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Is the Twin replacing the all mountain ski?

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
The more I demo skis, and the more I read reviews, and the more I see the wave of these threads, the more I wonder.........Is the All mountain ski being replaced by the "ever versatile twin tip"?

I see the Bridge with a 92 waist being reviewed as "Bashes Crud; floats and pivots on fluff; carves a trench on corduroy"

This is just one of many that is lending to these type of reviews.

What other, if any, can you think of that would have been considered radical a few years ago, but is now coming to the forefront to be an all around ski for the recreational skier?
Is the All Mountain ski going to be a thing of the past?
post #2 of 50
I consider myself a recreational skier, however thats gonna change this season, but last season I switched over to some twins, from a all mountain ski, I actually found it easier to improve my skiing on these, and had more success in the park.
post #3 of 50
No......................

The Bridge is a very good ski and is my favorite from the Volkl lineup this year. It is my favorite because it skis well but the number of tips per pair has nothing to do with that evaluation. Personally, I'd like it better if were not a twin.

SJ
post #4 of 50
If you don't ski switch, there's no reason to buy a twinn tip ski.

Of course, if the ski happens to be an awesome performer and you enhance your skiing technique and you like the performance it delivers, then why not go for one.

They are usually cooler looking and they kick up a nice rooster tail giving fresh face shots to your friends who happen to be skiing behind you.
post #5 of 50
It seems to me that you're looking at "twin tips" (or "twips," as I like to call 'em) that aren't really hardcore twin tips.

I had a pair of the Karmas and they weren't a true twin tip in the way that some of the Armada, 4frnt, Ninth Ward, Faction, Liberty, and other twin dedicated company skis are.

Isn't The Bridge lumped in with Volks Freeride skis and I believe more or less replaces the Karma? If that's the case I dunno if I would call it a true twin as much as a hybrid aimed at non-park riding folks intrigued by the design.

I owned a pair of Armada AR5's, which are pretty much a true, center mounted twin that only had one mounting point (some of the more freeride oriented twins will offer Park/Pipe and Freeride mounting points that vary depending on what you intend to use the ski for). After a few days on the ski I ended up not liking it. It was a little soft and I'd mounted it back from the factory recommended line and it drove me into the back seat something fierce.

I think, based on my limited experience, I would have to second Lars credo: if you don't ride switch (and you're not hitting the park or doing freestyle acrobatics in the BC) then you really don't need to concern yourself with twips.



You will notice that all of the BIG ski companies jumped on the twin tip bandwagon after they became popular with some of the smaller companies (Armada, Line, 4Frnt). I sort of liken it to the new, busy topsheet designs (the big ski companies saw something that kids were into and realized the marketing/sales potential and went with it full bore).

That said, I have a pair of Lib Tech's in my quiver (not mounted yet) that would qualify as a twin on the surface, but the mounting point is far enough back that I don't consider them to be true twins (I always view a true twin as being more or less center mounted).

Then again, what do I really know?



PS:

SJ would be better suited to answer this question than me, but wasn't the "all mountain" ski just a marketing term created to sell more skis?

Most of us here know that there's not really such a beast as an all mountain ski, especially if you're skiing the whole mountain, rocks, slop, chop, taters, pow, slush, crud, cement, ice, cordouroy, corn, and all.
post #6 of 50
Of the three skis I currently ski on, two are squaretails and one is a swallow. The only twin I ever skied that I liked was a Gotama, and I think that would've been a much better ski if it was a square tail. Twin tips on anything but park skis are a fad. How many guys do you really see ripping it up backwards? As long as you're skiing facing forward, there is absolutely no benefit to a turned up tail. It's just 10-20cm of wasted material.
post #7 of 50
"It's just 10-20cm of wasted material"

You might have just nailed it on the head.

My 177cm Karmas were really short (not sure what the true running length was, but I know that the 185 Karma, when placed neck and neck to my 181 Titan 9s, were the same size).

The Lib Techs I mentioned above are 188, but only have a running length of 160, I believe, giving merit to your "10-20cm of wasted material" theory.

I'll letcha know how they run, though, after the season starts.

post #8 of 50
Perhaps the question should be rephrased as:

What makes twin tips work so well OUTSIDE the park?

Can the simple truth being, what makes a ski good IN park are also good for OUT of the park?

