or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Platforming--New Skill - Page 2

But Paul, I did not suggest equal weight, and weems says "each ski creates one". Hmm.. let's let him sort this out.....
'Platform' was a term actively used in the racing circles back before gray hair -

It continues to apply. Watch World class DH. It's what they do. The winners? Rock solid platforms.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Ok I got it. I also get that as there are two platforms. Each are made "solid" by being pressured with an appropriate amount of weight, which stops the skis from wandering independently. In short, the "platform" is a metaphor for two legged skiing. .
Basically I agree, and you're right in your next post. It is two legged skiing, but not necessarily equal weight.

However, it's a stretch for me to see it simply as a metaphor for two legged skiing. But I get your point.

I mean even if you're mostly on your downhill ski, the inside ski is usually doing something in the snow. I think the skis/legs work better with each other when there is enough weight/pressure on each to make each ski go the direction you want it to go.

So I don't categorically equate two legged skiing with equal weight. I actually think it is quite difficult to create these clean platforms on either fully equal weighted skis or a fully outside weighted ski. I also think the jury is still out about deciding that it's either one mode or the other. I believe there is a lot of variation--and a lot of disagreement.

But that's a bit irrelevant to what I'm searching for.

All I'm saying is that when either ski (or both skis) are in the snow, its/their function is to slice out a wall to stand on/against. This function supercedes the goal of turning, and carving is only a poor metaphor for it.

Because of the edge, shape, and flex of that ski, the wall curves. My goal is to balance against the new surface that I'm creating. My challenge is that I have to master the variations of centrifugal force and gravity dynamics to keep the ski in it's job of creating the curving wall. At certain speeds, my body will be horizontal to gravity. Even at slow speeds, I won't be standing straight up like a tree. I think of this rather than thinking of edging.

Think of what this means for the concept of tipping. Tipping implies the lateral lean of the legs. It just doesn't feel like that to me. Actually, Ron LeMaster's term of "toppling" feels better as you apply it to transitioning from one platform to another.

Language is a strange beast, eh?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by weems All I'm saying is that when either ski (or both skis) are in the snow, its/their function is to slice out a wall to stand on/against. This function supercedes the goal of turning, and carving is only a poor metaphor for it. Because of the edge, shape, and flex of that ski, the wall curves. My goal is to balance against the new surface that I'm creating. My challenge is that I have to master the variations of centrifugal force and gravity dynamics to keep the ski in it's job of creating the curving wall. At certain speeds, my body will be horizontal to gravity. Even at slow speeds, I won't be standing straight up like a tree. I think of this rather than thinking of edging.
I understand completely.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by weems Think of what this means for the concept of tipping. Tipping implies the lateral lean of the legs. It just doesn't feel like that to me. Actually, Ron LeMaster's term of "toppling" feels better as you apply it to transitioning from one platform to another. Language is a strange beast, eh?
Tipping to me implies rolling the skis onto greater and greater edge angles by first using the ankles, then knees and finally hips.

Toppling to me implies either moving your body so that the balance point is no longer over the BOS or moving the BOS so that it is no longer under the body. In short: falling. This is not a case of dynamic balance, it is a case of simply being imbalanced. Dynamic balance is balance while in motion -- ie, balance point over BOS.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Tipping to me implies rolling the skis onto greater and greater edge angles by first using the ankles, then knees and finally hips. Toppling to me implies either moving your body so that the balance point is no longer over the BOS or moving the BOS so that it is no longer under the body. In short: falling. This is not a case of dynamic balance, it is a case of simply being imbalanced. Dynamic balance is balance while in motion -- ie, balance point over BOS.
I get that, and I work on maintaining dynamic balance as best I can during the transition. But one of the reasons that edgechange plays such a prominent part in my book is that there is an inherent challenge to stability at that crossing point. And comfort with the potential chaos of the changeover is a reasonable goal.

