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Future Tech/Teach Forum: Tech Talk and Ski Instruction and Technique - Page 3

post #61 of 97
Cirque, the idea that there would be a debate thread and an instructional thread is pretty good too. So one could label a topic "xxx - intructional" and another 'xxx-debate' to keep a lid on thread drift. Moving noisy posts from "instructional" to "debate" could be by request of the thread starter using "report post".

It sort of makes it difficult to manage a thread, as you have to have good familiarity with this process, and not be afraid to use it.
post #62 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Cirque,

If this mythical coach that was coerced into posting once, only to be flamed to death COULD delete the offending posts, the coach could keep his line of thinking clear.

Perhaps giving the feature to every thread starter is over the edge, but IMO, a few deserve the privelege.
The coach could work with moderators and assure his thread will stay on track. It's a bit more work for moderators but there is a need to keep a handle on the instruction threads.
hey, we're all big people - I'm betting al the instructors/coaches are adults. I've personally started threads that someone tried to take OT. I just posted a post asking them to take that topic to a new thread, and keep this one on topic. There seems no reason why others can't use this same technique. I think peeps are trying to make this whole thing too complicated, what with all this deleting/editing/moderating - I think that whole approach is too complicated and unnecessary.

But I do like the idea of an instructor to instructor forum, and idea which I have raised elsewhere, and will get back to in the next day or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
...
It sort of makes it difficult to manage a thread, as you have to have good familiarity with this process, and not be afraid to use it.
I think we're approximately on the same wavelength.
post #63 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
hey, we're all big people - I'm betting al the instructors/coaches are adults. I've personally started threads that someone tried to take OT. I just posted a post asking them to take that topic to a new thread, and keep this one on topic. There seems no reason why others can't use this same technique. I think peeps are trying to make this whole thing too complicated, what with all this deleting/editing/moderating - I think that whole approach is too complicated and unnecessary.

But I do like the idea of an instructor to instructor forum, and idea which I have raised elsewhere, and will get back to in the next day or so.



I think we're approximately on the same wavelength.
This idea pertained to the master coaching idea.

In the real world here some people just don't take the hint, the PM or even the direct request. In order to get top pros to post and start threads they feel are important they will have to be given more latitude to control the direction of their threads.
The different levels of discussion need differing levels of moderation.
Some can be mostly self moderating ,as you suggest. Others will be need to be helped to stay on track and others will have to have a fairly singular line of discussion subject to the direction the master coach would like it to go

Separating into different sub forums would help make this distinction. We need to identify and label what these different sub forums should represent.

One format that might be easy to offer is an ask a coach Q & A. Ask a question and get answers or an answer from a selected panel of coaches. It would spawn threads by the questions that come from the questions answered but would itself simplified into a direct question ,answer(s)and on to the next question. Possibly have the questions delivered to the coaches or a panel mailbox location and the answers could be submitted with the questions after contemplation by the panel or a coach that wishes to share .
post #64 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Simplest approach:

Allow the thread starter to delete posts in their thread.
That works really well for some master coach on some other forum.
post #65 of 97
Exactly MilesB, questions about the content are valid, but attacks on the content are not -- eg. "yes but if we do it THIS way instead....". That's the junk the master coach wishes to avoid. He wants to own the topic, not watch his efforts get sidetracked.

I'm sure I've caused my share of topic drift, but there is so much here, that renaming the site www.epicdrift.com would be quite accurate.
post #66 of 97
The entire team has been working on this as the conversation progressed here. This is what we have. This is being put out for discussion and refinement by the community we try to serve here, so your input is appreciated and heard.

The moratorium on PMTS was always intended as temporary, and in the second phase of the posting policy (see below), a strict prohibition on words and terms will not exist; however, we will provide guidelines to prevent another marketing attack. Encouraging members to use their own words and personal experience to debate technique, was a logical goal of phase 1, as was trying to eliminate the PMTS baiting. This has improved the civility of debate and is a trend we want to see continued.

