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Movement Analysis - Page 4

post #91 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Well, its good to know that the system works on the wedge progression at the highest levels.
you asked about why a level 3 would need to demo the early movements and the same would go for higher level movements. A level 1 is certified to teach beginning and lower level students. a level 2 is certified to teach up to intermediates through parallel . A level 3 is certified to teach dynamic parallel and beyond. They must all be able to demo beginning movements. They are not all qualified to teach higher level movements
post #92 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
What is "sideload a ski?"
I side loaded an edge on a rock once... after doing that I don't think I'd want to do the whole ski.
post #93 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Well, its good to know that the system works on the wedge progression at the highest levels.
I had to do Wedge and WC at Dev Team and Eastern Team tryouts. Even there, some do it better than others.
post #94 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Max, to turn this around on you, you are awfully critical of an industry where you might have a theoretical knowledge but you have never had to earn a living doing it. You are awfully quick to throw PSIA under the bus, but you've never taught skiing for money.
Just exploring the possibility that in the context of this forum the certs are not very helpful.

But now you have me wondering. Are students of the typical resort happy with their lessons if they are from a PSIA certified instructor? And does it make a difference where I get a lessons?
post #95 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
What is "sideload a ski?"
Sideloading is pushing or pulling (depending on which ski) the sidewall into the snow.
post #96 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
But now you have me wondering. Are students of the typical resort happy with their lessons if they are from a PSIA certified instructor? And does it make a difference where I get a lessons?
I suggest you contact PSIA and ask them
post #97 of 135
Max, this is not a put-down or criticism, so please don't take it as such.

Objectively, you don't have sufficient knowlege or experience in the PSIA cert process to critique it. Actually, you have NO experience in the process. You do not understand what a proper wedge christy is, why it is asked for, or what the movement patterns are that are being critiqued in an exam. You don't give the impression that you have any desire to know. You have very limited experience on skis and seemingly very limited knowlege of the history of ski instruction and ski teaching philosophies in general. Because of your total faith in the teachings of one ski guru (and the misrepresentations of PSIA teaching techniques promulgated by that guru, many of which I have listed in prior posts so I won't repeat them here), you seem totally closed minded about the possibility that any other teaching philosophies or techniques can have any value. People have tried in this thread, in extremely courteous fashion, to give you an overview of why PSIA expects its level 3-certified instructors to be able to demonstrate the low-dynamic-level wedge christy. You do not seem open to it because it dosn't match the teaching philosophy you personally believe in.

This thread started in a constructive manner but, as has often been the case in the past few months, is beginning to degenerate because of your relentlessness in pushing your personal opinions. You are a powerful and dogged advocate. You have a sharp mind and are utterly single minded. Praiseworthy in some ways, but perhaps not conducive to genuine open-minded discussion. Max, you have never taken a ski lesson with any of the people whose skills you question and you have no idea of their effectiveness. You are a relatively inexperienced, albeit passionate student of the sport, but a true student in any discipline exposes himself, with an open mind, to alternate philosophies and experiments to test a proposition, even one he feels is likely true. You really do not have the credentials or experience in the sport to be as dogmatic and sure of yourself as you appear.

I heard a definition of a wise man once that may be relevant here: A wise man is someone who realizes how little he really knows. The zealot, the advocate, by definition, has stopped learning and has closed his mind to the possibility of alternatives.

Perhaps you really believe that all you are doing in your many posts is honestly questioning other people's ways of doing things and that you are doing it in a spirit of genuine inquiry and the desire to learn. But honest questioning presupposes the possibility that the questioner is open to alternatives to his own beliefs; to the possibility of another point of view having validity. Are you? Honestly? Every time anyone on this forum suggests you try an alternate to something you have accepted as the only "true way" in ski technique, you refuse. Your answer is invariably, "My way works for me. I'm not going to consider changing it," I would invite you to take a lesson with one of the respected instructors on this site one day with an open mind, or just ski with him/her informally for a day. Try some alternatives to what you have accepted, even for that one day. If you did so with a truly open mind, I'd love to be there.

