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Paste Wax Hocus Pocus

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Just curious to see how many of you use paste waxes regularly as a substitute for hot waxing.
post #2 of 23
Never. It will work for you in a pinch but will not last as long as a good hot wax.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
I hear ya. I absolutely refuse to put that crap on my skis, ever. Just wondered if there were others w/ the same obsessive attitude towards waxing.
post #4 of 23
You gotta love and respect the skis you are on.... nuff said.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 15, 2001 03:46 PM: Message edited 1 time, by VK ]</font>
post #5 of 23
Paste wax is helpful in spring slop. it can be easily put on between runs...but as a regular wax, no. Zardoz "not wax" is in the same catagory.
post #6 of 23
I like the paste wax Swix F4, Holmenkol paste etc., when on multi day trips. Rub it in, cork it firmly, brush it out. You're good to go.
Doesn't last as long as a hot wax, but who lugs all their tune-up gear on trips?
post #7 of 23
Only did so once in a pinch when we couldn't find one working iron (amoung four sitting on and around our tuning bench). It seemed to work OK to get me through a couple of Nastar runs, but no replacement for a good hotwax.
post #8 of 23
I'm w/ VK, nothing compares to time spent working on your skis on your workbench with the files, hot wax, scraper, etc. I have a can of Swix F4 that I bought 2 yrs ago used once and keep on hand for emergencies only. It just doesn't have the friction reduction properties of careful waxing. I love Swix wax but not the F4.
post #9 of 23
One note here....

Swix F4 and its analogs from other companies are OVERLAYS!!! You put them on top of your hot wax NOT instead of it, as the original post suggested. These speed overlays that come in a paste, powder or spray form are designed to work for one race run. They are high on fluoros, that do not do any good to your bases if left there for an extended period of time. You need to hot scrape your skis about 3 times to remove the fluoros after you use them.

I just do not see the need for recreational skiers to use fluorinated wax. The advantage you gain even in the warmest of conditions is not worth the money you spend. If you are too lazy or do not have enough time to do a proper wax job, your skis will be better off if you just take a bar of wax, rub it on the base and cork it in.

post #10 of 23
My "quickie" wax is VK's suggestion: Rub the bar of wax on and cork it in. Keeps the bottoms from drying out too much.
post #11 of 23
Do you even need to wax your skis? If you are not racing or touring what is the point?
post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
Not trying to start an argument, but there are technically no past or liquid speed overlays produced by any company. Paste waxes are quick fixes for people who don't care to or don't have the time to hot wax & they are most definitely not considered a "high fluoro" wax which is indicated by their low price. True speed overlays are in powder, sintered powder (semi solid), or in a couple of cases, true solid form & insanely expensive.
The only time I can fathom wiping on a spray or paste wax over hot waxed skis is in a situation where I had used straight hydrocarbons and ran into super sloppy, wet snow. A paste will give me a tiny bit of fluoro boost, but that's it. Otherwise, using paste over hotwax would be like putting $20.00 retreads on a '67 Shelby Mustang
post #13 of 23
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blue:
Do you even need to wax your skis? If you are not racing or touring what is the point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are not racing or touring why stay in shape for skiing?
Same idea. Skis need to be maintained and don't work well without.
Someone here said awhile ago that they only tune once a season, which I found hard to believe. Unless I'm skiing only powder, I find I need to work on my edges at least once every 6 days and wax at least once every three.
post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 
Philth nailed it. Everybody tunes their car or their mtn. bike regularly to keep them in prime running condition..same w/ skis. Plus, it keeps me from blaming a crappy day on my equipment!
post #15 of 23
Ok- I always hot wax my skis with the Swix CH wax, because it's cheaper and I race high school. During Western Maines we train in the morning then race in the afternoon/evening. I'll wax the skis the night before, but can';t in the middle of the ski day. What I usually do is buy a mini smapler of the F4 paste/liquidy stuff- works for both skis. Will that speed me up for one run? SHoul;d I ski a run with the stuff on my skis before the actual race run, or put the stuff on and race? Usually it's icy/cold snow. Thanks!
post #16 of 23
Thread Starter 
Here's a good rule of thumb...if you can pick up a hand full of snow & you can't make a snowball with it at all...CH or hydrocarbon waxes are need for paste, fluoro..nadda (unless it's very dirty snow i.e. pollen, diesel fuel residue from snow cats etc..)
If you can make a decent snowball, low to mid fluoro or if you're desparate, paste (F4, SVST's Power Paste)...i
If you can make a snowball & squeeze water out of it..High Fluoro's will run best but they are expensive.
Paste waxes have an organic solvent in them that keeps them in paste form. Rubbing that over a hot waxed ski in conditions when fluoro is not needed will actually slow you down by compromising the integrity of your CH hotwax making it much less durable which is the goal when waxing for low humidity, dry aggressive cold snow conditions.
post #17 of 23

Not for the sake of argument but...

Looking at the product line of three most popular in US wax manufacturers:

F4 (which, I agree is not marketed as overlay) is fluorinated wax that comes in paste and liquid forms.

Dibloc High Fluoro, Paste Wax comes in paste form
DLF2 Racing Wax 75ml comes in a liquid form.
Both, even though are not marketed as overlays, are presented as the "Professional", high end waxes.

