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Rotation and carving - Page 3

post #61 of 111
Michael B, Yes, I can't wait to discuss the menucia on the snow at the Boat :0 The New PE's arrived today and I am jonesin'
post #62 of 111
Indeed, the initial tipping of the feet (lateral inverting and everting, as defined well by Max), does not require significant activity of the femurs. It does, however, require SOME, which only increases as tipping increases. Try this: Stand with your right hand on your right thigh. Tip your right foot to the right (roll the little toe over and lift your arch). Feet the activity in your thigh? Continue tipping the right foot over. The only way it can occur is if the thigh (femur) rotates open in the same direction, no?

Hip movement (lateral and lifted in the same direction as the turn) will augment this when we ski, but my understanding of human physiology is that the fundamental mechanism allowing and controlling the amount of tipping is independent rotation of the femurs.
post #63 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Tip your right foot to the right (roll the little toe over and lift your arch). Feet the activity in your thigh? Continue tipping the right foot over. The only way it can occur is if the thigh (femur) rotates open in the same direction, no?
Now, try the same tipping with a cocontracted hip joint. Make sure the knee stays lined up with the ankle and hip (no knee angulation). Done correctly the tipping of the foot moves the hips via the kinetic chain. That is the tipping I use to get angles. Note that the femur rotation you describe does not occur in this senario.
post #64 of 111
Hi, Max! By "cocontracted," do you mean pull your right hip laterally to the right and tip it higher when tipping your right foot? If so, that does, indeed, allow my foot to continue tipping, but it also locks my hips so no counter is possible; i.e., if I want to tighten my turn radius and point my hips and upper body left and more down the imaginary hill. Your suggested technique would seem to require my legs and upper body (starting with my hips) to become one fused unit. As far as I know, the only way I can add counter is if I separate the activity of my hips and my rotating femurs (hips turn left, femurs rotate right). How do you do it?
post #65 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Michael B, Yes, I can't wait to discuss the menucia on the snow at the Boat :0 The New PE's arrived today and I am jonesin'
I'm hoping that the the snow is so deep that any discussion of carving is out-of-context! Plus its difficult to discuss technique when you have a face full of powder and your laughing and roaring in joy!

Congrats on the PE's

Michael
post #66 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
By cocontracted do you mean pull your right hip laterally to the right and tip it higher when tipping your right foot?
No. I'll try to dig up some text that explains it well.
post #67 of 111
Thanks!
post #68 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
I'm hoping that the the snow is so deep that any discussion of carving is out-of-context! Plus its difficult to discuss technique when you have a face full of powder and your laughing and roaring in joy!

Congrats on the PE's

Michael
Amen to that brother Too much analysis leads to less fresh powder to track up....
post #69 of 111
Too much analysis? Here? NAAHHH!!

(But better here than on the snow!)
post #70 of 111
Ok, I'll buy that! I enjoy but sometimes the symantics and sublties...You would have to be on the snow to tell. Many times the dry-land or theoretical application is just not real on the snow. Many of the movements or principles are correct given that they are performed 100% of the time in the same precise manner. This just isn't realistic to expect. If you are skiing on nice easy blue-green groomed runs, that kind of precision highest chance of of consistent replication but add in some trees, stumps, rocks, crud, death cookies, skiers from Houston and Dallas and all bets are off.... If you don't have the ability to modify your technique to adapt, it's meaningless. It's all good though. It's better than being out in the heat. Hope you dont mind my questions. It does help to learn.
post #71 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Many of the movements or principles are correct given that they are performed 100% of the time in the same precise manner. This just isn't realistic to expect. If you are skiing on nice easy blue-green groomed runs, that kind of precision highest chance of of consistent replication but add in some trees, stumps, rocks, crud, death cookies, skiers from Houston and Dallas and all bets are off.... If you don't have the ability to modify your technique to adapt, it's meaningless. .
My all mountain short turn should be the same regardless of terrain. I build the ability to use the same movements by mastering them on green, then blue, black, double black, etc. Modifications are not needed or desired. In fact, I'd argue that on-the-fly modifications in difficult terrain can lead to mistakes that result in injury. When things get tough and require an instantaneous reaction I want the movements I rely on to be 2nd nature.
post #72 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
My all mountain short turn should be the same regardless of terrain. I build the ability to use the same movements by mastering them on green, then blue, black, double black, etc. Modifications are not needed or desired. In fact, I'd argue that on-the-fly modifications in difficult terrain can lead to mistakes that result in injury. When things get tough and require an instantaneous reaction I want the movements I rely on to be 2nd nature.
All mountain turns are like all mountain skis, they function moderately well in most conditions but don't excel at anything.

