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Walking the Talk - Page 5

post #121 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post


Short of having an excellent coach skiing with you I'd say video is the best tool available, especially if you are willing to post it for feedback.
Every able bodied person has their own internal coach. It's the same coach that teaches you how to walk. Pay attention to the feedback from that coach and you won't need any other.
post #122 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post
Every able bodied person has their own internal coach. It's the same coach that teaches you how to walk. Pay attention to the feedback from that coach and you won't need any other.
Trial and Error alone might get you where you want to go, but it's the slow route.
post #123 of 138
IMHO, you can get to a very high level without video, but there is no question that using video as a tool will improve your skiing, particularly if you have natural ability. Deer are great at running through the woods, despite never having studied video of themselves, Falcons are great flyers. The question is is it worth it to you to get that extra bit. Is it the difference between Olympic Gold and Olympic competitor; do those extra FIS points matter that much to you; or is it just the difference between I had a good day skiing and I had a good day skiing a bit better? For a lot of folks it's not even worth taking lessons, let alone video lessons. The answer for most folks is somewhere in the middle.
post #124 of 138
While this topic has grow into "the effectiveness of video" the original question has a very simple answer.

Does the person's "talk" match their "walk?" YES / NO

What is the ONLY way to answer this question? See them walk, listen to the talk, and compare the two.

When a coach evaluates your skiing he watches your skiing and gives you feedback based on what he sees. When you watch video of your skiing, you take the place of the coach and give feedback based on what you see. A coach doesn't stare at the snow (ignore you coming down the hill) when evaluating your skiing and then ask you what your turns looked like and deliver his advice based on what you felt/think you did - the advice is based on what actually happened - what he saw. Video is a useful tool because it allows you (the skier) to match what you were feeling in the turns you made to what was actually happening. The bottom line is that without seeing it, you don't know for sure - you can speculate and be fairly accurate, but you do not know for sure what you look like when skiing, and if your actual movments are actually aligned with what you felt. The same applies here - we can speculate based on what you say but there is no way of knowing for sure without seeing a person's skiing.

Later

GREG
post #125 of 138
Those questioning the "perception isn't reality" in skiing need only to look at some of the videos posted here of "top instructors". Many of these SHOW what just about everyone here would consider inefficient technique. Hopefully they didn't THINK that they were stemming, backseating and upper body rotating, etc.
post #126 of 138
Heluva's right. But this thread morphed into the discussion of whether people here should be taken for their word, at face value, that they are good skiers and that they know what they are talking about.

Some level of mistrust has been cast upon the whole principal by people who are saying that they won't pay any attention or believe you unless they can see you ski, and that your skiing prowress will determine whether you are talking through your a$$ or not.

The whole point of these forums require a certain level of trust. If you don't trust the people who participate why participate in the discussion.
post #127 of 138
Lars, you raise a good point; that those who do not trust someone's advice without seeing their skiing first should think about before charging into battle. There are of course, people who's observations about skiing are so spot-on that seeing them ski is not necessary simply based on the insight they have about skiing (a few immediately come to mind).

Although... Even I have experienced a certain amount of skepticism regarding my skiing until it was actually seen, as expected when publicly using the name HeluvaSkier (whether in person or via video, although in person seems to deliver more of an impact). Most, like me are not interested in "proving" anything, so advice is put up with a "take it or leave it" attitude. At times it would be nice to counter someone's banter with a "put up or shut up" attitude, but in reality it gets us no where and only causes tension where you could have simply skipped over their post and avoided escalation of the disagreement.

Later

GREG
post #128 of 138

Walk - Talk

It took 5 pages but definitely the TALK Winner is Max. For the walk we have to wait for Highway Star and Max 501 to run a dual GS - on video or in person to properly evaluate the BS of actual skiing.
post #129 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
It took 5 pages but definitely the TALK Winner is Max. For the walk we have to wait for Highway Star and Max 501 to run a dual GS - on video or in person to properly evaluate the BS of actual skiing.
???:
post #130 of 138
Offcourse video MA is useful. That said, offourse you can become a state of the art expert skier without ever seeing yourself on video. Deer and falcons come to mind. No, you dont automatically become a better skier just because you post your skiing here.

I show the deepest respect for all here at epic that posted their skiing no matter what level. Most of all for the ones that stay humble, ask questions and do not pretend they know it all and never become defensive about it. You dont have to be right all the time. Especially when you post a video. Then you cannot be right about anything.