In this thread and in various comments on moderation, we have observed that we have two distinct groups of posters in the instruction forums; those that like to debate the minutia of technique, and those who feel that endless debate degrades or at least dilutes the contributions of the "master teachers". We need to accommodate both of those needs, and the inclination is to provide two forum areas with distinct objectives. The moderation team along with nolo, dchan and ssh have arrived at the following summary of objectives for these forums, and we are seeking your input for refinement of these ideas.

Ski Instruction and Technique: This forum is for requesting and providing teaching, mentoring, problem solving and discussions of instruction and instructor training, and personal instruction experience. Discussion of ski instruction and technique concepts and ideas in this area are encouraged; however if debate breaks out that is deemed very technical in nature or very narrow in its definition and scope (i.e. a sub-topic to the thread), the posts may be moved to the Tech Talk where conversation can be continued without disrupting the learning threads. Members wishing to debate details rather than concept, are encouraged to quote the post in question and start a thread in Tech Talk. Consider this the Keep It Simple area of the instruction forums where coaches meet students or other coaches and discuss effective instruction approaches, instructor certification, employment, and coach / student solutions. Moderators will assist thread authors to keep threads on-topic, and will respond to bad post flags by moderating or moving posts as necessary to achieve this.

Tech Talk
This forum is for debate and detailed discussion of advanced skiing and teaching techniques and movements. This forum is intended for skiing junkies who can't get enough detail, and for coaches and advanced students seeking to improve their skiing through better and detailed understanding of skiing and teaching techniques. This area of the instruction forums will receive less moderator intervention to keep threads on-topic. Significantly less moderation is contemplated in this forum provided posts adhere to terms and conditions and posting guidelines.

Posting Policy for Instruction Forums
Members are cautioned that branded words, people, and concepts are admissible so long as mentioning them isn't the reason for the post, or of a repetitive nature which we would define as marketing. Posts or links designed to generate revenue from any skiing related activity—the promotion or sale of merchandise, instruction, travel, etc., are treated as affiliate relationships and we will negotiate them case-by-case. Members are encouraged to use their own words and experience to communicate, using links to images and off-site resources in the public domain as needed to support their personal ideas, theories and opinions.

Thanks to all who have participated in this thread and contributed your ideas.
post #67 of 97
I anticipate a wider based participation from the Epic community in the Instruction forum from this change. That's a good thing.

Sharing ideas and concepts and being able to ask questions are what this portion of the forum is all about. I agree with BigE that "attacks on content are not acceptable. That's the junk the master coach wishes to avoid." May I suggest that's the junk that most of us wish to avoid!

When the attacks on content begins, move that portion of the thread to Tech Talk.
post #68 of 97
I do not see how this proposed reorganization addresses the question of whether to have a "Coaches Corner" or "Ask a Pro" heading. I thought that was the primary question.

Furthermore, having moderators policing and sitting in judgment as to whether a particular instruction thread has become "too technical" and then arbitrarily deciding to move it makes absolutely no sense to me. A given poster or two may go all technical, then someone else gets the thread back on track. What then? A moderator moves it BACK to the original place? You seem to be proposing to open up a huge can of worms here to absolutely no purpose. The moderators surely have better things to do with their time!

Why can we not just leave the Instruction heading as it is (with reasonable moderation to keep it on track and with or without overt PMTS references) and AUGMENT it with a tightly edited or moderated ESA coaches-only forum. Why is this not a simple solution to a perceived need that loses us nothing and minimizes complexity and subjective moving of threads?

KISS indeed!
post #69 of 97
What if we were scouting an ESA coaches forum in addition to the proposed addition of a Tech Talk forum, Mike?
post #70 of 97
Not sure if I follow. Can you clarify what you mean by "scouting an ESA coaches forum"? As you know, I think establishing a separate ESA Coaches forum would fill a need expressed by many and not interfere with, or undermine, any other forums presently on Epic.