You release the stability of the old platform to begin creating another one. The sensation of falling towards the new one is palpable. You can and should mitigate for sure by shifting pressure aggressively from ski to ski and being just as aggressive with the idea of tipping. Ideally you don't lose touch or contact.

But there is still a sense of falling off the mountain side, toppling off the fence, feeling the bicycle or motorcyle fall inwards. This is especially evident on steeps, and for a beginner, almost anywhere. When one gets a sense of this free fall to the rescue of the new platform is part of the game, the instability tends to go away, because one regains consciousness

Joubert called it the critical "dive down the hill". Steve Mahre used to talk about it with the White Pass turn. He said that, in GS, he had a sensation of falling off the mountain side. But he spoke of it with a sense of comfort rather than fear.

Anyway I love the sensation of toppling to the new platform--as short lived as it is. It's the total abandonment of all possibility of the security gained in the previous turn.

By the way, Big E, I really appreciate your thoughts here. Your skill and understanding as a skier really show up powerfully. I get a sense of speaking with a skier that is more skilled than I am--and more analytical. (There are many like that, so I have no trouble saying it authentically.)
In a clinic a couple of years ago Nick Herrin talked about getting both skis on the same plane. I believe it's the same concept as Weems's platform: each edge being at the same angle to the slope and the ski being the plane extending away from that angle. (It's not actually the same plane, but parallel planes, of course.) I like the plane/platform idea very much and find the earlier I get both skis on the same plane, the more able I am to draw nice circles.
Dat Nick! He's a smart guy.

And you're right. It's parallel planes.

But I don't quite understand this phrase: "the ski being the plane extending away from that angle" Can you elaborate on that. Otherwise I'll have to clear your cache.
The ski's the deck that cantilevers away from the slope.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo The ski's the deck that cantilevers away from the slope.
Exactly. Thanks.
If you've got no platform, there's nothing to stand on. On skis, you have to make your own, since the dang hill is always running away of its own accord. So, use them skis to make that platform and stand on it.

I like it, weems.
I thought some more about this in my stand-up thinkin' room this mornin' under some really hot water...

I think the relatively fragile material we're using to create that platform has a big impact on the way we use our tool (the ski(s)) to create a platform we can use to support ourselves. This is a very interesting path to explore. When will it snow?

...might be time to climb...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssh I thought some more about this in my stand-up thinkin' room this mornin' under some really hot water... I think the relatively fragile material we're using to create that platform has a big impact on the way we use our tool (the ski(s)) to create a platform we can use to support ourselves. This is a very interesting path to explore. When will it snow? ...might be time to climb...
This is a real key to understanding the idea of "nurturing" the platform. On hard snow it is razor thin and very delicate. On soft groomed, it is broader, but can also give way to too much penetration. It varies on each turn, and it is an art. The edges are sculpting tools.

When you climb, run across boulders. Then run across a loose scree slope. Same difference.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssh I thought some more about this in my stand-up thinkin' room this mornin' under some really hot water...
You're spending too much time in the shower.
I saw my neighbors' little girl crash going around a turn on her tricycle yesterday. She was flying around the turn-a-round and had too much weight on the inside wheel, and not enough on the outside wheel so her platform at that point was too unstable and she crashed. If she had leaned to the outside a little more during the apex of the turn, she might have been able to hold on, but because she didn't, she lost it.

Is this what you mean Weems? I need a visual connection to get a new concept.
Can someone change the title to "Platform management -- new focus"?