Let's see:

* medium width, a bit longer than the "norm" -- makes for a nicely stabled "platform", both to land on after air, or just skiing less than perfect surface...
* soft'ish, forgiving, not a lot of side cut -- again, great for any surface except for carving perfect lines on perfectly groomed runs.

Anything else?

Maybe it's not the tail, maybe it's simply the design of park skis are also perfectly valid for the rest of the mountain?
post #9 of 50
Maybe the design parameters for a park ski force people to ski something that is more forgiving and less demanding than their egos would otherwise have them pick.

I can't see a twintip replacing all-mountain skis for high-speed skiers though, at least not while keeping it a good park and pipe ski.
post #10 of 50
Twin-tips are a bear to get into gondola and bus ski carriers, or to stick into the snow outside for lunch where there is no rack. That should be all the reason you need to not get them, right?
post #11 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Maybe the design parameters for a park ski force people to ski something that is more forgiving and less demanding than their egos would otherwise have them pick.

I can't see a twintip replacing all-mountain skis for high-speed skiers though, at least not while keeping it a good park and pipe ski.
Ghost, I think you hit the nail on the head! Most of the wider skis on the market these days (85mm waist and greater) are designed & geared toward high speed, hard charging, big incomplete turns glorified in the films of the day, and are not true deep powder skis. For my money I want a relatively long, soft, even flexing ski for soft snow, & you can leave the extra snow spraying tip off!

Thank you
JF
post #12 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
If you don't ski switch, there's no reason to buy a twinn tip ski.
Twins make nice billygoating skis because you can traverse back and forth in the really tight rocky areas that you can't turn in.

I'm not much of a billygoater, but thats what the cool kids tell me.
post #13 of 50
Twin tips kill effective edge and therefore will not replace the all mountain ski. I like a little bit of a kick tail like the LPs have for two reasons. One it allows for reversing in tight spots and two, it won't absolutely lock you into a turn, meaning that you can release the tails if you need to.

That being said I love my Gotamas with the HUGE twin.
post #14 of 50
The twin isn't replacing the All-Mountain ski. It already IS the All-Mountain ski.

Of course not all twins are created equal. Skiing all-mountain on a true park ski is not all that fun. Skiing th pipe on Hellbents would probably be challenging too.
post #15 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post
It seems to me that you're looking at "twin tips" (or "twips," as I like to call 'em) that aren't really hardcore twin tips.

I had a pair of the Karmas and they weren't a true twin tip in the way that some of the Armada, 4frnt, Ninth Ward, Faction, Liberty, and other twin dedicated company skis are.

Isn't The Bridge lumped in with Volks Freeride skis and I believe more or less replaces the Karma? If that's the case I dunno if I would call it a true twin as much as a hybrid aimed at non-park riding folks intrigued by the design.

PS:

SJ would be better suited to answer this question than me, but wasn't the "all mountain" ski just a marketing term created to sell more skis?

Most of us here know that there's not really such a beast as an all mountain ski, especially if you're skiing the whole mountain, rocks, slop, chop, taters, pow, slush, crud, cement, ice, cordouroy, corn, and all.
Hybrid is the closest thing I can think of to describe these.
And yes, the all mountain ski has a target which it has hit very effectively. It can be the ski for the person who has no desire for a quiver, and handles most situations "ok".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Of the three skis I currently ski on, two are squaretails and one is a swallow. The only twin I ever skied that I liked was a Gotama, and I think that would've been a much better ski if it was a square tail. Twin tips on anything but park skis are a fad. How many guys do you really see ripping it up backwards? As long as you're skiing facing forward, there is absolutely no benefit to a turned up tail. It's just 10-20cm of wasted material.
Well, outside of the fact that its nice to let my husband know when I'm passing him. Good thing he has good goggles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post
Perhaps the question should be rephrased as:

What makes twin tips work so well OUTSIDE the park?


Maybe it's not the tail, maybe it's simply the design of park skis are also perfectly valid for the rest of the mountain?
There you have it. Some of these Hybrids are not really "twips", not really powder, not really bumpers, not really carvers(no kidding), but you can have a ton of fun on them in a little bit of everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ticos View Post
Twin tips kill effective edge and therefore will not replace the all mountain ski.

