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Slicing a tight arc - Page 14

post #391 of 411
When I met Ron at the coach's acadamy he was introduced as a technical consultant. He wore a USST uniform on the hill the same as the other USST coaches that were there. He also talked of traveling in Europe with the team.
I don't know about "paid", it wasn't mentioned.
post #392 of 411
When I posted above I hadn't skimmed through this thread (I skipped a bunch of pages)
Skidude72
You are the first ski instructor I've met that has verbalized the idea of the mass moving away from the feet at the top of the turn. Back in 84 I was drawing some "circles and arrows" of the paths of the CM and the skis(feet) and came to this realization. It has significantly effected my teaching since.
The first time I met Harald I had a private conversation with him where he, like a mentor of mine years ago, told me "you tell them what you want them to feel, not necessarily exactly what happens". Up until that point I had heard all these dogmatic things about Harald, that exchange made me realize where he is coming from. Pretty much where a lot of other good coaches are. In another conversation we discussed the appearant "pivoting Georgio Rocca used at times in the top of his turns. He asked if I thought it was "intent or result". The idea is that usually there is no intent but necessity causes the result. In other words, if there is intent the result will be too much so don't tell the athlete to pivot and the resultant pivot to make the turn will come out right. It's the old Inner Tennis idea that the body knows what to do if you keep the mind out of the way. Or, the mind provides the task/intent, the body provides the result.
The first thing that I thought of when I looked at the video is that those (while they ar very good) are not the best turns I've seen Harald make. Usually he is much smoother and doesn't get in the back seat like that. He generally doesn't lift the inside ski as much as in the first one either.
I've noticed that Harald's "style" (the most distinctive thing I noticed that would let me pick him out on a crowded slope) is to drop his right hand down with his elbow up as he transitions to his left turns. I've mentioned it and he says he knows about it and works on it. I noticed in his Essentials book his "sample turn" starts after that point and transitions into a right turn. I'd guess he considers that his best turn. This sequence is the opposite of his "sample turn".
post #393 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ View Post
The first time I met Harald I had a private conversation with him where he, like a mentor of mine years ago, told me "you tell them what you want them to feel, not necessarily exactly what happens". Up until that point I had heard all these dogmatic things about Harald, that exchange made me realize where he is coming from. Pretty much where a lot of other good coaches are. In another conversation we discussed the appearant "pivoting Georgio Rocca used at times in the top of his turns. He asked if I thought it was "intent or result". The idea is that usually there is no intent but necessity causes the result. In other words, if there is intent the result will be too much so don't tell the athlete to pivot and the resultant pivot to make the turn will come out right.
Now that is interesting... and something I have suspected for a long time. Perhaps this belongs in it's own discussion? It is certainly an interesting facet of coaching that (especially around here) is often overlooked.

Later

GREG
post #394 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ View Post
The first time I met Harald I had a private conversation with him where he, like a mentor of mine years ago, told me "you tell them what you want them to feel, not necessarily exactly what happens". Up until that point I had heard all these dogmatic things about Harald, that exchange made me realize where he is coming from. Pretty much where a lot of other good coaches are. In another conversation we discussed the appearant "pivoting Georgio Rocca used at times in the top of his turns. He asked if I thought it was "intent or result". The idea is that usually there is no intent but necessity causes the result. In other words, if there is intent the result will be too much so don't tell the athlete to pivot and the resultant pivot to make the turn will come out right. It's the old Inner Tennis idea that the body knows what to do if you keep the mind out of the way. Or, the mind provides the task/intent, the body provides the result.
That's interesting, because all you ever hear from the HH followers is endless discussion about every minor difference in movement of every possible body part. The best coaches I've had never talked much about body parts or specific movements (they never talked much at all as a matter of fact). The statement "don't tell the athlete to pivot and the resultant pivot to make the turn will come out right" is something coaches all know. They never do what we tell them to do, but sometimes we can stop them from overdoing stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ View Post
The first thing that I thought of when I looked at the video is that those (while they ar very good) are not the best turns I've seen Harald make. Usually he is much smoother and doesn't get in the back seat like that. He generally doesn't lift the inside ski as much as in the first one either.
This is what HH said at Realskiers on July 24:
The lift in the video, frankly I was surprised to see it happen, I could have sworn that I didn't lift in this sequence. I think it happens definitely without thinking, most likely from the quick flexing release of the loaded stance leg, and the energy from the ski. I didn't lift on purpose.