In reference to this thread's original topic: You are suggesting having positive and supportive MA in a separate section here on Epic. Very constructive. The mention of such helpful and well-meaning MA reminds me of something, however. The vicious way ESA skiers and instructors were trashed on the site whose teachings you espouse permanently taints all the other worthwhile things they have to say in my opinion. There was no excuse for it and the glee with which it was done was reprehensible. I never commented on this before, but it made an impression. An apology is long overdue.
post #98 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
IT AIN'T ABOUT ME DOING BETTER IT'S ABOUT MAKING THAT SKIER BETTER!!!

GET THE GIST?
Geez , Lonnie you don't have to yell at us. But this is the essence of instruction.
Am I qualified to critique HH ? I don't try . Nope but I am qualified to reach an understanding of what I see through discussion. I see what TheRusty sees and wonder what it could mean in an analysis of his movements. But skiing is a fluid sport. It is a state of constant movement and adjustment . To say his skiing is lacking is nit picking. He skis expertly but not all of his movements are perfect since he is human but his ability to adjust, recenter and overcome speaks for itself
post #99 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
You have very limited experience on skis...
True enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
...and seemingly very limited knowlege of the history of ski instruction and ski teaching philosophies in general.
To be clear, this is true, and I fully admit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Because of your total faith in the teachings of one ski guru (and the misrepresentations of PSIA teaching techniques promulgated by that guru, many of which I have listed in prior posts so I won't repeat them here), you seem totally closed minded about the possibility that any other teaching philosophies or techniques can have any value.
None of my questions or suggestions in this thread have anything to do with that other guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
You are a powerful and dogged advocate. You have a sharp mind and are utterly relentless.
And yet all I was proposing is that certs are of little use on an internet forum (video combined with writing is more useful I think). However, based on posts from others, I am now curious about the consistency of certs and instruction from one resort to another. And when taken farther, the actual student customer satisfaction at the different resorts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Max, you have never taken a ski lesson with any of the people whose skills you question and you have no idea of their effectiveness.
Have I questioned anyone's skill? My assumption is that the certs posting on Epic are the elite instructors. Isn't there another thread somewhere that says as much too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
You are a relatively inexperienced, albeit passionate student of the sport, but a true student in any discipline exposes himself, with an open mind, to alternate philosophies and experiments to test a proposition, even one he feels is likely true.
Could be. But, I've read lots of books, many of the posts on Epic, and spent a good bit of time with PSIA instructors as well as a US Ski Team bump skier. The assumption that I have exposure to only one system isn't completely correct. Although that assumption is understandable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
You really do not have the credentials or experience in the sport to be as dogmatic and sure of yourself as you appear.
Asking questions is dogmatic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
I heard a definition of a wise man once that may be relevant here: A wise man is someone who realizes how little he really knows.
I'm caught in this endless debate. Obviously I'm not a wise man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Every time anyone on this forum suggests you try an alternate to something you have accepted as the only "true way" in ski technique, you refuse.
Go check out Bud's thread on the rotary turn finish. I tried it on two different days this summer up at Hood. I tried to make it work but couldn't. I even went as far as to say that I probably lack the skills to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
The mention of such well meaning MA reminded me of something, however. The vicious way ESA skiers and instructors were trashed on the site whose teachings you espouse permanently taints all the other worthwhile things they have to say in my opinion...An apology is long overdue.
I had absolutely nothing to do with that thread.
post #100 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I had absolutely nothing to do with that thread.
You didn't try to stop it either. Yes, LOTS of folks are still bitter about that episode.

That thread is EXACTLY the reason I didn't send you any video when you PM'ed me during the season and asked me for video. Well that and the fact that I don't have any video of myself skiing. But if I had, I wouldn't have let you use it becuase I KNOW it would have ended up over there. Since I'm banned, and would not be able to defend myself, that would be totally unfair.