That being said I love my Gotamas with the HUGE twin.
And thus the question comes up again......if you were to make a choice between an AC4 or a goat, which would you pick(if you could only take one)?
I know they are two completely different skis, but

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
The twin isn't replacing the All-Mountain ski. It already IS the All-Mountain ski.

Of course not all twins are created equal. Skiing all-mountain on a true park ski is not all that fun. Skiing th pipe on Hellbents would probably be challenging too.
This is where I'm leaning more and more.
Lets say, have a choice of taking the Karma or the Nordica Nitrous to head to Stowe. Skiing is marginal, and the likelyhood of slop, crud, ice, bumps, and occasional fresh snow. I'd probably take my karma. A year ago, I'd have taken the Nitrous.
The more comfortable I get on the Hybrid's like the karma, the more likely I am to leave the all mountain ski at home.
post #16 of 50
On trend I've seen is non-twin all-mountain skis keep getting stiffer with more pronounced sidecuts. The result is skies that hold a turn longer & are less forgiving. Since I ski lots of moguls and crud I prefer skis that are moderate in flex and easy to roll off a turn, something I'm finding more and more only in twin models.
post #17 of 50
Twins will became more popular because of the parks and the younger generation uses of parks. I think they are the only skis that are gaining market share. But I just don't see twins taking over all mountain skis..
post #18 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick
And thus the question comes up again......if you were to make a choice between an AC4 or a goat, which would you pick(if you could only take one)?
I know they are two completely different skis, but
Having actually skied both of these skis and the Karma, I would choose the Goat hands down except on the iciest of days. That decision does have to be taken with a grain of salt though. The only time I intentionally ski hardpack is to get back to the lift, on traverses, skiing with my dad etc... Out of those three skis, I would buy the Goat then the AC4 and then the Karma.

Isn't that what a quiver is for. LP's are my all mountain sticks while the Goats are the touring/I'm too lazy to ski the LPs ski.
post #19 of 50
You guys are too spoilt for choice. Skiing Aus conditions requires a very solid all mountain that you think about for months. It can (sort of) grip that ice you need to deal with. A one/two week trip to Japan requires some phat skis you will never get any use out of again-ever

-compromise-a phat twinny-not a powder ski, not an all mountain but will handle a groomer, a good day after a 4 inch fall, float you in Japan insanity, your non owner mate riding them etc. This is why in some markets they are the new all rounder. and they are generally cheap).
post #20 of 50
This year I plan to ski Line Elizabeths, which kind of define twin tip skis. Based on reviews I've read and my son's experience last season on the Sir Francis Bacon (the Elizabeth's big brother ski), I plan to use these skis as my all mountain skis. Last year my son found the Bacons performed well in all conditions on the mountain from groomers to deep off piste conditions to the park. My mileage may vary.

Now, we just need some snow so that I can try out my new toys. Dreaming of snow...
post #21 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudpeak View Post
This year I plan to ski Line Elizabeths, which kind of define twin tip skis. Based on reviews I've read and my son's experience last season on the Sir Francis Bacon (the Elizabeth's big brother ski), I plan to use these skis as my all mountain skis. Last year my son found the Bacons performed well in all conditions on the mountain from groomers to deep off piste conditions to the park. My mileage may vary.

Now, we just need some snow so that I can try out my new toys. Dreaming of snow...
What are the dimensions on those?
Do they replace your Auras?
post #22 of 50
Seems like it to me, I nearly bought a pair, but then found a sweet deal on some GS and SL skis, and that quickly changed my mind.
post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
The twin isn't replacing the All-Mountain ski. It already IS the All-Mountain ski.

Of course not all twins are created equal. Skiing all-mountain on a true park ski is not all that fun. Skiing th pipe on Hellbents would probably be challenging too.
QFT. I asked in another thread what is an all mountain ski so far the only reply is a ski that sucks everywhere.
post #24 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick View Post
And thus the question comes up again......if you were to make a choice between an AC4 or a goat, which would you pick(if you could only take one)?
I know they are two completely different skis, but
Never having skied either. I would take the goat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick View Post
This is where I'm leaning more and more.
Lets say, have a choice of taking the Karma or the Nordica Nitrous to head to Stowe. Skiing is marginal, and the likelyhood of slop, crud, ice, bumps, and occasional fresh snow. I'd probably take my karma. A year ago, I'd have taken the Nitrous.
The more comfortable I get on the Hybrid's like the karma, the more likely I am to leave the all mountain ski at home.
Having skied the Nitrous but not the karma I would take the karma.
post #25 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by trekchick View Post
What are the dimensions on those?
Do they replace your Auras?
139-110-137 with a 15.5 m radius

They only come in one length—172

I suspect the Elizabeths will replace the Auras. After my son got the Bacons, he never skied his Mantras again because the Bacons performed so well across a broad range of conditions.
post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
Twins make nice billygoating skis because you can traverse back and forth in the really tight rocky areas that you can't turn in.

