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Slicing a tight arc - Page 2

post #31 of 411
Pole Plants:!
We don't need no schtinking pole plants:.

The difference between the following skier and the red-jacketed skier besides that everybody knows having a red ski jacket naturally makes you a better skier:, is that the one in front is flexing better with the new inside old outside half. The ski is jumping into the air unhindered. Max is still showing some resistance on that side of his body when he should be letting go.
post #32 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
The point is that Max has been claiming you only make one kind of turn and there is no need to make adjustments, In fact, Max stated that adjustments to technique may be dangerous.
No, that's not what I said. Go back and see that I said there are two basic turns types that I use. One is for carving and the other is my all mountain turn. In addition, I have specifically stated that adjustments are used as needed. Where I have disagreed is that you keep stating that you need a large toolbox of skills to call upon. This just isn't the case for my skiing, I like to keep it simple. The same basic movement pattern.
post #33 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Max is still showing some resistance on that side of his body when he should be letting go.
Yeah, I really am stiff there. Yuk!
post #34 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Has anyone suggested that your poles may be too long for you?
Mike,

Nice observation. Max has a good reply about reaching more down the hill instead of in front. I agree that that movement would be more effective for Max. Both skiers make their poles look longer with their crouched stance at the time of pole touch. The skier in front appears to have His Hands lower to the ground at pole touch than Max does, although the first pole touch should be ignored because it is mostly an afterthought with the basket touching the snow behind the feet. Mogul skiers go with shorter than normal poles because of their stance height relative to the snow surface. Should Max go with lower poles or change his technique? Would lower poles automatically and positively change his technique? Those are the 64K$ questions. Adjustible poles are a good way to find the answers.
post #35 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Ahh the trusty sidekick arrives! The point is that Max has been claiming you only make one kind of turn and there is no need to make adjustments, In fact, Max stated that adjustments to technique may be dangerous. Following Max's logic, A clump of snow should not have caused any change to the ski technique (leaving a ski on the snow or lifting is a variation) or "rules", My point is that all kinds of skiing require adjustments and varied "tools" to ski well. A good skier can make adjustments just like in that video; and he is a good skier.

As far as lifting goes, I think "lifting is learning, lightning is expert" about sums it up. These are not my words...
That is literally ridiculous.

You do not make one type of turn. I am saying that the *resulting movement patterns* you may use vary with the terrain and condition, but the *root movement patterns* in all your varied movements are the same. They are simply tied together with differing durations, intensities, rates and timings (DIRT). You seem to think that Max is claiming one DIRT fits all.

No one is silly enough to suggest that a carbon copy turn with identical DIRT is made on every terrain and on every condition.

I am here to ask you what "varied skills" are needed making adjustments? Or can changing the DIRT of a stock set of movements do enough? Are we really on the same page and just using different words?
post #36 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
They are simply tied together with differing durations, intensities, rates and timings (DIRT).
I was trying to remember what the moniker was!
post #37 of 411
Come out to Steamboat.......
post #38 of 411
Max,

Could you post something longer than 2 seconds worth of turns? That's really all we're seeing in this clip, and it's not even 1 complete turn. I just think it would be more informative....
post #39 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
It may be a way to ski on the World Cup, but who around here skis on the World Cup (and anymore, for Martin)?
So what is your point, that WC skiers are not good technique examples? That race technique is "not a way to ski"?

I have skied on world cup courses and have found that the techniques which work best on them work well in other courses as well as open slopes in Montana .
post #40 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
...and it's not even 1 complete turn.
Its a bit more than one complete turn.
post #41 of 411
I'm happy to see that we are now allowing video of Harald Harb skiing and that no one is picking it apart.

So who's the guy in the red jacket behind and why just post 3 seconds of video?

Can't get much from that.
post #42 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Come out to Steamboat.......
I won't be able to make it but I'm looking forward to seeing more of your video. If you ever make it out to Mt Bachelor or Mt Hood let me know.
post #43 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
So who's the guy in the red jacket behind and why just post 3 seconds of video?
Lars, the guy in the back is me. There's already plenty of my skiing posted, no point going down that road again.

I initially set out to create a montage of this turn but I decided video would be better. The 3 seconds is to keep us focused on this one particular turn. I probably should have clipped even a bit more off of the sequence.
post #44 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Its a bit more than one complete turn.
Edit: Your right, a bit more than 1 but, below still applies...

But anyway, that doesn't matter. I'm just saying that seeing more than what was posted might help clear up if some of the movements identified above were a consistent pattern in the skiing or a simple 1 turn miscue, which seems to be the point of contention so far in this thread....
post #45 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
It's not 1 turn from initiation to completion. It's the last 1/3 of one turn and 3/4's of another.
What are you looking at as the finish? I'm asking because I not only see a finish but the start of the next turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
But anyway, that doesn't matter. I'm just saying that seeing more than what was posted might help clear up if some of the movements identified above were a consistent pattern in the skiing or a simple 1 turn miscue, which seems to be the point of contention so far in this thread....
Ah...but my intent is not to analyze the skier. Its to analyze this particular turn!
post #46 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Ah...but my intent is not to analyze the skier. Its to analyze this particular turn!
Um, how do you analyze the turn and not the skier? Isn't the skier making the turn, so ergo, by analyzing the turn aren't you, as a result, analysing the skier? That is, of course, unless the skis are turning the skier.......

OK, as others have said, the lead skier has a lift of the old outside ski to initiate the turn in question, which is a less than perfect position of balance.

The trailing skier doesn't have the tipping skills the other skier has and is pushing their skis at the end of the turn to match the arc of the lead skier.

See my edit above....
post #47 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Edit: Your right, a bit more than 1 but, below still applies...

