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Arced turns maximize ski design to increase their performance. Arced turns maximize the skier's design (your body), elevating its performance. Arcing allows the skier to control the direction of travel (DOT) on sliding skis, the skis glide and turn. To many this is the essence of skiing.

The following quote is from Mr. Martin Bell:
"As Bolter pointed out, being torque neutral at transition will probably make it easier for those who are still learning to carve, by removing the potentially ski-pivoting force of anticipation."

www.SkiMartinBell.com

I pose this question to all- Given the premise of a torque neutral (TN) transition (at flat ski moments) as an axiom to best learn how to arc; what's next? What movements, postures, tactics, focus, skills, progressions or whatever, would you use to coach/teach arced turns to a developing skier or yourself for that matter?

The probability of TN being an axiom is not the question. TN is also not intended to persist in the later development stages of said skier. As Martin Bell says later in the same post quoted above.

"Once you reach a higher skill level, and can "manage" the torque present in an anticipated position at transition, it is probably the only way to go for SL-radius turns. Simply because there isn't time to rotate the upper body around the vertical axis on every turn.

Which is why even modern SL racers still pretty much adhere to the old "shoulders facing down the fall-line" axiom:"
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2006-sl-2.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2006-sl-2.html

This query is open to responses in mechanics and methodology. What would you teach and how would you teach it?
Thanks for the "Mr"!

I can see certain questions raising their heads.

"Railroad turns" on very flat terrain, or "railed traverses" on slightly steeper terrain? (Or whatever happens to be available...?)

Hip angulation, knee angulation, or "ankle rolling"? (Or whichever the student happens to "discover"...?)
If we do not square our stance up as we come into transition our counter-rotation (counteraction) before the transition turns into antisipation after the transition. As soon as our skis come around a bit our skis square up with our upper body and fractions later if we keep facing slightly down the hill with our upper body we end up in counter-rotation again. In this case we never really experiance the famous "upside down" position. This kind of counter/antisipation skiing is typically used when we are not carving but skidding and making small radius turns; bumps, powder and also in SL.

Lets look at Ligerty:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...l-1a-flat.html
Frame 1: previous turn low-C, upper body counter-rotation
Frame 2: transition, upper body antisipated
Frame 3: new turn high-C, upper body square stance
Frame 4: fall line, upper body counter-rotation

The frames are a little offcet but close to what I have described above. Note that Ted is in frame 3 inlined and not angulated. In free skiing this particular move is not necessary but when skiing gates it is. Otherwise you are moving your upper body too much sideways. Also, frame 3 is part of the float. Angulation needed until frame 4 where Ted is applying maximum pressure to his skis.

********************************

The real challange to carving is to hook our skis up in the carve immediatly as the skis are tipped onto their new edges. The easiest and most natural way to do that is if we come through the transition TN using counter-rotation and moving into the upside down position in the high-C part of the turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bolter I pose this question to all- Given the premise of a torque neutral (TN) transition (at flat ski moments) as an axiom to best learn how to arc; what's next? What movements, postures, tactics, focus, skills, progressions or whatever, would you use to coach/teach arced turns to a developing skier or yourself for that matter?.... ...... This query is open to responses in mechanics and methodology. What would you teach and how would you teach it?
Well I was going to stay out, since my limmited teaching experience, but you did say all!

I liken the skis cross section, _ _ ,to a spoke going accross a steering wheel on a car. To turn the car right you turn the wheel clockwise; to turn your skis right tip like so \ \ (demonstrate with hands). Tip left to go left. Keep shoulders and chest pointing down the fall line, tip the skis and balance on the edges.

This method worked very well with my daughter who had good balance skills and, although too shy to admit it, has inherited the speed daemon gene. It did not work with my son who didn't have the balance skills and had a greater sense of self-preservation. Different strokes for different folks.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 If we do not square our stance up as we come into transition our counter-rotation (counteraction) before the transition turns into antisipation after the transition. As soon as our skis come around a bit our skis square up with our upper body and fractions later if we keep facing slightly down the hill with our upper body we end up in counter-rotation again. In this case we never really experiance the famous "upside down" position. This kind of counter/antisipation skiing is typically used when we are not carving but skidding and making small radius turns; bumps, powder and also in SL. Lets look at Ligerty:http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...l-1a-flat.html Frame 1: previous turn low-C, upper body counter-rotation Frame 2: transition, upper body antisipated Frame 3: new turn high-C, upper body square stance Frame 4: fall line, upper body counter-rotation The frames are a little offcet but close to what I have described above. Note that Ted is in frame 3 inlined and not angulated. In free skiing this particular move is not necessary but when skiing gates it is. Otherwise you are moving your upper body too much sideways. Also, frame 3 is part of the float. Angulation needed until frame 4 where Ted is applying maximum pressure to his skis. ******************************** The real challange to carving is to hook our skis up in the carve immediatly as the skis are tipped onto their new edges. The easiest and most natural way to do that is if we come through the transition TN using counter-rotation and moving into the upside down position in the high-C part of the turn.
tdk6, good points. Did you see this thread, by the way: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56877 - it covered a lot of similar ground.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost Well I was going to stay out, since my limmited teaching experience, but you did say all! I liken the skis cross section, _ _ ,to a spoke going accross a steering wheel on a car. To turn the car right you turn the wheel clockwise; to turn your skis right tip like so \ \ (demonstrate with hands). Tip left to go left. Keep shoulders and chest pointing down the fall line, tip the skis and balance on the edges. This method worked very well with my daughter who had good balance skills and, although too shy to admit it, has inherited the speed daemon gene. It did not work with my son who didn't have the balance skills and had a greater sense of self-preservation. Different strokes for different folks.
Ghost, nice post.

The car steering wheel analogy, explained perfectly! I believe that is the best yet.

Your daughter, "facing down the hill" using tipping movements to turn- making RR tracks, answers Martin's question of: How to start arc coaching from torque neutral (TN).

The fan approach would be an interesting next step in your progression for her. "The fan" could progress/morph into the railed traverses. Then the traverse could be isolated to show a countered and balanced stance. Ideally, the same stance that she develops in her tipping and balancing movements of RR track turns.

I think railed traverses do not initially involve a torque neutral stance. A balanced traverse stance involves a leading of the inside half/counter. It is interesting that if you add (more) tipping of the Lower Body (LB) and counter balancing (tipping) movements of the upper body- the skis bend and turn more. If not mistaken, these are the same movement she did to first perform RR turns. Nice, it is full circle and can work both ways.

Railed traverses are not excluded as a starting point. I can see ways and benefits of using it in beginning development.
Tell me more about "the Fan". Use another thread if you like.
The Fan approach for TN arcs: Ski RR tracks in single turns to a stop. on flat terrain. First, arc to left or right from fall line start, to a stop. Next, arc from a little out of the fall line start, to a stop. Continue this to a traverse start- to an uphill arc to a stop. Notice her balanced "ready to go stance" from out of the fall line starts, require a bit more counter with each blade of the (Japanese) fan.

Keep in mind . . .You can also begin the fan from the traverse start and take it up hill. BUT, if/when you take the direction of travel (DOT) downhill- the focus and movements switch to flattening, releasing and re-centering movement. IMO this is not the approach I would use to first introduce releasing movements. I suggest going back to flat terrain for linked arcs. Use tipping movements to the left- flatten skis- tip to the right- flatten skis- and so on.

Are garlands next, or are there more fan use/variations before that?
Ghost, the fan progression is so named becuse the lines produced if overlayed on each other looks something like a fan.

Traditionally, a beginner being taught on a hill that is a little steep can be taught to traverse, then point a little more downhill and turn uphill to a stop. Progressing with each "run" to start a little closer to the fall line, untill the student is skiing from or through the fall line.

Bolter's fan is opposite the traditional, starting in the fall line and progressing to a traverse. Bolter typically standing tradition on it's head, I would expect no less from him, it just might work.
You know, I think that's what I did way back when. I started out just following the fall line and making turns to stay in it, and gradually explored turns out of the fall line and back into it just for fun. Eventually I worked up to the point where I was skiing uphill, and finally to making circles.
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