Note, that a video is worth nearly nothing if you have no reference. The viever can if he is skillful understand the circumstances but most will not. Comments like "you should have kept your weight forwards" fly out to Bode crashing out in 80mph DH and "I see a hint of A-frame" can be passed out to Poutiainen" as she hurries to change edges in a tigh GS turn at the end of a 2min GS run etc. That is not walking the talk, that is maximum BS.
post #131 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
It took 5 pages but definitely the TALK Winner is Max. For the walk we have to wait for Highway Star and Max 501 to run a dual GS - on video or in person to properly evaluate the BS of actual skiing.
I've seen video of Max and Highway. Max wins the video competition imho, but I think Highway might very well win the Chinese Downhill.
post #132 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I've seen video of Max and Highway. Max wins the video competition imho, but I think Highway might very well win the Chinese Downhill.
Dunno about the DH, but Max takes the SL and GS crowns.

HS takes the BS crown.
post #133 of 138
Highway Star wins all of the high speed stuff. No question. I'm not a fast skier.
post #134 of 138
Both max and HS walks the talk.
post #135 of 138

I know you

Quote:
Originally Posted by GR8TRN View Post
For my personal training, I prefer to be coached by someone that impresses me with their skiing. I can also find value in being coached by someone that is not completely impressing me with their skiing.

For most clients that I have encountered that are not at the never-ever level, inspiring by doing and showing is a real part of getting the buy-in for what is to come. How is it possible for a skier to be inspired by words alone? Not that words alone can't be marginally effective, but skiing is a sport of movement. Whether you are the "thinker", "feeler" or "see-er", I find it hard to imagine learning skiing without some visual imput.

Greg
That's easy to say if your an optomitrist.

I like this topic. Being new to this forum I found this to be an ironic subject. I was just thinking that when it comes to credibility and whether a person talk-talking has the walk, anyone who makes any sense on this forum is probably someone I already know. Good point Greg, JJ P.S. I'll be skiing w/Mammy @Mammoth +ibgoin2PSIA-Wtttow@juneinfeb
post #136 of 138

blab, blab, blab

I just want to blab a little more. While walking the walk is critical to talking the talk I must diverge slightly. One can be so dedicated to the walk that they are totaly ineloquent verbaly. Yet excess verbosity exposes inexperience. In order to communicate effectivly on a topic like skiing one needs to posess a widly varied set of skills. Just as successful athletes rarely make it as coaches, successful writers rarely make it as atheletes (just look at Plimpton). To discribe in detail the movements, physics and sensations of dynamic skiing may take years of practice and study. To distill this research and development down into language that normal people can understand is more rare than the athelete who wins world cup races.

Video and video analysis is a slippery slope. At first it's all fun and you feel all warm and fuzzy to see yourself skiing, but it doesn't last. Just a little critical analysis and soon all you ever see from then on are the flaws. I hate video. It has as much potential to do harm as to do good. However I did have a great experience at the PSIA-W Spring Convention Senior Specialist I Accreditation. Our clinicians Tim and Tom did MA on video that was fun and exciting. Tim did play by play as we skied in real time and Tom added color comentary. It was like watching an athletic event on ESPN. Their analysis was spot on, fun to watch and listen to and was always positive. We watched the video straight through for the most part and did very few rewind/ slow motion recaps. The analysis was on the tape and didn't require the extensive disection I had grown used to in other situations. Next time I'm being evaluated for KRA's or at a tryout or training session I'm gonna be thinking about how I could do the MA in a fun, entertaining way that is positive and leaves peoples feelings intact.
post #137 of 138
Thread Starter 
KRAs? You got me stumped, dogonjon.

Good post (the second--the first was a bit cryptic, as you say). Writing well about skiing is not a core requirement for teaching or for sports performance. It's a great skill to have if you want to get your name out there, because, as John Fry, famous ski magazine editor once told me, the ski pros who can write well about ski technique are exceedingly rare.
post #138 of 138
Thanks for your coments nolo, I was goofing with GR8TRN, we go way back. I just wonder if he gets my cryptic message, it's about goals.
KRA= Key Result Areas. At Mammoth they use this to evaluate ski instructors; Fun, learning, safety, guest service and demos. Demos are videoed regularly, analyzed by an independant firm and graded. I feel this is a good program but as with video analysis it is difficult to keep the program positive in spite of the good intentions behind it.
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