This is what I wrote on July 23 (in this thread above):
When you see someone skiing with a lot of energy and their skis are popping off the snow, I think it's more often the stored energy in the ski taking it off the snow than it is the skier actually picking it up.

There's nothing wrong with skiing with so much energy that you lose a little control. Only ski instructors are interested in perfect control, and even then they should only focus on perfect control when they are doing demos. WC guys are on the edge of control all the time. That's just faster than your perfect "pure carved turn."

BK
post #395 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Alot of guessing about what moves the man in red is making.

What would be more interesting is to hear how some of the experts would make this same turn. Exactly what movements would you use?
Well Max,

Aside from giving you a 500 page post describing the movements of every single muscle in the body during every 30th of a second throughout the turn, I'd make this same turn using exactly the same movements the skier did so that he could see what he was doing. I would not want to copy his movements FOR THIS TURN to make them the default for my short radius turns.
post #396 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
It would seem that there must be some guessing when we do an MA from video. We weren't the ones making the turn (and in many cases we are unable to make the turn ourselves). We don't know the skier's intent, skiing abilities, alignment issues, equipment setup, physical abilities, snow conditions, etc. There are many muscles firing that cannot be seen, yet they effect the outcome of the turn.
You may have to guess when you do MA, but whether muscles can be seen or not, outcomes can be seen. We may choose to disagree about what we see, but that's not a result of guessing.
post #397 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Does anyone know of any online video of the CSIA demo team skiers?
Max,

Look at the level 4 clips on this page. My guess is that these are demo team members performing. They have a bit too much up move for my taste, but I prefer the pressure management in these turns to the one in this thread.
post #398 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Well Max,

I would not want to copy his movements FOR THIS TURN to make them the default for my short radius turns.
Come on Rusty now your veering off into BPA, Lonnie, Fdog territory.
post #399 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I don't understand. The skis are up on edge very early in the high C part of the turn. I do not see the skis pivoting at any point from start to finish.
FWIW Max,

I don't see a pivot on turn entry either. Of course, technically, a carved turn is a pivot. That is, a pivot with the pivot point in the middle of the ski (a point made earlier). Typically, however, when we refer to pivoting in skiing, we are talking about where the pivot point is towards the ski tip (i.e. the tails move more than the tips). When a racer does a pivot entry turn, it does not matter how they did it. If the tails turn more than the tips (on an unbent ski), it's a pivot.
post #400 of 411

Pull back the inside foot

Max,

Where exactly do you see the skier pulling back their inside foot?
post #401 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Where exactly do you see the skier pulling back their inside foot?
Pullback starts at the top of the turn.
post #402 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Look at the level 4 clips on this page. My guess is that these are demo team members performing. They have a bit too much up move for my taste, but I prefer the pressure management in these turns to the one in this thread.
Thanks for finding that link. Do you think they look like this skier?
post #403 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Pullback starts at the top of the turn.
Where does it finish?
post #404 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Where does it finish?
Its held back throughout the turn.
post #405 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Thanks for finding that link. Do you think they look like this skier?
It's kind of hard to answer this question Max. They are skiers. They are making carved as opposed to skidded turns. I've already mentioned two important differences that I see. It does not seem relevant to list any more.
post #406 of 411
Originally Posted by Max_501
Thanks for finding that link. Do you think they look like this skier?

Skier's turn is a subtle recovery movement done by a high level skier.




Different Skier same deal.
IMO this is a better turn as an example. Notice inside arm and ski tip direction.
post #407 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Skier's turn is a subtle recovery movement done by a high level skier.
Recovery from what?
post #408 of 411
Substance abuse.
post #409 of 411
From imbalance to the inside,yes.
post #410 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ View Post
You are the first ski instructor I've met that has verbalized the idea of the mass moving away from the feet at the top of the turn. Back in 84 I was drawing some "circles and arrows" of the paths of the CM and the skis(feet) and came to this realization.
Quick note......The CM can move away from the feet assuming the ski is holding and thereby providing a platform from which to extend from. The body will take a shorter line than the skis until transition in this instance.

If the ski is skidding it's the feet that move away from the CM, and there is a good chance that the CM and the skis will both be headed the same general direction.
post #411 of 411
What Skidude72 and I are reffering to is the different paths that the CM and the skis take. The CM crosses the skis as the skis move in a direction more across the hill. The vector arrows of their direction of travel divirge.
Platform and extension aren't involved. It's just Newton's law "A body in motion remains in motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force". As that applies here, the feet and the CM are moving in different directions. They converge until crossing, then divirge. At the fall line the arrows are parallel.
Nothing fancy, just basics.
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