Yes folks have critiqued HH's skiing here, but if HH wanted to come to Epic and espouse his views or defend his skiing, I don't think he would be stopped.
post #101 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So when they said I was right about my analysis, I wasn't right, simply because since I can't ski like that, and therefore, I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about? I just got lucky?
You were probably correct with regards to the movements that are visible.
post #102 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
You didn't try to stop it either. Yes, LOTS of folks are still bitter about that episode.
Now its my job to police what happens over on the other site?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
But if I had, I wouldn't have let you use it becuase I KNOW it would have ended up over there.
I have not posted any video I've received via PM.
post #103 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Yes - a wedge christie in Aspen will be the same wedge christie in PA. The demo by an L3 in Aspen may or may not be more fluid than the L2 in PA, but the mechanics and the information shared will be the same. They may each have their own "bag of tricks" for reinforcing the movement pattern, but when the student gets to Aspen the progression plan will be consistent.
So, are all of you instructors in agreement with the above statement? Doesn't it boil down to all PSIA ski instruction is (more or less) the same?
post #104 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Now its my job to police what happens over on the other site?
Max, if you're going to be the ambassador for that teaching system here on epic, you have to accept others are going to hold you responsible for the actions of HH and his followers, just as you blame all of us PSIA types here for the actions of all the other instructors teaching out there simply because we teach using the same system. Sounds like hypocrisy, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I have not posted any video I've received via PM.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when you asked me for video, there was no way I was going to give you anything based on what happened with the ESA video on realskiers.
post #105 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Max, if you're going to be the ambassador for that teaching system here on epic, you have to accept others are going to hold you responsible for the actions of HH and his followers, just as you blame all of us PSIA types here for the actions of all the other instructors teaching out there simply because we teach using the same system. Sounds like hypocrisy, huh?
What? Me an ambassador. Dude, I want to be paid if that's the case! Look, I just like talking skiing and that other stuff happens to be what I know and its worked well for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when you asked me for video, there was no way I was going to give you anything based on what happened with the ESA video on realskiers.
OK, but I didn't even post in that thread. And I've never posted video someone sent me via PM, even when I could have done it to prove a point. Since you don't have vid maybe we'll ski together one day and then I can associate skiing style and ability with your writing. That would be great.
post #106 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, are all of you instructors in agreement with the above statement? Doesn't it boil down to all PSIA ski instruction is (more or less) the same?
I don't think I'd agree with that. I do expect that we'd all be on the same page though.
post #107 of 135
Hey Lonnie, if you want to post your video over there, just PM it to me and I'll take care of it!
As for that ESA critique, it could have been done as diplomatically as possible but the essence would have been almost the same by any honest person who is a student of TBTS. And I don't see that the reaction here would have been any different. Harkens back to my post a couple of days ago, many examples of what some here consider "good skiing" are considered to be errors in TBTS, and vice versa.
post #108 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
Hey Lonnie, if you want to post your video over there, just PM it to me and I'll take care of it!
As for that ESA critique, it could have been done as diplomatically as possible but the essence would have been almost the same by any honest person who is a student of TBTS. And I don't see that the reaction here would have been any different. Harkens back to my post a couple of days ago, many examples of what some here consider "good skiing" are considered to be errors in TBTS, and vice versa.
Thanks but no thanks miles...

