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Lifting the old outside ski - Page 3

post #61 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimL View Post
If you mean unwinding the counter that developed through the turn, yes. That helps facilitate the leg steering.
OK, I'm thinking that if you relax and allow the counter to unwind the skis will redirect regardless of the pivot point example above.
post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

Using strong directional movements (inside half being the guide), you should be able to transition into the turn with either ski, but not if the new inside one is lifted. For short dynamic turns, the pressure mangement and timing is pushed to the max, and if the directional movements lag a little, or if pressure mangement is not controled, vola, lift.

RW
Sorry to confuse:

my first bolding: Seems to say that you can't transition to the new turn if the inside ski is lifted. Can't see that saying anything else.

my second bolding: your post says lift is an error. I'm saying lift is part of and pull back, and is a recentering move, that is intentional.

Hope this clears things up.
post #63 of 93
BigE, I understood that the (but not) clause took "either" away.


Spent yesterday on a 6-8% downgrade on skates, normally a 35mph downhill but I practiced starting from a snowplow brake, then transitioning to either foot whilst keeping the same pressure on both skates, your second point is very clearly shown.
post #64 of 93
Thanks, comprex.

Still looks quite odd. Read like that, it means you should be able to transition with either leg at all times. Clearly, that can't be done with one ski lifted -- that is just a corrolary.

But do I have that statement right now? Is the goal to keep both feet on the snow so we can transition with either ski?
post #65 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Is the goal to keep both feet on the snow so we can transition with either ski?
BigE, I think some of this has to do with a difference in thinking with regards to balance vs stability. Two footed skiers strive for stability. Others strive for balance. If you are well balanced (in a dynamic sense) it doesn't matter if one or two feet (or even no feet) are touching the ground.

For example, I've argued (in person) with instructors that insist that both fee should be on the ground all of the time just in case one of the skis slips. Sure, I understand that thinking. But, if my outside ski slips my inside ski takes over even if it happened to be lifted a bit. Now, if you lift it 24" off of the ground that would be another story, but how many advanced skiers do that?
post #66 of 93
Is stability the only reason to use two feet?
post #67 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Is stability the only reason to use two feet?
No. Grip.
post #68 of 93
Weems,

Lonnies point about grip is correct, but lifting the outside ski occurs through transition. Here we are released, and grip is meaningless. On re-engagement, skiing two footed can reduce grip, as pressures are very low.

So, yes, stability is the only reason to ski two footed through transition.

If you are banging out slalom turns in the gates, then agility and speed of transition is paramount. That trumps stability. If you are skiing DH then two footed would be preferred -- it is safer.

Same when teaching joe public two footed transitions are taught due to safety concerns, and a perceived lack of athleticism in the student.

Unfortunately, this thinking percolates down to teaching kids, who are far more athletic that we give them credit. They would certainly be adventurous enough to learn the move. Who does'nt teach 1-footed skiing to kids? We should take advantage of the adventurousness in kids and teach these short carved turns.

One footed skiing is the best balance drill of all! And if skiing is all about balance, then why stress stability? Why not emphasize balance? I mean the students will put both feet down when they feel they have to anyway. By not teaching them that they can effectively ski on one ski, we are limiting their abilities and their options.
post #69 of 93
Assuming that lifting is a progressive and not a reactive movement ,I wonder if preferance (or predjudice) is based on an individuals natural body movements. I've tried keeping both skiis wieghted and in contact but for me, it didn't work as well.I was actually less stable and found it more fatiguing and stressful on my legs, it didn't flow.I can easly see how the opposite could be true for someone else.
post #70 of 93
Quote:
So, yes, stability is the only reason to ski two footed through transition.
I'm not convinced, but maybe this is an issue of time elapsed in the transition. I think I try to do this rollover really fast, and therefore, I don't want to have lost time with one ski in the air. I want both to release, and re-engage very quickly. If the skis are on the snow during the rollover, I feel they re-engage very nicely. As for the grip at that point, I don't need much because I'm going to build pressure progressively.

Quote:
If you are banging out slalom turns in the gates, then agility and speed of transition is paramount. That trumps stability. If you are skiing DH then two footed would be preferred -- it is safer.
I guess I'm looking at speed of transition in all of those turns. In DH, I beleive the skier is more on one ski than on two in the turns, but maybe again, you're just talking about the moment of transition.
Also, I'm not convinced that it's slower to change on two skis than on one.

Quote:
Same when teaching joe public two footed transitions are taught due to safety concerns, and a perceived lack of athleticism in the student.
For me, it's to get the new engagement going quicker for them so they have a new set of edges and tips to trust going in.