The addition of the separate Tech Talk subheading in the Instruction forum is what I have strong reservations about for the reasons I listed in post 453. Individual posts ebb and flow (depending on the writers) from very obscure language and concepts, to words and concepts which are crystal clear to any skier. It is that very free-form and democratic nature that makes it attractive! Moving a thread when a few posters get verbose simply because a moderator feels it has crossed some subjective line seems unnecessary and counterproductive. One good poster could (and does) bring a thread back to clarity. A moderator stepping in at the right moment could easily do the same. What I see is that a separate Tech Talk enterprise would cause many more problems than the ones it was designed to solve, in addition to being a waste of time and effort for the moderators, potentially confusing as posts get bounced around, and totally unnecessary.
post #71 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
What if we were scouting an ESA coaches forum in addition to the proposed addition of a Tech Talk forum, Mike?
I think this would be a great addition . Please Nolo . Make it so.
post #72 of 97
I mean that we are looking into it, Mike and Garry. For the present, we feel the need to have two forums to give our members the choice of how deep to go into the information pool here.
post #73 of 97
I didn't realize it was already a done deal. Perhaps it will work out fine. If possible, however, I would appreciate knowing your thoughts on the concerns and possible problems I mentioned in posts 68 and 70. Thanks.
post #74 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
I didn't realize it was already a done deal. Perhaps it will work out fine. If possible, however, I would appreciate knowing your thoughts on the concerns and possible problems I mentioned in posts 68 and 70. Thanks.
I think your points were right on the money. I don't see how this will work for the better.

I don't understand the resistance to creating an ESA coaches forum.
post #75 of 97
Max earlier you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If we take a good hard look at the current state of the instructional forums we find that there is a relatively small but vocal group of instructors, coaches, and skiers that debate many topics. These people are passionate about skiing and clearly enjoy sharing their opinions and poking holes in other's theories. Its fun, interesting, and hopelessly confusing. Now, I'll admit that I'm not the brightest guy around, but I just can't see how the average skier can learn much from the content here.

Maybe this forum should be renamed as follows:

Ski Instruction Discussion and Debate Zone - WARNING - Entry may cause severe confusion!

And then start a new forum that has the sole intent of teaching skiing (rather than debating technique). For that the best bet is to use a group of qualified expert coaches and the ESA coaches seem like a logical choice.
This is exactly what is intended by Tech Talk and the Ski Instruction forums. As far as an ESA Coaches forum, that could take any of a number of forms. As suggested by Weems earlier,
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Here's a tough one: How would I get a pro, who normally gets paid by a magazine to write stuff, to post here? Or how do I get a pro who is really busy professionally to spend the time to post here? I'm not knockin' these people. I respect their professionalism.
Your reply was "The answer is contained in the question: you pay them." Well one solution would be to enlist the ESA coached to post in a private forum available only to ESA students who are paying for that service and invite interested people willing to pay subscriptions to enter and participate... EpicSki has a "Classroom" forum already set up for instructors who want to discuss certification exams and conduct technical conversations off the board. That forum is easily modified to also be the ESA coaches and students forum. Such a forum would be a major benefit of attending ESA and perhaps an incentive for even more to attend.

Nothing is set in stone here. Planning and development is the purpose of this discussion. I for one am doing my best to follow your suggestions and thought I had actually come close to what you Max said on page 1.
post #76 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
I for one am doing my best to follow your suggestions and thought I had actually come close to what you Max said on page 1.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with what I'm thinking with regards to 'qualified expert coaches'. It looks to me like the current idea you are considering would allow anyone to post in the Ski Instruction and Technique forum. That is not what I was proposing and my guess is that as long as any and all 'experts' are allowed to post the info will continue to be confusing.

Your idea for the paid ESA coaching area is interesting. You might want to get fancy and make that forum visible to all members but only show the first 2 lines of a post to non-subscribers. Just enough to entice your large installed base to pay for full access.
post #77 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
That is not what I was proposing and my guess is that as long as any and all 'experts' are allowed to post the info will continue to be confusing.
That raises the question who are the true "experts" and how do we vet them.
post #78 of 97

once again

I respectfully resubmit my March 07 suggestion.....