The thing about the skiing in that video is that almost everyone in that video was "skiing to a task". They weren't making their "best" turns. What was in the video was something other than that. But that was not how it was presented in the context of that other place. It was "Look how bad these people suck." The proceeding MA session was a blood in the water, bunch of hungry sharks, mob mentality, feeding frenzy of animosity and hostility. Very low class....
post #109 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, are all of you instructors in agreement with the above statement? Doesn't it boil down to all PSIA ski instruction is (more or less) the same?
Generally so. We have the freedom to follow whatever progression we feel would be in the best interests of the student, The ATS offers us some stepping stones as a suggestion for progressions be they parallel or through the wedges.
post #110 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, are all of you instructors in agreement with the above statement? Doesn't it boil down to all PSIA ski instruction is (more or less) the same?
Uh, ... Max,

There are, what, 400+ resorts in the US with each ski school offering a unique product (if you want to get picky about pricing, length of time, instructor training and supervision, facilities, packaging, etc). So the first thing is that technically, there is no PSIA ski instruction available to the general public. Ski school lessons are a resort product, not a PSIA product.

Secondly, there are just under 30,000 PSIA members. I propose that it is statistically impossible to get 30,000 people to do any complex task the same.

With all due respect to medmarkco, the wedge progression CAN be the same (as opposed to WILL be). The PSIA stepping stones methodology allows instructors to custom build progressions from beginning skiing to advanced skiing. For example, I have taken students off the wedge progression and put them into the direct to parallel path. In general, the classes taught by PSIA trained instructors will be based on the same teaching, skiing and guest service principles. But in specific cases, there will always be some uniqeness introduced by resort specific training, programs and policies, the experience and uniqueness of the individual instructor and the needs of the student.

While it may be true that a wedge or a wedge christy should look the same to the beginning skier whether it's done in Aspen or PA, by a rookie or a level 3 cert, the trained eye should be able to distinguish subtle differences in execution between instructors at different skill levels. There can also be major differences in the same instructors demos from day to day depending on snow conditions. For example, we sometimes need to teach our beginners a braking wedge because of (cough) "firm" (cough) "snow" (we never use the "I" word) and the terrain that we have available. On average, a level 3 instructor should be able to perform "better" demonstrations and teach more effective lessons then a level 1 instructor. But in specific examples this will not always be the case. In my exam last year, one examiner asked our group to perform very narrow stance wedge turns and one examiner asked us to perform very wide stance wedges. In both cases, I believe that the same scoring criteria was applied. But this subtle difference in the task assignment was much easier to perform by candidates who fully understood the scoring criteria and the specific challenges that the variations introduced. This is one of the ways that exams use performance to test for for understanding. The increased level of understanding is also one reason why performance generally increases with certification level even if it's a subtle change for the task in question.
post #111 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Max, this is not a put-down or criticism, so please don't take it as such.

Objectively, you don't have sufficient knowlege or experience in the PSIA cert process to critique it. Actually, you have NO experience in the process. You do not understand what a proper wedge christy is, why it is asked for, or what the movement patterns are that are being critiqued in an exam. You don't give the impression that you have any desire to know. You have very limited experience on skis and seemingly very limited knowlege of the history of ski instruction and ski teaching philosophies in general. Because of your total faith in the teachings of one ski guru (and the misrepresentations of PSIA teaching techniques promulgated by that guru, many of which I have listed in prior posts so I won't repeat them here), you seem totally closed minded about the possibility that any other teaching philosophies or techniques can have any value. People have tried in this thread, in extremely courteous fashion, to give you an overview of why PSIA expects its level 3-certified instructors to be able to demonstrate the low-dynamic-level wedge christy. You do not seem open to it because it dosn't match the teaching philosophy you personally believe in.

This thread started in a constructive manner but, as has often been the case in the past few months, is beginning to degenerate because of your relentlessness in pushing your personal opinions. You are a powerful and dogged advocate. You have a sharp mind and are utterly single minded. Praiseworthy in some ways, but perhaps not conducive to genuine open-minded discussion. Max, you have never taken a ski lesson with any of the people whose skills you question and you have no idea of their effectiveness. You are a relatively inexperienced, albeit passionate student of the sport, but a true student in any discipline exposes himself, with an open mind, to alternate philosophies and experiments to test a proposition, even one he feels is likely true. You really do not have the credentials or experience in the sport to be as dogmatic and sure of yourself as you appear.

