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Slicing a tight arc

post #1 of 411
Thread Starter 
I was reviewing video from a race camp I attended in June and came across this beautiful example of a slicing a very tight arc.

Notice the movements and the body position. What do you see?
post #2 of 411
Isn't that the Harb guy that all that fuss was about a few weeks ago?
post #3 of 411
Don't ask, don't tell
post #4 of 411
Tight arc is right. Seems to be arc'ed more across the hill than in the fall line. People wonder by so many skiers are skiing the tail of the skis so well, well it feels good and looks real fun. May not last very long in the bumps or trees. If you don't engage the front of the ski in the arc, you really have limited your options in terms of turn radius among other things

Looks like he is having fun, and that you have to admire regardless of the actual use of the tool.

G
post #5 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GR8TRN View Post
Seems to be arc'ed more across the hill than in the fall line.
I don't know what you mean here. Can you elaborate.
post #6 of 411
Looks like spam to me.
post #7 of 411

It's summer after all.

Well besides the obvious flex to release, I see a forward bias at the beginning of the turn and a tail bias at the end. The tails of the skis are hardly touching the snow as the new turn starts.

Going into the (skier's) left turn the rebound is added to the flex to release getting the ski off the snow. Going into the next (skier's) right turn, some of the rebound is directed to skier's body. I like to play with tight turns this way too. It's like your going over a virtual bump at transition. Depending on timing and how much rebound you use/absorb verses flex you can really make the skis or yourself jump.

With the short flexy skis you can really ski like a gazelle. With longer stiffer skis, you need to be aware of the rebound to plan (on the fly) your turns so that you don't demand grip when the down force is not there.
post #8 of 411
Looked like one tail was off the snow; I thought I saw daylight.

What you can do on soft snow and a gentle groomer versus that other stuff ....
post #9 of 411
I like the outfit...

red ski jackets rock.....

prefer white or black pants tho...better shows of the coolness of the shortie jacket look.
post #10 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrstrat57 View Post

red ski jackets rock.....
pretty slick.

He good, but not for me.
post #11 of 411

Slicing and Dicing the Ronco way

I see one turn where someone wHo Has overweighted their inside ski pushes with their right heel to get their outside ski to catch up. I'd point out all of the good things that this skier is doing, but this skier has stated that Max's movement analysis skills are far better than mine, so I'll let Max cover those points. Max? Anyone? Buehler? It suffices to say that I would not mind getting caught cheating like this.

BTW - the skier in the black pants in the background is doing some excellent skidding demonstrations.

Lifting the tip at turn initiation is a sign that weight is in the back seat. There's nothing wrong with this if you can recover and get your weight centered/forward. Getting in the back seat is one way that racers use to add acceleration to the end of the turn. This is a cool demonstration of this as you can see the inside ski get horizontal while airborne and then land tip first (indicating that weight has been recentered/ put forward). Cool, except for the beginning of the turn at the end of the clip where the outside (new turn) ski tip is lifted. What's up with that?
post #12 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
...I see a forward bias at the beginning of the turn and a tail bias at the end.
Ghost, this is one of the main things I noticed in this clip. It gives me a visual of the pressure moving from fore to aft during the turn. That feeling where the skis seem to be slicing around the body. With luck I'll be able to make a turn like that one day at this radius and speed.

BTW, those skis are Head race stock slaloms. I think 166cm with a 13m radius.

I'm the skier in the back. As you can see I was having a tough time holding an edge locked carve at this turn radius and I was on much softer skis. I've got lots to work on!
post #13 of 411
Nice Max, I saw your posting of this on the other site. What did i see? I did notice that the inside ski was being picked up off the snow during the turn rather than remaining on the ground and just tipping? I don't think that's so bad but I thought it violated your methodology? I also think that what appears to be stemming on the first turn may be as a result of the inside leg being tipped so aggressively that the outside leg can't match the turn radius and he ends up on his tails causing a bit of catch-up going across the fall line into the next turn. I think you should have included the next couple of turns as I think that would have been better for eval. purposes. If you have any footage of skiing on steep terrain that would be interesting. Just my novice opinion. Better than i can do for sure though. Alos, just a reminder that there are very few perfect turns and you have to be able to adjust. This means having varied skills in your bag.
post #14 of 411
I saw the left ski up also when it's becoming the inside ski but also look at the next turn. It's hard to see but it looks like left ski comes up again when it's becoming the outside ski, not a lot, maybe just the tip.

Maybe this guy just really likes is right leg, we all have a stronger leg, so he's not quite skiing both skis.
post #15 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
I did notice that the inside ski was being picked up off the snow during the turn rather than remaining on the ground and just tipping? I don't think that's so bad but I thought it violated your methodology?
I lift often. Its the best way to cause an immediate release for tight turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
I also think that what appears to be stemming...
Stemming?
post #16 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post
I saw the left ski up also when it's becoming the inside ski but also look at the next turn. It's hard to see but it looks like left ski comes up again when it's becoming the outside ski, not a lot, maybe just the tip.

