a style of karate that uses a lot of punches with a vertical fist (the fingers horizontal with the ground like the horizontal parts of the letter E ). Other styles emphasize a twist at the end of their punches (so that the fist looks more like m). It seems to take longer for most folks doing the vertical fist (E) to learn how to get a nice crisp focus. I think if you understand the move it will help focus the initial bite of the edge, but if you don't it will only cause confusion.

It's better to work with your own coach. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Don't change horses in the middle of a stream. You are doing fine with your instruction; it's not time to break out of the mold yet.
post #116 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I've also attempted it on snow and it didn't work for me. But I didn't leave it at that. I asked a high level coach I know to experiment with the move and it didn't do anything for him either. I suspect that those of us that already tip with a closed kinetic chain don't need the additional twist.
Yes, you are probably superior beings:
post #117 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Yes, you are probably superior beings:
Absofreakinlutely!
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