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...eferrerid=8500

Creation of a coaches only forum could of course reopen the other technique forums to the "enemy" camp once again. I believe many enjoy the debate between the teaching philosophies.

I don't......but that doesn't mean I agree on the censorship of a group not to be named. Noise free and censored in one forum only, let it fly everywhere else.

Coaches forum. It is time....and it could be great!!!!
post #79 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post
That raises the question who are the true "experts" are and how do we vet them.
Start with ESA coaches and go from there.

What would be cool is an ESA coaches forum (to start and then perhaps approved experts if there is a need for more content) that is locked down tight. Questions are submitted by anyone (modded and then posted) and then answered by the coaches. Follow on questions are submitted and modded and will only be posted if they are on topic and reasonable questions (ie. no bating or disagreements). In a mirrored thread (open to everyone) anyone can answer as well as discuss the coaches answers. In this manner the current 'free for all' nature of Epic is preserved while giving coaches a straight forward and clean method of communicating with students.
post #80 of 97
Mike and Max, what we have here is an impasse between those who delight in untrammeled free speech and others who find it difficult to sort out the trustworthy substance from the morass of uninformed opinion in which it may be buried. If it's any consolation, people all over the Web are engaging in similar debates about this "radical democratization of the media" that the Internet has spawned. Check out "The Good, the Bad, and Web 2.0" in the July 18, 2007, WSJ Online.
post #81 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Mike and Max, what we have here is an impasse between those who delight in untrammeled free speech and others who find it difficult to sort out the trustworthy substance from the morass of uninformed opinion in which it may be buried.
Use technology to make both camps happy.
post #82 of 97
Not to change the subject, but has anyone considered a forum about teaching techniques only, with minimal technical content? Teaching is actually a more interesting subject, and more conducive to written communication, than skiing. It's also my experience that teaching skiing is not much different from teaching other skill sports, and not even completely different from teaching academic subjects. People who teach other subjects could make important contributions without losing credibility because of limited skiing experience. I'm thinking the rules would be that any teaching idea could be discussed, but any references to cosines of the edge angle or vector diagrams or such would immediately be removed.
It seems to me that there may be enough instructors here going for higher levels of certification that some discussion of general teaching theory might be valuable, and I don't think that a general teaching theory discussion would devolve into the kinds of problems that led to this reorganization in the first place.

BK
post #83 of 97
We have a classroom for teaching discussion that welcomes new participants, particularly those preparing for higher levels of certification. PM me or SSH if you would like to join.

*We ask that participants be EpicSki Supporters to access this private forum.
post #84 of 97
Max, we had planned to use technology to create a new forum. How did you envision new technology to be of assistance?
post #85 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Max, we had planned to use technology to create a new forum. How did you envision new technology to be of assistance?

Something along the lines of what I suggest in post #79.
post #86 of 97
A private forum for ESA participants is in the plan, Max. The only promise I can make is that it will be academically free.

We are straying a bit from the proposal at hand, however, which is to add Tech Talk for the minute technical debates that are of important intellectual value but are at odds with the implied and traditional purpose of Instruction & Technique which is for "trustworthy advisors" (a vague designation, it is true, but which acknowledges that such designation is earned by word of mouth, not official agency) to help clarify and simplify technique for interested epicski members.
post #87 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
A private forum for ESA participants is in the plan, Max. The only promise I can make is that it will be academically free.
Unfortunately, I don't think the 3 forum plan you are taking will fix things.
post #88 of 97
Bode Klammer, I think you read my mind.
post #89 of 97
Maybe we're not trying to fix anything, just allowing people to choose how deeply they wish to wade in the information pool at epicski.
post #90 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Maybe we're not trying to fix anything, just allowing people to choose how deeply they wish to wade in the information pool at epicski.
Not trying to fix anything? The Ski Instruction and Technique forum is nothing but a bunch of debating by those that have fast fingers.
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