Maybe this guy just really likes is right leg, we all have a stronger leg, so he's not quite skiing both skis.
Looks to me like its at the float, so he is very light. Probably hit a clump of snow. I see it being weighted right away as the high C starts.
post #17 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
I think you should have included the next couple of turns as I think that would have been better for eval. purposes.
The purpose of this post was to explore that movements that yield a tight slicing arc. Plenty of frames here to do that.
post #18 of 411
Since you have all the answers why don't you just discuss it for us? I can see that you may lift often but I certainly wouldn't have the same expectations for your skiing (especially as seen here) as a 20 year WC'er. I don't think these were the perfect turns you may think they are. Sorry, my hope in seeing other turns is that maybe they would be more "perfect". Sorry Max but your true colors and intent is showing..... BTW: Lifting is learning....yada, yada, yada.......
post #19 of 411
Max, looking at the video you posted, I was more interested in watching you than Harald. Has anyone suggested that your poles may be too long for you? When Harald turns, his pole touch is fairly close to his body, his forward progress continues smoothly and his body is usually balanced nicely over his downhill ski. In contrast, your touch is further down the hill, making you "reach" further than perhaps you need, which subsequently pulls you out of balance. Your actual pole touch, because the poles seem to be too long, appear to jar you and throw you back, interrupting your forward flow. The hand you touch with then tends to drop back behind you, creating an upper-body rotation that I know you don't want. This puts your weight onto your uphill ski, forcing you to do more than you want to in the transition to recover back to your downhill foot.

What do you think?
post #20 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Max, looking at the video you posted, I was more interested in watching you than Harald. Has anyone suggested that your poles may be too long for you? When Harald turns, his pole touch is fairly close to his body, his forward progress continues smoothly and his body is usually balanced nicely over his downhill ski. In contrast, your touch is further down the hill, making you "reach" further than perhaps you need, which subsequently pulls you out of balance. Your actual pole touch, because the poles seem to be too long, appear to jar you and throw you back, interrupting your forward flow. The hand you touch with then tends to drop back behind you, creating an upper-body rotation that I know you don't want. This puts your weight onto your uphill ski, forcing you to do more than you want to in the transition to recover back to your downhill foot.

What do you think?
I think its a valid observation. My poles are adjustable and I've been trying various lengths. Unfortunately I still rush my pole plant and that also screws me up. I've been trying to get more of a swing to the outside rather than a swing that ends up right in front. More work to be done there. As you can see not nearly enough counter in the either of my turns. Heck, in one turn I rotate into the turn. Not good. BTW, I fully admit my skiing in this footage is quite clearly lacking.
post #21 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Alos, just a reminder that there are very few perfect turns and you have to be able to adjust. This means having varied skills in your bag.
All adjustments are for the purposes of maintaining balance, are they not?

So my question is, what skills are you talking about?
post #22 of 411
"I lift often. Its the best way to cause an immediate release for tight turns."

You are advocating lifting the inside ski in short radius turns? That's a fine drill, perhaps, but not a way to ski.
post #23 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
You are advocating lifting the inside ski in short radius turns? That's a fine drill, perhaps, but not a way to ski.
Absolutely. And almost all racers I know lift for slalom turns. Why do you think that's not a good way to ski?

Edit for clarification. The lift occurs at the end of the turn to generate a very fast release. The ski is placed back on the snow as the CM moves into the new turn.
post #24 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
I don't think these were the perfect turns you may think they are. Sorry, my hope in seeing other turns is that maybe they would be more "perfect". Sorry Max but your true colors and intent is showing.....
Finndog, my intent is nothing more than discussing the turn of the skier that is in the red suit. I think its a wonderful example of a short radius sliced arc. What problems do you see with that turn? What movements are incorrect and how could he have made this turn perfect in your eyes?
post #25 of 411
Lifting the inside ski was very prevalent in slalom in the late 70s era of Klaus Heidegger and Christian Orlainsky. Not used as much today (haven't seen Benni doing it for example) but it is sometimes still seen, as was discussed here:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=49061
post #26 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
Lifting the inside ski was very prevalent in slalom in the late 70s era of Klaus Heidegger and Christian Orlainsky. Not used as much today (haven't seen Benni doing it for example) but it is sometimes still seen, as was discussed here:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=49061
I just watched the men's Olympic footage and there is alot of lifting going on.
post #27 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
All adjustments are for the purposes of maintaining balance, are they not?

So my question is, what skills are you talking about?

Ahh the trusty sidekick arrives! The point is that Max has been claiming you only make one kind of turn and there is no need to make adjustments, In fact, Max stated that adjustments to technique may be dangerous. Following Max's logic, A clump of snow should not have caused any change to the ski technique (leaving a ski on the snow or lifting is a variation) or "rules", My point is that all kinds of skiing require adjustments and varied "tools" to ski well. A good skier can make adjustments just like in that video; and he is a good skier.

As far as lifting goes, I think "lifting is learning, lightning is expert" about sums it up. These are not my words...
post #28 of 411
It may be a way to ski on the World Cup, but who around here skis on the World Cup (and anymore, for Martin)?
post #29 of 411
This is an example of a highly trained racer (or former racer) using the rebound of a short slalom ski to improve the transition of the two turns.

Yes?

Michael

Edit: I didn't see Nolo's post above while composing mine.
post #30 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
It may be a way to ski on the World Cup, but who around here skis on the World Cup (and anymore, for Martin)?
Well, alot of the master's racers I know do a lift to release. I do it, guys I ski with do it, heck, I see it all the time.
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