Quote:
By not teaching them that they can effectively ski on one ski, we are limiting their abilities and their options
.

True, but also kids can learn to do cool things with two skis.
post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
For me, it's to get the new engagement going quicker for them so they have a new set of edges and tips to trust going in.
How would a two footed release result in engagement quicker than a one footed release?
post #72 of 93
Because two edges are better than one for a positive engagement. The edges change together and there is no lag in response . One foot then the other follows or two feet and done. Wouldn't it be the difference between a two part move and a one part move ?


Is the tipping action of an unweighted or lifted ski more significant to changing direction than acquiring both edges ?
post #73 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Also, I'm not convinced that it's slower to change on two skis than on one.
It isn't if you are using the same mechanics, and simply hold a ski in the air. The lift is just one part of a complete set of movements working with a functional tension.
post #74 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Because two edges are better than one for a positive engagement. The edges change together and there is no lag in response . One foot then the other follows or two feet and done. Wouldn't it be the difference between a two part move and a one part move ?
What do you mean by response? Turning effect? One is clearly superior -- the ski has twice the pressure and is decambered more.

There was an article by Greg Gurshman that cleared this whole thing up that was removed from being posted. I should have grabbed a copy.

It dealt with optimal edging and track analysis. He wrote that the two footed version of carving learned by RR tracks had to be "trained out" of athletes or they remained slow. The pressure distibution was 100% on the uphill ski, with the inside ski progressively receiving pressure and finally being pressure dominant at turn completion. The drill was to lift the outside ski and keep it in the air until the fall-line, where it is then put down as the new inside ski. You then lift and start pressuring further and further before the fall-line, but not so far you revert to RR tracks.
post #75 of 93
`I see your point. The bending of the ski is the most significant thing happening to shape a turn in a carve . Two feet won't bend a ski like skiing on one would

I was thinking down your path and altered my post before you wrote yours . I guess I should have invoked the pause before posting rule.
post #76 of 93
Would someone please explain:

I understand lifting and pulling back to recenter.
I understand the quick and absolute weight transfer this creates.
I understand these to be preasure control movements not edging movements.
I even under stand how these movements may create quick tipping.

However, I don't understand how at transition this creates the quickest way to bend a ski for a short radius turn.

At transition my skis are very close to flat on the snow and I can bend the camber out of my ski very easily. In order to bend my ski more I must either push the midddle of my ski into the snow while the tip and tail remain on the surface or tip my ski on edge. It has been stated that there is no rush to get to an edge, so why the rush for weight transfer?
post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How would a two footed release result in engagement quicker than a one footed release?
Because the lifted inside foot has farther to travel to get to it's edge. My presumption is that I want both skis working from the start.

Big E believes the one footed engagement is superior because you can load it more aggressively.

But I think you don't want to load it aggressively at the start.

My sources on this are the following:

Casey Puckett told me a few years back, when he was coaching the kids in Aspen, that all of the kids were stomping on the ski too hard at the outset, which prevented them from having the progressive building of pressure necessary to have highest edge angle and pressure in the fall line.

Claudia Riegler told me years ago that she was kicked off the Austrian team because she felt that in slalom, two skis were faster, and they wouldn't buy it. At that time she said few women were on two, and later many switched.

Squatty told me last year that when he was in New Zealand the Austrian coaches were trying to get their guys on two skis but only a few could do it consistently. The reason was so that the inside ski was riding on more or less the same track and not bouncing around.

Now, I know that this is all hearsay, and second and third hand. So I don't claim to have THE answer here. But it does point out to me that there is some legitimate controversy on this issue at higher levels, and the jury is not in yet.

In my history in this sport, I've seen this thing go round and round and round and round over many years.

In the dvd I'm doing on the diamond, I'm going to actually present both points of view as legitimate areas of exploration.

The final point for me is that in these either/or arguments on technique, the answer is usually or at least often both/and depending on many variables and circumstances.
post #78 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Because the lifted inside foot has farther to travel to get to it's edge. My presumption is that I want both skis working from the start.
The mistake I often see isn't the weight transfer causing problems but the rush to the new edges (BTE dominant skiing). I don't understand the two skis working from the start concept. What does two do (in the top half of the turn) that one doesn't do?
post #79 of 93
Quote:
What does two do (in the top half of the turn) that one doesn't do?
What is the role of the inside ski?