Specialization is a natural progression for any athlete in any activity. Not since J Killy won 3 gold metals has any skier performed equally well in all situations.

Doing it all equally well is a myth.

Michael
post #73 of 111
max, no offense but you are skiing down a line between trees, irregular terrain, as you go over what you think is a hard log, it crumbles under your feet and you suddenly drop 3' on already irregular crudded terrain, it is impossible to maintain the same cadence and turn form. You are You have to be able to adjust. That may mean landing on one foot, throwing your skis sideways, landing on your ass and recovering while moving down hill or other to regain balance or scrub speed in an instant. It's all about adjusting. That doesn't make any of your skills less important. Even your instructor lands on one foot during his video when he gets knocked off balance. Are you saying you never get knocked off balance or surprised by hidden terrain?
post #74 of 111
What's the difference between a new move, a modification and a change of degree in the same move. Tipping angles that work fine on hardpack would have you sinking to periscope depth in the deep. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with a little tip grab and tail release at a lower tipping angle now and then.
post #75 of 111
Keep in mind that I'm talking about my all mountain turn. Its a bit different then my balls to the walls edge locked carving.I ski narly terrain all of the time and in very tough snow and weather conditions. I use the same turn all the time. The reason I'm able to do this is that I've taken the time to build this all mountain turn to perfection on progressively more difficult runs. I spend a significant amount of time working my turns and doing drills on groomed runs and it really pays off in my all mountain skiing.So, yes, one turn for all conditions (other than carving). For someone like me that has no interest in trying to figure out which skills I should blend to survive the situation Findog described above...well...all I can say is that it works wonders for me.
post #76 of 111
Thread Starter 
Hi Max,

I realize my comments may lack tact, let me explain.

I consider the use of "rotation" (in the broadest sense of the term) to be a required and strategic addition to good ski technique. While excessive and uncontrolled use of the upper body and independent leg rotation is always detrimental to good technique, the appropriate use of rotation speeds turn transitions and tightens the line of the turn. On certain terrain this is needed for controlled and agile skiing.

I like Mikes definitions of this appropriate use as;

""Counter" is a controlled and progressive turning of the hips and upper body opposite the direction of the ski tips to help adjust turn radius as desired.

"Independent femur rotation" or "Independent leg steering" is the movement of the femurs independent of the hips which allows both a direction change on a relatively flat ski, as well as an increase or decrease in the amount of tipping of the feet. This also allows controlled adjustment of turn radius".

I have seen your video and like many, many posters I also notice this type of rotation in you skiing. I'm not pointing out a fault, I'm inclined to think you ski well and that you adjust your skiing to the terrain like everyone else.

I also believe that you work hard to minimize these upper body and independent leg motions and this will improve a skiers technique while carving on hardpack.

But to say you ski the same in every situation stretches reality a bit.

Best regards,

Michael
post #77 of 111
If I may interject,

Quote:
Originally Posted by barretscv
"Independent femur rotation" or "Independent leg steering" is the movement of the femurs independent of the hips which allows both a direction change on a relatively flat ski, as well as an increase or decrease in the amount of tipping of the feet. This also allows controlled adjustment of turn radius".
The issue is not that rotation exists, it is the motive source of the rotation. Rotary is present and must be controlled in every movement. The priority in Max's skiing is movement of the feet, then secondarily movement of the legs/upper body in response/supportive to the foot movement. Even bud has agreed that rotary plays a supportive and not primary role.

IMO, Max views the rotary that is to be avoided as being initiated from high in the body and leading the turning effort. I agree.
post #78 of 111
Post 64, reply to Max: "Your suggested technique would seem to require my legs and upper body (starting with my hips) to become one fused unit. As far as I know, the only way I can add counter is if I separate the activity of my hips and my rotating femurs (hips turn left, femurs rotate right). How do you do it?"

Max, a few days ago we were having an interesting discussion about whether the turn mechanics you use preclude the use of counter to adjust turn radius (posts 47, 48, 51, 62, 63, 64). You said the above description was not accurate and promised to clarify. I am still looking forward to that. Thanks!

Big E: That is not my interpretation of what Max advocates. If it is, Max and I have little disagreement!
post #79 of 111
I quit......my head is bleeding from every opening.....
post #80 of 111
No, Finn! Come backkk!!
post #81 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
I'm inclined to think ...that you adjust your skiing to the terrain like everyone else.
Sure, I will change from a carve to my all mountain turn based on terrain. In addition I will change timing and quantity of movements when the turn shape requires. But the basic movement pattern for my all mountain turn stays the same.[/quote]
post #82 of 111
I do not mean to be a pest here, Max, but you seem to be ignoring this question:

Does your universal turn (based, as I understand it, only on increasing and decreasing lateral edge angles), allow you to counter with your hips and upper body or not? If so, when do you use it and how do you create it if your legs, hips and upper body are fused into one unit pointing and moving in the same direction?