I heard a definition of a wise man once that may be relevant here: A wise man is someone who realizes how little he really knows. The zealot, the advocate, by definition, has stopped learning and has closed his mind to the possibility of alternatives.

Perhaps you really believe that all you are doing in your many posts is honestly questioning other people's ways of doing things and that you are doing it in a spirit of genuine inquiry and the desire to learn. But honest questioning presupposes the possibility that the questioner is open to alternatives to his own beliefs; to the possibility of another point of view having validity. Are you? Honestly? Every time anyone on this forum suggests you try an alternate to something you have accepted as the only "true way" in ski technique, you refuse. Your answer is invariably, "My way works for me. I'm not going to consider changing it," I would invite you to take a lesson with one of the respected instructors on this site one day with an open mind, or just ski with him/her informally for a day. Try some alternatives to what you have accepted, even for that one day. If you did so with a truly open mind, I'd love to be there.

In reference to this thread's original topic: You are suggesting having positive and supportive MA in a separate section here on Epic. Very constructive. The mention of such helpful and well-meaning MA reminds me of something, however. The vicious way ESA skiers and instructors were trashed on the site whose teachings you espouse permanently taints all the other worthwhile things they have to say in my opinion. There was no excuse for it and the glee with which it was done was reprehensible. I never commented on this before, but it made an impression. An apology is long overdue.
Well said Mike!
post #112 of 135
Max501,

It has probably already been extended to you before, but I would like to personally invite you to come ski with us in Aspen in January with an open mind and an onus on building a friendly skiing relationship. It would be much easier to show you what Epic is about than trying to tell you in type. I would think that someone as passionate as you about this sport would jump at the chance to experience as many points of view as possible.

I know that if HH extended me an invitation to attend one of his camps, I would. In fact I have tryed to register for one but never got a return.

Come and see what you are missing THEN give us your critique and comparisons and preferences.

Because until you do, your comments are just getting old.

We know where you stand, we knew where you stood thousands of posts ago.

note: my opinions are my own and do not neccessarily represent those of the Epicski owners or principles in any way.
post #113 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Well said Mike!
Bud, I hope you took the time to read my response in this post:

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=99

Lonnie, BTW I tried the Wedge Christy turns this summer (had to get someone to show me the right way to do them). Interesting but also felt strange. Why teach such a movement?
post #114 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Lonnie, BTW I tried the Wedge Christy turns this summer (had to get someone to show me the right way to do them). Interesting but also felt strange. Why teach such a movement?
Independent leg steering, independent edging skills and efficient foot to foot (ski to ski) weight transfer.

But to be honest, the wedge Christie isn't taught, it's learned. If folks are making the proper skiing movements, the wedge Christie will happen spontaneously from the wedge, no teaching necessary.
post #115 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Max501,

It has probably already been extended to you before, but I would like to personally invite you to come ski with us in Aspen in January with an open mind and an onus on building a friendly skiing relationship.
Bud, that is a very kind offer. Who knows, I might just show up one of these days. By 'us' up above I assume you mean the ESA coaches as I already have friendly skiing relationships with other Epic members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
It would be much easier to show you what Epic is about than trying to tell you in type.
I'm confused by this statement? Did you mean to show what ESA is about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I know that if HH extended me an invitation to attend one of his camps, I would. In fact I have tryed to register for one but never got a return.
If you are interested I can probably help with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Come and see what you are missing THEN give us your critique and comparisons and preferences.
I'm not sure what you mean? In this thread we already confirmed that all PSIA certs of an equal lvl have (more or less) the same minimum teaching and skiing ability. So, when I ski with lvl II and III certs locally am I not seeing the same thing?
post #116 of 135
Max501,

Sorry, I did mean ESA not Epic.