RW
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
What is the role of the inside ski?
It leads the rest of the body into the new turn. It should be active. Flex, tip, pullback.
post #81 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The mistake I often see isn't the weight transfer causing problems but the rush to the new edges (BTE dominant skiing). I don't understand the two skis working from the start concept. What does two do (in the top half of the turn) that one doesn't do?
See your post #80.
post #82 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
See your post #80.
All of that is quite easy to do with a ski that is in the air.
post #83 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
All of that is quite easy to do with a ski that is in the air.
Good point.

Except you can't start bending the inside ski when it's in the air, and you can't start working the snow with its edge when it is in the air.

I like it in the snow. I think it's quicker to roll it over without taking it up first. I also like the feel of the instant engagement of both lines (platforms) out of both edges. It's the same awareness I have when I dive across to the new turn, rather than going up before going across. The feeling of continuity is more satisfying, and I think in many cases it is faster (again because everything moves toward the turn rather than away from it).
post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Because the lifted inside foot has farther to travel to get to it's edge. My presumption is that I want both skis working from the start.

Big E believes the one footed engagement is superior because you can load it more aggressively.
Partly. One footed transition is also faster because your center of mass does not have to move so far to get off the base of support -- "toppling" requires less movement of the CM and will have a more immediate effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
But I think you don't want to load it aggressively at the start.

My sources on this are the following:

Casey Puckett told me a few years back, when he was coaching the kids in Aspen, that all of the kids were stomping on the ski too hard at the outset, which prevented them from having the progressive building of pressure necessary to have highest edge angle and pressure in the fall line.
You usually do not want to load it so much that you can confuse it with "stomping". Stomping also implies a "push" which says to me that inclination is driving edge engagement. The biggest angles will be out of reach if you begin a turn by stomping and inclining. This will weaken your platform. That is not what I am advocating. I am advocating having some patience as the ski hooks up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Claudia Riegler told me years ago that she was kicked off the Austrian team because she felt that in slalom, two skis were faster, and they wouldn't buy it. At that time she said few women were on two, and later many switched.
Sorry, weems, I just find it too hard to believe: the Austrians don't have a stop watch? It's easy enough to measure the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
Squatty told me last year that when he was in New Zealand the Austrian coaches were trying to get their guys on two skis but only a few could do it consistently. The reason was so that the inside ski was riding on more or less the same track and not bouncing around.
I'm talking only about transition, not so far into the turn that the skis are bouncing along different tracks. Certainly that would be slow, IMO, you do want to exit a turn with skis at equal angles -- not to be dragging the inside ski around with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weems
The final point for me is that in these either/or arguments on technique, the answer is usually or at least often both/and depending on many variables and circumstances.
The point of the lift etc, is simply speed of transition and nothing else.

If you do not require a speedy transition, then by all means don't do it! If you do need a turn that starts carving very quickly, the lift etc, can help you acheive it.
post #85 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Except you can't start bending the inside ski when it's in the air, and you can't start working the snow with its edge when it is in the air.
We are talking about the top of the arc. Not much bending going on.
post #86 of 93
JRN: If you don't already know about "early weight shift" here is a reasonable thread.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19753

The context of the lift/tip/pull movement is to accelerate the movement of the CM to the inside of an Early Weight Shift turn. It is not a move used when the energy from the previous turn has been lost.
post #87 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It is not a move used when the energy from the previous turn has been lost.
Lose the energy, lose the turn.
post #88 of 93
BigE, thank for the thread link I'll check it out.
post #89 of 93
Nice post #84. I don't have issues with it. I still try to keep that inside foot in the snow. I like the early interaction.

On the issue with Claudia, she was adamant. Sure they can measure, but they were telling her that if she step back and learned the other way (one ski), she would be faster. She followed her intuition and stuck to her guns, by switching to the New Zealand team. I think two years later she was second overall in slalom on WC. She also told me that when she started on two skis that only two or three other women were doing it. After a few years, she reckoned that at least half were.

But again, the intricacies of transition are the real subject here, and I really do see both things happening.

For me, when I lift the new inside foot, it IS because I have to be very quick (so you're right on that), but that's usually because I'm very late!
post #90 of 93
I understand a much lightened or lifted inside ski will be a much quicker movement into a turn but it seems to me a two footed move would be much more stable for lower level parallel skiers to use. Weems suggests a good platform and this would be a much more balanced platform than a one footed one.
For more experienced skiers the light foot tip the little toe move is a good one but before they can get to that shouldn't they be leading with the little toe edge of the inside ski ,tipping that ski and the outside ski nearly in tandem or in tandem and them moving their mass into the turn ? Isn't stability with a good platform better for them to gain confidence ?
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