I really do not understand the physiology here.
post #83 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Does your universal turn...allow you to counter...
Sure, I use counter acting movements whenever the need arises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
If so, when do you use it and how do you create it if your legs, hips and upper body are fused into one unit pointing and moving in the same direction?
I never said that the legs, hips, and upper body were fused into a single unit. That idea is likely a misunderstanding derived from the suggestion that one should co-contract the hip joint while tipping.

As I stated earlier I'll dig up the specific text that explain the biomechanics when I can. My TBTS Instructor's Manual is out on loan. I hope to have it back this weekend or sometime next week.
post #84 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
max, no offense but you are skiing down a line between trees, irregular terrain, as you go over what you think is a hard log, it crumbles under your feet and you suddenly drop 3' on already irregular crudded terrain, it is impossible to maintain the same cadence and turn form.
A great skier (not me) doesn't miss a beat when this happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
You are You have to be able to adjust. That may mean landing on one foot, throwing your skis sideways, landing on your ass and recovering while moving down hill or other to regain balance or scrub speed in an instant. It's all about adjusting. That doesn't make any of your skills less important. Even your instructor lands on one foot during his video when he gets knocked off balance. Are you saying you never get knocked off balance or surprised by hidden terrain?
Finndog, note that you are assuming that this type of ever changing terrain requires a loss of balance. I'd suggest that at higher skill levels balance is constantly changing but rarely lost. I've skied with high level skiers that blast through this type of crap and look as elegant and carefree as they do on groomed runs. What you are describing above is a series of recoveries caused by poor balance and perhaps a lower skill level.
post #85 of 111
For some off-piste, watch the skiing in the header at this site.

http://www.snowproab.com
post #86 of 111
http://www.challengesports.net/right...january30.html

http://www.challengesports.net/right...t/2006/m1.html

No, more like this. This is from Steamboat Powdercats. This is much more fun! I am not hucking anything over 6' yet but skiing more terrain now as in these examples. BTW- if there's good snow in December, we are hitting Steamboat Powdercats....


BTW- go to the "Anyone can be an expert video", the segment I am speaking of is in the bumps section. It's a great example of how you regain your balance by making quick adjustments. Its a compliment!
post #87 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
BTW- go to the "Anyone can be an expert video", the segment I am speaking of is in the bumps section. It's a great example of how you regain your balance by making quick adjustments. Its a compliment!
The adjustment you see there is part of the technique taught. Its nothing out of the ordinary. Just weighting the inside ski. He shows it to make a point that you need to learn to ski on either ski at any time. My point is that there is no adjustment in technique there.
post #88 of 111
Of course its an adjustment and a good one. Its what I consider another skill or tool. Just like how you steer your feet when creating the incredible knetic energy when releasing your edges.

More importantly, don't those videos from Steamboat Snowcats look awesome? That's some sweet pow and runs.
post #89 of 111
I consider that adjustment just part of being balanced.

It sounds like there is a fundamental difference of what "technique" means. Finndog seems to say that an isolated movement pattern is one "technique". In that view skiing has many techniques for poling, edging, pressure control, balance, coordination, timing, rotation, adustments etc.

That also means we're not at all on the same page, and arguing past each other.

Sort of trollish if you ask me.
post #90 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Of course its an adjustment and a good one. Its what I consider another skill or tool.
If you are saying that it is an adjustment in technique (like throwing a pivot in to a carved turn to make a tight gate) then I disagree.

What I see in that little clip is an emphasis on the importance of balance and the ability to ski on either foot at any time. The skier makes a quick change (switching feet) using the technique that is taught in that particular system. If you want to call that an adjustment of the skiers stance foot, that's fine by me.

However, what you continue to state as a categorical fact, is that one needs the ability to constantly adjust their technique to ski off piste conditions. I would ask why do you think that? Is it because the technique you are using is too narrow to accommodate the ever changing conditions so you need to constantly modify it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
More importantly, don't those videos from Steamboat Snowcats look awesome? That's some sweet pow and runs.
The pow is awesome, not doubt. The tree runs look nice too.

The trees lines at Bachelor lack those nice thin aspens (with no branches) so they are fairly dense, but still lots of fun in good conditions. However, our trees don't excite me much. Maybe because we have so much tree skiing at Bachelor and I'm in them alot. Plus, the powder tends to be on the heavier side which takes more effort. I'm just as happy (happier maybe) in a bump run (which, sadly, we don't have much of at Bachelor).
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