I'm not much of a billygoater, but thats what the cool kids tell me.
I was going to say the same thing, and I am kind of a dork

I billygoat alot and like getting myself into tight places and I dig a twin, or at least a semi-twin, for backing up in tight rocky spots. It also feels like it's easier to push and slide the tails around in these steep tight spots with variable snow. But yeah, it's not that big a difference.

If you're a ski mountaineer, twin tips also suck for cramming your skis into the slope to use as an anchor.

But overall, I dig twins, I don't ski park so much anymore, but I have lots of fun just dorking around on rollers and such spinning 180's and doing little switch takeoffs. Makes the flat parts back to the lift from the goods more fun.
post #27 of 50
Another way to look at twins as All Mountain is what direction the non-twin "all mountain skis" are going. They're getting fatter, stiffer and more sidecut. Well, in theory that make them carve better on groomers and float better on softies for even the lesser skilled. But a stiff wide plank on fresh powder, while floats, isn't much fun! Same goes with a wide stiff carver: it works, if you're willing to work harder!

Twins are kind of your "back to basic" skis. Soft, forgiving, versatile under the skilled legs.

The way I look at "specialized" tools are: they're most efficient at one thing, at the expense of the rest. The trouble is, "all mountain" has become too much of a "specialty" tool, specializing at allowing the average skier to go to more places they otherwise don't have the skill to go. In other words, a crutch of sort.

For those who're familiar with the biking world. I equate an "all mountain" ski to a hybrid, and some of the best twins (Karma, PE, Trouble Maker etc) as cycle-cross. Both are more versatile than the traditional specialty skis/bikes. But one (cycle-cross) requires more input from the user while offering the advantage of a much wider performance envelop.

Once a skier got a taste of the varied terrain the "all mountain ski" allow him to explore, he then "upgrades" to those good twins to maximize his enjoyments in the new terrains!
post #28 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudpeak View Post
139-110-137 with a 15.5 m radius

They only come in one length—172

I suspect the Elizabeths will replace the Auras. After my son got the Bacons, he never skied his Mantras again because the Bacons performed so well across a broad range of conditions.
I'd really like to know more, when you get a chance to ski these.
IF(big if) you decide to sell your auras, let me know.
post #29 of 50
It's not really All Mountain unless you can go switch in the park, right?

I've always thought 'all mountain' was a bunch of crap. I could care less about that distinction - I want a 'my mountain' ski. I want a ski that performs in every type of condition on every type of slope. But maybe I like my skis a lot softer than others so I can get away with different models other folks wouldn't like. Or maybe I like skis that have a huge sidecut, etc.
post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post
On trend I've seen is non-twin all-mountain skis keep getting stiffer with more pronounced sidecuts. The result is skies that hold a turn longer & are less forgiving. Since I ski lots of moguls and crud I prefer skis that are moderate in flex and easy to roll off a turn, something I'm finding more and more only in twin models.


Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post
Another way to look at twins as All Mountain is what direction the non-twin "all mountain skis" are going. They're getting fatter, stiffer and more sidecut. Well, in theory that make them carve better on groomers and float better on softies for even the lesser skilled. But a stiff wide plank on fresh powder, while floats, isn't much fun! Same goes with a wide stiff carver: it works, if you're willing to work harder!

Twins are kind of your "back to basic" skis. Soft, forgiving, versatile under the skilled legs.
I agree. Last year I bought the wife a pair of Dynastar Exclusive Legends. They were a little long for her. In liu of selling them, I mounted a pair of Look P12's and they are great for me to mess around in the tight trees and bumps with (they are now my rock skis). They actually work better than some twins I have tried. I hunted around for quite a while looking for the right type of ski for me. Rather than going with twins, I ended up with the Blizzard Titan 7's. They also meet the criteria alluded to above.
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