Gimme a few more posts, I'll twist it into "Base of Support management".
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Can someone change the title to "Platform management -- new focus"? Gimme a few more posts, I'll twist it into "Base of Support management".
Yeah, the concept of the platform and its management click with me too, it's an easy visual to grasp. But it seems more like a new way to think about what we've been doing..... or trying to do... forever. If there's a new skill involved, I guess I'm missing that part of it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo The ski's the deck that cantilevers away from the slope.
My platform is not the whole deck, just the part that touches the snow or ice. Hence what used to be talked about as an edge, is where the forces meet the snow. That old edge is the platform when your skiing on ice. For me the rest of the ski disappears from consideration when skiing ice or hardpack, I only think of the surface touching the snow and ice and how to manage it and the forces on it. I follow the path of the force.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Snowmiser I saw my neighbors' little girl crash going around a turn on her tricycle yesterday. She was flying around the turn-a-round and had too much weight on the inside wheel, and not enough on the outside wheel so her platform at that point was too unstable and she crashed. If she had leaned to the outside a little more during the apex of the turn, she might have been able to hold on, but because she didn't, she lost it. Is this what you mean Weems? I need a visual connection to get a new concept.
Yeah, that works. It's a harder concept though on wheels because you don't penetrate the surface. Instead you load (and widen) the contact patch--where the wheel touches the surface). Close to the same principle though. Put dat gurl in a brain bucket! And send her on the Tour.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Can someone change the title to "Platform management -- new focus"? Gimme a few more posts, I'll twist it into "Base of Support management".
I would buy that change entirely. That's much better said.

And I know you will!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bumpfreaq Yeah, the concept of the platform and its management click with me too, it's an easy visual to grasp. But it seems more like a new way to think about what we've been doing..... or trying to do... forever. If there's a new skill involved, I guess I'm missing that part of it.
You're correct on all counts. It's a difficult focus to bring to the front, because the vocabulary isn't settled. It just describes, for me, more accurately what I think I'm doing or trying to do.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost My platform is not the whole deck, just the part that touches the snow or ice. Hence what used to be talked about as an edge, is where the forces meet the snow. That old edge is the platform when your skiing on ice. For me the rest of the ski disappears from consideration when skiing ice or hardpack, I only think of the surface touching the snow and ice and how to manage it and the forces on it. I follow the path of the force.
I get that.

For me, though, I'm looking at three parts and these are how I'm referring to them:
The platform is the surface of snow/ice/etc. that I'm creating as I go.
The ski sole is the bottom of the ski, including the edge, that interacts with the platform.
The deck is the top of the ski where my boot is connected.

There are a lot of forces working in the rest of the ski that make it hard for the rest of the ski to disappear. But the focal shortcut you're talking about works great in practice.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by weems The platform is the surface of snow/ice/etc. that I'm creating as I go. The ski sole is the bottom of the ski, including the edge, that interacts with the platform. The deck is the top of the ski where my boot is connected.
Goin down this road, I think there is a bit of vocabulary missing. And clearly I was not getting the original description... In addition to the "platform" (as described above) that is cut in the snow - or in soft snow the base the snow itself forms - there is a "virtual" platform that someone feels like they are standing on. It is the sum of all the forces brought into play on the skis. At least when the skis are managed to build that "platform". When I think of building a platform, I think of that thing that has the property of a platform I can stand on. Under lots of conditions, that "road" you cut with the ski is just a thing to hang the "platform" (or whatever you want to call it) on. Viewing the "road" as the platform does not incorprate the notion of skidded or pivoted turns well. Whereas framing a notion of "platform" that really is "the thing you stand on" allows you to discuss sliding/skidding or spinning the platform (or whatever you are going to call it) itself...

I'm not sure it matters what one calls it, but I think there needs to be an explicit concept for the kinesthetic thing you are building to perch on the road. I think it is related to the "deck" but is a more dynamic thing. I don't think that "road" is or "platform" described above is the thing itself. Am I making any sense?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spindrift Goin down this road, I think there is a bit of vocabulary missing. And clearly I was not getting the original description... In addition to the "platform" (as described above) that is cut in the snow - or in soft snow the base the snow itself forms - there is a "virtual" platform that someone feels like they are standing on. It is the sum of all the forces brought into play on the skis. At least when the skis are managed to build that "platform". When I think of building a platform, I think of that thing that has the property of a platform I can stand on. Under lots of conditions, that "road" you cut with the ski is just a thing to hang the "platform" (or whatever you want to call it) on. Viewing the "road" as the platform does not incorprate the notion of skidded or pivoted turns well. Whereas framing a notion of "platform" that really is "the thing you stand on" allows you to discuss sliding/skidding or spinning the platform (or whatever you are going to call it) itself... I'm not sure it matters what one calls it, but I think there needs to be an explicit concept for the kinesthetic thing you are building to perch on the road. I think it is related to the "deck" but is a more dynamic thing. I don't think that "road" is or "platform" described above is the thing itself. Am I making any sense?
Yes, you are making sense, and a better word would suit me fine. I have used the word sense of a "broken" or chaotic platform to describe that piece of snow surface that has been created by skidding, etc. It's still the overall real estate the ski is moving on, and it is still not at the pitch of the slope. So for me, the word platform works both ways. And it is the thing/surface/road/fluid plane that the ski is being supported by.