R6 Fluorinated overlay comes in a paste form

And finally the latest and IMHO the greatest overlay that helped Eric Schlopy rise to #3 in WC GS standings - MoleculeF - comes in a spray form.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 15, 2001 03:46 PM: Message edited 2 times, by VK ]</font>
post #18 of 23
Thread Starter 
I've not disputed the fact that these companies paste waxes, marked heavily towards those who are not interested in complete ski/snowboard maintenance, contain fluoros. That's why I mentioned their usefullness when you've prepped skis for no humidity & happen to encounter it.
What I was trying to do was make a distinction between what you termed as "speed overlays" which typically refer to racing pure fluoro powders & solids. If there is any question which is which, simply compare price.
The incredible difficulty in manipulating fluorine creates the incredible prices when dealing w/ a substance that has a significant amount.
Take a look at these comparisons:
Toko Dibloc "High Fluoro" retails at about $18.00 for 75 ml. To buy an equal amount of the true Toko Speed Overlay, Jetstream would cost you roughly $250.00

The DLF2 is now called Nano Tec & as the abbreviation indicates, it's a low fluoro so doesn't even count in this discussion.

Dominator R6 was a weak attempt by Dominator to use the name of 2 semi successful products Rocket (a low end rub on) & what was formerly known as F65, now simply 65 ( a high end, pure fluoro solid speed overlay) mixed & thinned out w/ a benzene or toluene type solvent. By nature, these 2 waxes do not belong together...a $105/oz. race overlay & a $10.00/oz hard rub on?? Gimme a break Dominator! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Swix F4 paste (which actually tested slower than SVST's Power Paste & doesn't last as long) yet another cheap quick fixer sells for about $11.00 for 40ml. An equilivalent amount of their cheapest Speed Overlay FC100 or FC200 goes for around $114.00

Molecule F is a true Speed overlay and a new player in the field but doesn't qualify in our Cheap Paste vs. Authentic Speed Overlay discussion because it has absolutely no solvents...sort of the keystone of my posting this topic in the first place (solvents = bad!!!!). BTW...information from World Cup tests indicate the Molecule F that Schlopy uses are beneficial when compared to other Speed Overlay only in the technical events..not speed events for which they use other, non liquid products.

So..after all that my argument is simple. There are Paste quick fixers which are most definitely harmful to ski base material after prolonged use and should never be applied over a fluorinated hot wax...and then there are Authentic Speed Overlays selling for hundreds of dollars that are designed specifically to be applied over hot wax, contain no solvents & will not damage your skis (unless you apply them constantly without trying to manage the fluoro build up on your skis).
That's all I'm trying to say...we should be careful not to confuse the 2 and it's easy to tell by looking at the price tag or taking a big whiff of what's in the jar.
post #19 of 23
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arby:
I like the paste wax Swix F4, Holmenkol paste etc., when on multi day trips. Rub it in, cork it firmly, brush it out. You're good to go.
Doesn't last as long as a hot wax, but who lugs all their tune-up gear on trips?

Me [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On multiday trips I carry a toko wax mouse, a block or 2 of all purpose wax (usually hertel hotsauce and my edger with 2 DMT stones sharpeners and a steel scraper. If I need different wax then I'll purchase. Neat thing is all these tools fit between my skis in my hard case.
post #20 of 23

I was just merely stating the fact that some waxes marketed as speed overlays come in different form.

I absolutely agree that any fluorinated wax, especially high fluoros, should be used with caution, as it can do harm to the ski base.

I think we have the same view on the problem.

How about we start a thread with a question how many people here are ruining their skis by using the wax-removal solvents :

post #21 of 23
Thread Starter 
I hear ya Bro! Nasty stuff.
Like I said, I posted this topic hoping it would find it's way to the solvent delema and in the process just wanted to make it clear that we consumers are forced to weed through a ton of b.s. marketing schemes to find out what's actually going to work & what will or will not kill our poor, neglected bases! Ya know?
post #22 of 23
I knew we'd get to the base damage issue.

Although I do agree some mineral solvents can damage a ski base, citrus based solvents are relatively mild. I will occasionally use the citrus stuff sparingly.

Before waxing I will brass brush. That's it.
(Not including edge work). I don't see a whole lot of value hot scraping. Snow is very abbrasive and all previous waxes are gone by the time my skis make it to my bench. Any dirt, grime and previous wax (if any) is easily brushed out. Any microscopic wax molecules down in the pores of the base are just re-melted by the iron and blended with the new wax.

I know serious racers hot scrape the daylights out of their race skis, but for the rest of us, what's the value?

I've done this countless times for many years on lots of skis on have never damaged a base.

My skis are also shop ground yearly and they always come back good as new.
post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
Actually, anything that dissolves wax is harmful to base material, if for no other reason than this; Most impurities your ski or snowboard comes into contact with are organic in nature…diesel residue, pollen, some of the contents in “dirt”…etc…all organic in nature. The solvents used to dissolve ski wax are organic solvents…like dissolves like which means these solvents don’t actually clean your skis…they simply dissolve the larger organic particles and force them deeper into your base…over time, this action literally clogs the pores resulting in more frequent waxing of slower running equipment that is more susceptible to uv damage.
Prior to Molecule F’s fluoro cleaner…the only way to manage fluoro build up in a ski was hot wax waxing, one of the most important reasons to practice this technique (fluorine is destructive & has a very high affinity to base material). Also, hot waxing is the safest way to remove organic (and inorganic) impurities. On top of all of that…the more you hot wax, the more conditioned your ski…the less likely it is to be damaged by dry friction & uv radiation.
I don’t know about you guys, but if I’m going to invest the kind of $$ they want for decent skis these days, I’m damn sure going to do whatever it takes to keep them in top condition.
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