You're coach is not a level I or II or III level nor should you compare what you receive from him to these level PSIA certs. Come to ESA and ski with some of the best, IMO, PSIA coaches/instructors. And hey maybe you and I can make some turns and I can show you the twist n tip nuance.
post #117 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
You're coach is not a level I or II or III level nor should you compare what you receive from him to these level PSIA certs.
I wasn't talking about HH and his various students. I ski with and see lvl II and III PSIA certs fairly often.

However, you might like to know that plenty of his coaches and students are in fact level II and III certs. At this summer's race camp Mel Brown (PSIA examiner) was coaching.
post #118 of 135
This thread has been an interesting trip over the river and through the woods.

But I'd like to return to the original topic of MA and what can be done to make it less intimidating. Unfortunately, I think the answer is "not much." Look how frightened most people are of public speaking.

Sure, some excesses can (and should be) suppressed. But the reality is that is that being told "x, y, and z" are wrong with your skiing is a hard thing. (And for far too many people, that feels the same as "wong with you.")

I have posted video for MA twice. The first time uncovered some things I was doing wrong (and they were definitely wrong, since I neither knew I was doing them nor intended to be doing them.) The second time was more of a mixed bag -- there were some execllent valid observations, but also some where I wondered if the poster had even watched the same video. There was also an interesting little argument that developed between two instructors -- always a plus.

After all the dust settled, I was amazed how difficult internet video MA is. I'm sure it takes a different skill mix than in-persion video MA, and still different from live in-person MA. (Both because of the analysis process, and because of communicating back to the student.) For the longest time, I simply could not see some of the things people were trying to point out, even though after I saw them they became obvious.

Even though its not quite the same thing that Max was saying, it does sort-of indirectly support his questioning of certs on the internet. I'm sure the certification process does not include evaluation of your ability to communicate on the internet.

Bottom line though -- it was very useful to me. Anyone who isn't afraid of crowds definitely ought to give it a go. And I'd encourage the rest of you to get your courage up and give it a go. It'll only hurt for a moment.
post #119 of 135
getting back to the first post....

After posting video of my friend skiing one of the steeper runs ever posted on here(which BTW) is not that steep. And people calling her a barely intermediate skier just because they are so closed minded to what good skiing is. She has placed top 3 at Telluride and Crested Butte in big mountain freeskiing comps so clearly intermediate. I have found 80 percent of the MAs to be a joke and have stopped replying on the forum to anyone who post video, do reply via PM now and again.

I have also learned that I LOVE to teach, and to those on this board that have actually met me or taken a lesson from me, my eye is way better, and my thought more coherent in real life. So I stopped posting in almost all instructional threads because these things.
post #120 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
getting back to the first post....

After posting video of my friend skiing one of the steeper runs ever posted on here(which BTW) is not that steep. And people calling her a barely intermediate skier just because they are so closed minded to what good skiing is. She has placed top 3 at Telluride and Crested Butte in big mountain freeskiing comps so clearly intermediate. I have found 80 percent of the MAs to be a joke and have stopped replying on the forum to anyone who post video, do reply via PM now and again.
BW,

Remember to separate the difference between technically proficient skiing and strong skiing. There is no doubt that Kristen is a strong skier (I remember the thread, didn't post in it) - technically proficient?... maybe not as proficient as she could be at her skill level.

The point being, that there is a big difference between a strong, hard charging skier and technical proficiency in the same situation. You're an instructor and and avid off-piste skier so there is no doubt that you recognize the difference. When you ask for an MA here, you get an analysis from a technical standpoint instead of "wow, thats some strong skiing." Yeah it's strong skiing, but if you ask if it is technically correct - the answer is probably no. Watch a few free skiing comps and tell me that the skiing you see is 'technically' correct. Just because those competitors default to a movement pattern they know in order to survive the speeds and cliffs they are jumping off does not make it correct from a technical viewpoint, even though it is damn strong skiing.

Later

GREG
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