But anyway, that doesn't matter. I'm just saying that seeing more than what was posted might help clear up if some of the movements identified above were a consistent pattern in the skiing or a simple 1 turn miscue, which seems to be the point of contention so far in this thread....

zactly....
post #48 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
OK, as others have said, the lead skier has a lift of the old outside ski to initiate the turn in question, which is a less than perfect position of balance.
Why is this less than a perfect position for balance? Perhaps you mean that having two feet on the ground is more stable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
The trailing skier doesn't have the tipping skills the other skier has and is pushing their skis at the end of the turn to match the arc of the lead skier.
True enough, but lets ignore that hack for now.
post #49 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
I also think that what appears to be stemming on the first turn may be as a result of the inside leg being tipped so aggressively that the outside leg can't match the turn radius and he ends up on his tails causing a bit of catch-up going across the fall line into the next turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Stemming?
FD/Max,

I thought it was a push of the ski to tighten the radius to keep up with the lead skier, to an abstem when the edge angles get high enough and the speed low enough for the edges to engage...
post #50 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
I thought it was a push of the ski to tighten the radius to keep up with the lead skier, to an abstem when the edge angles get high enough and the speed low enough for the edges to engage...
Just ignore the skier in the back.

Edit: changed my mind. Where is this stem you are seeing. I can't find it.
post #51 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Perhaps you mean that having two feet on the ground is more stable?
Yes. Exactly. Max, honestly, this is the same move I see in intermediate skiers who have not learned how to release a turn. It's one of the most common errors in skiing. Now the skiing is obviously more high performance than that, but it's the same move. I cannot move (rotate) my skis in the direction of the new turn, because they are being blocked by the outside ski still holding the old edge. As a result, the only way I can initiate a new turn from that position is to lift that old outside ski out of the way, and transition my weight to the new outside ski. But as I said above and you correctly pointed out, having two skis on the snow is more stable than one (and which is why we don't go around skiing on 1 ski all the time.....)

Or is this the super phantom and I'm totally off base?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Edit: changed my mind. Where is this stem you are seeing. I can't find it.


Edit: End of turn 2. It's hard to see because you go out of frame at just that instant. I tried to isolate it, but it's hard on utube since it doesn't have good pause features. I've included 2 frames, but it's really kinda in between these. But if you look at the first frame you can see the outside ski starting to diverge. In the video, just before the second frame you can see a large differential in leg length that shouldn't be there for the amount of tipping your doing at that point...

EDIT2: 1. Sorry about the crappy image, quality loss on upload from my machine. 2. The stem, is not that bad, it's looks better in slo-mo.
525x525px-LL-vbattach1967.jpg
post #52 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Or is this the super phantom and I'm totally off base?
Yes, I would argue that you are totally off base. But perhaps not for the reasons you might think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Max, honestly, this is the same move I see in intermediate skiers who have not learned how to release a turn.
At this speed, in these conditions? I don't think so. BTW, this is an offensive move, not the defensive move you described. It causes the release to happen at the fastest possible rate.
post #53 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
At this speed, in these conditions? I don't think so. BTW, this is an offensive move, not the defensive move you described. It causes the release to happen at the fastest possible rate.
Really? So your saying that I can't do the same thing by keeping the ski on the snow and simply flattening it? I can do that pretty damn fast. What about the second turn where the ski of skier 1 is lightened, but kept on the snow? Was that one done incorrectly?

I suggest that you don't take everything that some say as gospel and start thinking for yourself....
post #54 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Edit: End of turn 2. It's hard to see because you go out of frame at just that instant. I tried to isolate it, but it's hard on utube since it doesn't have good pause features. I've included 2 frames, but it's really kinda in between these. But if you look at the first frame you can see the outside ski starting to diverge. In the video, just before the second frame you can see a large differential in leg length that shouldn't be there for the amount of tipping your doing at that point...

EDIT2: 1. Sorry about the crappy image, quality loss on upload from my machine. 2. The stem, is not that bad, it's looks better in slo-mo.
Interesting how we can have such different interpretations. I don't see a stem and the leg differential looks just right given the tipping. The problem is see is a total lack of counter acting movements at the top of the turn with a bit of shoulder lead. Perfect storm for causing the tails to slide. But the lead turn is far more interesting than this one.

post #55 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Really? So your saying that I can't do the same thing by keeping the ski on the snow and simply flattening it? I can do that pretty damn fast. What about the second turn where the ski of skier 1 is lightened, but kept on the snow? Was that one done incorrectly?
The fastest release possible is pulling the outside (load bearing) ski off of the snow. Its a complete and instant release of the turn forces.
post #56 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Interesting how we can have such different interpretations. I don't see a stem and the leg differential looks just right given the tipping. The problem is see is a total lack of counter acting movements at the top of the turn with a bit of shoulder lead. Perfect storm for causing the tails to slide. But the lead turn is far more interesting than this one.

It's after that image as your head off frame...
post #57 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The fastest release possible is pulling the outside (load bearing) ski off of the snow. Its a complete and instant release of the turn forces.
But Max, can't you do the same thing by actively rolling the ankles down the hill? (yes)
post #58 of 411
Quote:
Well, alot of the master's racers I know do a lift to release. I do it, guys I ski with do it, heck, I see it all the time.
I see it all the time too, and when I note someone who does it all the time, I wonder if they have misunderstood a learning exercise as a way to ski.
post #59 of 411
I've only been making short turns for a relatively short time, yet it didn't take me long to figure out how to load up a ski and make it jump off the snow. If as Max says these are race-stock slaloms, and you fully and suddenly release the old outside ski, it will jump off the snow. If you force it to stay on the snow you must absorb the released force and that will slow down your cm's travel. I think the intent here was to play with the rebound and use it.
post #60 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
It's after that image as your head off frame...
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