However, if there's a better word, I'd use it.

I ran into the same problem developing the Sports Diamondtm. Lots of people don't like the word Power for that which denotes technique AND biomechanics AND equipment (both gear and body). I'd be happy with a new word there as well, but I haven't found a better umbrella than Power. In essence these are the pieces that provide the motor.

Anyway, your description is great. And you can clearly see the issue: that we're not skiing on the ski slope. We're skiing on something else.

Big E's platform management is pretty good.

But yeah, help me out here, if you can think of something.
Well, you know spindrift, if the platform is the "road" that is cut into the snow, or the "wall" that is the mogul we've slipped up and down, then, it's not the platform we can manage at all....

However, as you say, we can orient our "base of support" to cut a "road" into the snow, or balance on top of it as it slides up and down the walls in a mogul field.

Gee, weems I thought it would take longer than that!

Honestly, I don't think it matters all that much what you choose to call it, as long as the focus moves to a "platform" that is the ski/snow interface, and how to move with the "platform" that you choose to create.
Good Day Weems,
Greg here from Timberline and Snowmass. After reading about the platform and your experiences with it, I had the opportunity to introduce it to my winter client on the summer snow this last weekend. It is really not that hard to get someone out of the New Jersey heat and humidity and onto the snow in August

Anyway, here is our experience with introducing the concept. Luckily we had a nice freeze overnight and the snow was firm and noisy early on, then we had snow- cone-like summer corn. This skier is 16 and a level 8 skier, gold in NASTAR...by introducing the ski-snow interaction and interface as a platform that is created by slicing the snow with the ski we had a nice time modulating the forces in order to maintain our platform in the firm snow. I was personally suprised how delicate and light I could be to maintain the platform under both skis in the firm snow. It was liberating for sure.

The break through came when at noon the camps pull the courses and vacate their Lanes, leaving us public riders to poach the well maintained snow. It just happened the Tichy's camp was running slalom and had set a very round rythmical warm up section that left the ultimate arcing ruts for us to SEE. This ability to see a burm in the snow that you could then ride on and stand on and balance on was so perfect.

So don't be afraid to make some platforms and walk back up and look with your eyes to see the concept and enhance the ability to see the platform that we are creating with the ski in your minds eye. She had a hard time envisioning it even with all the canyon skiing and half pipe session that we did the day before.

Thanks for the inspiration and direction.

Greg Luce
Oh ya,
current tuning plays a role in platform management when the surface is firm
Greg
Quote:
Thanks, Greg. Ruts on a race course are the best example of all.

Thanks for the clarification Weems! By George, I think I've got it!!!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Snowmiser Thanks for the clarification Weems! By George, I think I've got it!!!
I think he's got it!

By the way, this isn't something new. What is new, for many, is the primacy of this focus as an umbrella purpose for all those moves built around balance and edging. It's my version of the "why".
I'm currently studying for my Level III exam Weems, so anything that I can read that helps me understand the WHO, WHAT, WHERE WHEN & HOW is a great help to me at this point. Thanks for the wealth of information that you provide on this forum!

Sincerely,

~Anne~

(By George I think she's got it! ).
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching