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Quad Strengthening NO Knee Bends? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Johnny, yes, its all about dogs with me so no worries, Great dog and great fence, there is one like that in Steamboat as well. Very cool.

OK, the knees, I have had chondromylacia in both knees and it's just getting worse. The surgery was on the right knee and it has healed very well with no pain in the area of the tear and surgery. The left knee has more severe wear and is quite loud when coming down stairs. THere is also something grabbing when I bend the knee, The Doc says its just wear and the patella is catching but doesn't recommend surgery. He did suggest the consideration of the gel that gets injected under the patella. I posted about that a couple of months ago and a couple of bears have done this but I am not really sure of the sucess. Do you have any thoughts on that?

oh, yes, "my dog, Finn, ate the check" I'll get another out ASAP"
post #32 of 57
Have you tried taping so that the patella tracks through the smoothest course? It never worked for me but some PT's swear by it.
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
Johnny, yes, its all about dogs with me so no worries, Great dog and great fence, there is one like that in Steamboat as well. Very cool.

OK, the knees, I have had chondromylacia in both knees and it's just getting worse. The surgery was on the right knee and it has healed very well with no pain in the area of the tear and surgery. The left knee has more severe wear and is quite loud when coming down stairs. THere is also something grabbing when I bend the knee, The Doc says its just wear and the patella is catching but doesn't recommend surgery. He did suggest the consideration of the gel that gets injected under the patella. I posted about that a couple of months ago and a couple of bears have done this but I am not really sure of the sucess. Do you have any thoughts on that?

oh, yes, "my dog, Finn, ate the check" I'll get another out ASAP"
I had the same surgery in my left knee, took some time to heal 100% but now it gives me no problems at all and I am glad I did it. Surgery is always an option in this cae, but if the gel injection can possibly work go for it (I would have if it was an offered option), you can always do the surgery later if your less invasive remedies fail IMHO.
post #34 of 57
just to clarify, The surgery was for a meniscus tear not the wear on the patella. The tear is healed and 99%. The main issue now is the wear. I have been told that in the long run, scraping and smoothing out the wear is not good.
post #35 of 57

Rooster combs, McConnell taping

Finndogius, Forgive my delay. I am in a dubious state with the baby. However, I am now feuled with green tea and ready to proceed. I believe the injections you are referring to is a technique called visco supplementation ($10 word). The worn cartilage area is injected with Hyluronic Acid (not sure of the spelling) which acts as a lubricant. The Acid is derived from rooster combs! My Dad had this done, he thinks it helps. Personally, I think it does help, but he is just delaying the inevitable knee replacement. The taping techniques that I use are called McConnell taping. See the link.
http://optp.com/media/Document_74.pdf
I have used this for the knee cap tracking problem I discussed earlier. Have you seen picures of the USPS/Discovery cycling team training? Look at their knees and you will see strips of neon blue or pink tape. This is McConnell taping. The different colors are different elasticities of tape.
Chondromalacia patella, is kind of a "garbage bag" term. It means softening of the cartilage behind your knee cap. In the medical community is it always misused to mean osteoarthritis. Softening of the cartilage is usually associated with a disease process. Likely your cartilage is damaged or frayed form an injury causing it to wear through or thin. If the cartilage wears completely through to the bone it will bleed (osteoarthritis). Blood is "corrosive" to cartilage and will start to "erode" it. Hence, you should seek to reduce the level of irritation in your knee or you will speed its deterioration.:
post #36 of 57

Rice

Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation. Lay down, put an ice pack around your knee, If you have Ace wrap wrap your knee, start below the knee and unroll up the knee. This will squeeze some fluid up yor knee towards your femoral drainage area. Elevation, knee is on a couple pillows, while you lay down. Your knee should be above the chest level, gravity assisted drainage, can counteract some of the hearts pumping pressure. If you sit, your foot may swell up. I usually ice 15-20 minutes. Allow at least 60 minutes for your knee to recover from the ice before you reapply.

Keep it simple?

You may consider an ice pack with a round cut-out to go around your knee cap. This avoids putting pressure directly through your knee cap. Also try and figure-8 wrap the Ace bandages around the knee cap. There are also devices such as a Cryo-Cuff that applys ice and compression using a ice cooler and a compression sleeve that fits around your knee. Some orthopedic surgeons use them and send them home with their patients after surgery. Maybe you can get a freebee. http://www.buyaircast.com/cryo-cuff-knee.htm
The advantage of a cryo-cuff is they can be used 24 hours if nessary. If compression is applied with one of these devices, blood and fluid are prevented from flowing back into the effected area.
When you just put an ice pack on an area, blood and fluid can still enter the area. With the ice pack left on a knee (or any part) without proper compression, the body will pump blood and fluid into the area to prevent frost bite at approx 40 mins. ie Its swells up again.
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Finndogius, Forgive my delay. I am in a dubious state with the baby. However, I am now feuled with green tea and ready to proceed. I believe the injections you are referring to is a technique called visco supplementation ($10 word). The worn cartilage area is injected with Hyluronic Acid (not sure of the spelling) which acts as a lubricant. The Acid is derived from rooster combs! My Dad had this done, he thinks it helps. Personally, I think it does help, but he is just delaying the inevitable knee replacement. The taping techniques that I use are called McConnell taping. See the link.
http://optp.com/media/Document_74.pdf
I have used this for the knee cap tracking problem I discussed earlier. Have you seen picures of the USPS/Discovery cycling team training? Look at their knees and you will see strips of neon blue or pink tape. This is McConnell taping. The different colors are different elasticities of tape.
Chondromalacia patella, is kind of a "garbage bag" term. It means softening of the cartilage behind your knee cap. In the medical community is it always misused to mean osteoarthritis. Softening of the cartilage is usually associated with a disease process. Likely your cartilage is damaged or frayed form an injury causing it to wear through or thin. If the cartilage wears completely through to the bone it will bleed (osteoarthritis). Blood is "corrosive" to cartilage and will start to "erode" it. Hence, you should seek to reduce the level of irritation in your knee or you will speed its deterioration.:
Nice info Johnny! You are a real asset to this forum, even if your dog practices weird sex.
post #38 of 57
as long as we don't have to perform with the dog for the info it's OK with me. This may sound dumb but when do you apply the Ice? What I mean is the knee hurts all the time not just when it's worked out. Should I just ice everyday? I have those neoprene braces with the whole in the center. I will look into the taping thing. sounds good.
post #39 of 57

icing

So you perform? You can ice as often as you need to. But, remember if you are just applying an ice bag or an ice wrap 15-20 minutes at a shot. Then allow your knee to recover about 60 minutes. You can reapply after. I would take a day and just relegate it to reducing the soreness in your knee. ie icing about every 1.5 hours for 15-20minutes. Your knee is going to start feeling pretty stiff. Do some gentle heel slides in between icing. Lay on your back, put your foot in a plastic bag and slide it GENTLY back toward your backside and then straighten it. Don't force it. Don't make it crack. Gentle. Do like 2-3 sets of 10. Gradually your knee should start to flex and extend better. Don't do anything stupid like run with the dog, lift boat trailers, mountain climb, etc. Try this in the evening or over the weekend if you can.
I noticed you have the IM 82. How do you like it on the east coast? I will almost certainly get a set of the 179 Public Enemies. It seems like a no brainer now. They are pretty inexpensive.
I'm going out of town a few days. We are going to Snowshoe for the Chili cookoff. It is our trial run, out over night, with the little one. I'll try and check this thread Monday.
post #40 of 57

Better way to stretch quads?

Well I was debating over starting a new thread but figured my current issue would fit nicely in with the discussion already here...

I don't need to strengthen my quads (religious tele + biker), but I have developed knee pain when I try to stretch them. It is only on my right knee, directly under the top/center of the kneecap. I'm assuming I just tweaked something, as normal movement (running, biking, etc) is fine with no pain whatsoever.

The issue arises when I try to stretch my quads. I only know of two ways, both involving the same type of movement:

1) Balance on left leg, grasp right ankle with right hand and pull back. Whether I do this with the ankle close to the hamstring or stretched away, the pain is still there.

2) Sit, extend left leg straight forward, tuck right leg back and slowly lean back on an angle, stretching through the abdominals and down through the quadricep.

I don't believe I've done any major damage, but it is driving me nuts to not be able to stretch. Any advice?
post #41 of 57
Thread Starter 
[quote=Alpinord;729209]Correction: the most recent 'Cartilage Support' product I used was MSM & Glucosamine with positive results. Any insights on MSM versus Chondroitin?...or the shotgun approach of all three?

Is that company reliable for Internet credit card purchasing?

Can y'all suggest other web places to purchase said pills? Hopefully they charge less than $5.50 for shipping!!!

BEYOND, nice exercize, will try.

Went for a 5K walk 3 days ago, and the following day my right knee (just under the cap) was sore as hell, and it felt like my knee was "locking" constantly? What up?

Thanks for all the advice, hope it helps others as well.
post #42 of 57
After posting I found the the site of Whole Health, of Golden, CO who manufactured the 'Cartilage Support' I previously used. I then ordered the Glucosamine + Chondroitin + MSM and other stuff (5 htp, etc) and received the package in two days.

Thanks again for the reminder, BTW.
post #43 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
After posting I found the the site of Whole Health, of Golden, CO who manufactured the 'Cartilage Support' I previously used. I then ordered the Glucosamine + Chondroitin + MSM and other stuff (5 htp, etc) and received the package in two days.

Thanks again for the reminder, BTW.

Looks reliable. This 5 htp, could you attest to improving moods? I´m a bit cranky these days (knee and business).

Gracias.
post #44 of 57

Locking up

Went for a 5K walk 3 days ago, and the following day my right knee (just under the cap) was sore as hell, and it felt like my knee was "locking" constantly? What up?

If the knee itself locked, ie wouldn't move, this is a symptom of a loose body (probably a piece of meniscus) wedged into the joint. You should get ths checked out.
post #45 of 57
Johnny, I sold the 82's but they are a great ski. I just bought PE's in a 179. I also own the Mojo90 which is another great ski that is happy on soft groomers and in the pow as well. I am looking forward to comparing the two this winter.
post #46 of 57
I don't need to strengthen my quads (religious tele + biker), but I have developed knee pain when I try to stretch them. It is only on my right knee, directly under the top/center of the kneecap. I'm assuming I just tweaked something, as normal movement (running, biking, etc) is fine with no pain whatsoever.

The issue arises when I try to stretch my quads.

This sounds like a quad strain to me. Do a lunge with the effected leg forward. (mimic tele turn) See if this hurts. Basically pain is the body's warning sign that somethings wrong. I would't stretch that quad for a while. Stretch everything else hams, calf, hips, low back.

Ice massage over the effected area of the quad. ie get a piece of ice in a paper towel and make small circles with it over the effected area. 6 minutes total. Make sure there are no sharp edges on the ice. It can and will cut you. You can also fill a Dixie cup up 3/4 full with water and freeze it. Peel away the paper to expose the edge of the ice. Make sure there is no sharp edge, wipe off edge with a towel. 6 minutes, small circles, figure 8's, alphabet, whatever. Only works on small areas about 2 square inches.

Finndog, you can do the ice massage to if you want. If you are applying ice over a neoprene sleeve it isn't going to be very effective.
post #47 of 57
I will try the ice message thing tonight. Sounds good. I was riding hills yesterday AM. Feeling a bit stiff but OK.

I updated my profile. I don't really ski on the east coast much now. If I lived closer to NE, then I would but I am stuck in NJ with only Pocono's close by. Elk Mountain is doable and a decent place.
post #48 of 57

PE's

Did you get a good buy on the PE's? I'm set on getting some. PM me if you have any specific questions about you knee. I have to get back to work.
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpaul View Post
Looks reliable. This 5 htp, could you attest to improving moods? I´m a bit cranky these days (knee and business).

Gracias.

My mood improves when I sleep better. As far a s a replacement for Prosac, I can't confirm. Beer, mojitos, margaritas do change my mood.
post #50 of 57
Thread Starter 
Yep!

Heard that when doing weight training must skip a day between body sections so muscles can rest at least 24 hours. I'm doing isometric quad tightening and using something like the Theraband for full leg extensions (no knee bending) for my hamstrings. Would the 24 hr. interval apply to this? I don't think so, but you're the experts.
post #51 of 57

exercise

yes and no,These exercises are designed to get you back to some of the more basic functions such as walking without a limp. If you get into more advanced training you at least want to skip one day, probably 2. For example someone training for the Tour isn't going to go all out every day. They might have one day a week to mimic a race, another day of doing interval sprints, the next interval climbs, then strength training in the gym. The workouts are constantly varying over the course of several months in preparation for the big race. Workouts are geared so the body doesn't get used to the same activity over and over. This principle is also applied to body building and weight lifting. If you work your biceps every day it will start to develop into more of an endurance muscle and get smaller, more compact. There is some research that shows the muscle fibers actually convert from fast twitch (large, power) fibers to slow twitch (small, endurance) with endurance type workouts. So...with higher level strength training designed to increase muscle size and power, you should take some rest, probably 2 days per muscle group.

Hope this makes sense.
post #52 of 57
Thread Starter 
Hola! A third Ortho (and actually my original choice) thinks I may have injured my knee cap (right knee only) without knowing it, and requested an Xray besides the MRI he saw.


He wants to inject Betamethasone acetate/betamethasone sodium phosphate in this right knee.

Any experience with this? You know, trust but verify...

Gracias!
post #53 of 57

cartilage repair

I'm not sure if this is the right thread. I'll post here anyway. You might be interested in this procedure.

http://orthopedics.about.com/od/hipknee/a/oats.htm
post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Get on a bike.
Agreed!
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpaul View Post
Hiya newfy! Was about to ask about the byciling. Good or bad? Easy or hard cycling? Fast or slow?

In-Line Skating on even roads?

What about ELLIPTICAL running machines?

Gracias!
generally, higher rpm...lower resistance is better for cardio and easier on the knees...imho
post #56 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Isometric squats are a great exercise. Pretty high level for an injury though. I use these exercises at the end of a persons program. We used to do these isometrics for the ski team. I remember being able to hold one for 20 minutes (good form) with no weight. One of the preqs for the team was to hold it for a half hour. Everyone cheated. One of the high level exercises I personally use is to put a 40 lb. bag of sand in a backpack and take my 4 dogs for a walk. (Golden retriever, chocolate lab, Aussi shepard, and a Chow-Newfie mix) Try that one!
Careful with this! You have to make sure that your stride does not land hard with a straight knee. You have to ensure that the shock of the heel strike is absorbed with some knee flexion -- it's very easy to straighten too early and absorb the heel strike with the meniscus. It's much easier on the muscles if you do it wrong -- and the tendency is to go easy on the muscles. You are after a flowing absorbing stride, NO shocks.
post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 
Don´t look forward to that stuff jzoo!

Just wandering if that BETAMETHASONE stuff really works and no major side effects (especially since I had a heart attack 10 yrs. ago).
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