EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › another binding placement question
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

another binding placement question

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
hi folks,

i need comments on boot/binding placement, please, especially from HEAD skiers..

skis = head im 78
binders = tyrolia ld12 railflex
bsl = 305mm

i positioned bof at crs with railflex at +15mm (ld12 toe @ 325mm, heel @ 285mm).....this puts boot mid-mark 2cm (20mm) ahead of mfr's mark.... seems like a lot ahead..

i can backup 2-15mm increments....

will this bof/crs mount be a good place to start, or is the mfr's mark a better starting point....

comments from members, esp. Head skiers..

thanks
post #2 of 20
I have 3 pair of Head's: 175cm 2007 i.M88, 177cm 2007 Supershape Speed and 2007 166cm i.SL RD Vist

I am in a RD 96, 27 Shell (310mm) I know Head's BSL is very short for a 27

All 3 skis are mounting per factory mounting point and ski beautifully. With that said I am used to skiing Atomic which in general has mounting points farther back then any other manufacturer.

I do not care for skis mounted too far forward, like Stockli for instance. My 166cm Laser WC SL is mounted farther forward then my head's and much farther froward then my Atomic's.

All that tail (and don't get me wrong I like tail as much as the next guy) is not right for me. But i ma a fairly forward skier, probably from many years on Volkl and Atomic. skis that you really need to pressure the tips.

Sounds like you are way too far forward at least for my taste, but to each his own!
post #3 of 20
Dont know bout the im78's but i have the im82's & was surprised to find that the factory mark is pretty close to bof for me and skis great. At least with the railflex you have the option to experiment with a variety of settings to find what works best for you.
post #4 of 20
Head iM78 in 177 length
Boot sole is 317mm
Bindings are LD12's (moved from my iM77's)

I mounted bindings per manufacturer spec for 317mm boot sole length. In the +15 position, the BOF is only a couple of mm behind CRS. And, obviously, in the 0 position I am completely factory mounted.

I plan to ski the +15 position first, and then try the 0 position. I actually expect to prefer the +15 but will ski and see. What I love about the Railflex is that you can so easily move between the three basic positions.

Now that you know where BOF/CRS is relative to boot sole, I would recommend that you mount the bindings based on boot sole and then ski in the +15 and the 0 position. If you prefer +15 in that configuration, then adjust the bindings back to your current position and see if you prefer the +15 position (now a real + 25?? ) over the 0 position (+10 relative to factory so almost the same as the default +15, if that makes sense).

I skied my first Railflex skis (iC160) in +15 all the time. For the iM77's I finally settled on the 0 position because the tail seemed so stiff. It depends so much on how you ski and what you prefer, you just need to try it and decide. Like Atomic Man sort of said, if you are used to Austrian skis then you will probably prefer the 0 position, if you have skied more French skis then you'll probably prefer the +15. FWIW (not much) hand-flexing the iM78's feels like a much more uniform flex than the iM77.

PS. If you are at 325 and 285, then you are only 10mm forward. Follow this. For a boot that is 305 you mount at 305 front and rear. For a BSL of 315 you mount 315 front and back, but the total difference in boot sole length is only 10mm, so the difference front and back is actually only 5 mm even though the scale difference is 10. So, your number of 325/285 is really only 10mm forward. However, if you have the rail settings of 325/285 and also have the rail at +15 then that is a total of +25, and that's a lot.
post #5 of 20
I only ski Head skis with Tyrolia bindings, all are set to 0. Since the skis and bindings are engineered to work together (both are Head companies I feel that the 0 position is a good place to start and will probably allow the skis to operate in their full range of capabilites without favoring any one particular style of skiing. Experimenting with + or - to get what is right for you is something only you can decide and how others have their bindings positioned should have no bearing on your settings.
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
[quote=gandalf;722831]Head iM78 in 177 length
Boot sole is 317mm
Bindings are LD12's (moved from my iM77's)

I mounted bindings per manufacturer spec for 317mm boot sole length. In the +15 position, the BOF is only a couple of mm behind CRS. And, obviously, in the 0 position I am completely factory mounted.

hi gandalf,
thanks for your reply on mounting position...
from the above info, at the 0 position on the ld 12, your BOF is 15mm + "a couple" mm behind CRS...
i guess that's the question in my mind, after reading peter keelty's BOF/CRS mounting recommendations and many others in these forums....15mm + "a couple" doesn't sound like an insignificant difference, say if one was using a fixed binding..
perhaps Head skis don't follow the "norm".
as an engineer, the balance point idea in any dynamic system is a tried and true principle....
i plan to ski both (BOF/CRS and mfr.mid-mark), find the best position, which will be the furthest forward position, set my ld12 +15 mark there, and will have 2-15mm positions to back up to for soft/crud snow and better float...
this will be a kinda pain in the a$$..
my dynastar c11 conforms perfectly to BOF/CRS setting, also my son's rx8..
...
Head has a better idea??
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfp158 View Post
my dynastar c11 conforms perfectly to BOF/CRS setting, also my son's rx8..
...
Head has a better idea??
Hi NFP,

I have the Contact 11 and my son uses a RX8. I understand that BOF/CRS is determined by both the boot & ski, but I'm curious; is the location of BOF/CRS on these models dead on in respect to the factory marks?

Michael

P.S. A well regarded expert on this subject is an Epic contributor. Contact Lou at http://www.lous.ca/

Lou's ID is race510

Also read http://www.lous.ca/techarticles.htm

Here is an example you might research: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...onster+binding
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
hi michael,

--C11, at mfr's mark BOF within 1mm (0.1 cm) of CRS.
--RX8 right on...

i guess some austrian/germam skis are different...at mfr's mark,BOF quite a bit behind CRS...

dunno.................neil
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfp158 View Post

hi gandalf,
thanks for your reply on mounting position...
from the above info, at the 0 position on the ld 12, your BOF is 15mm + "a couple" mm behind CRS...
i guess that's the question in my mind, after reading peter keelty's BOF/CRS mounting recommendations and many others in these forums....15mm + "a couple" doesn't sound like an insignificant difference, say if one was using a fixed binding..
Yes, I would say that at the 0 position, CRS is 18mm in front of the BOF mark on my boot. For me, I can't tell the difference between 15-18 but the difference between 0 and +15 is very noticeable. If my math is right, 2.5 mm is only a tenth of an inch? (2.54 cm = 1 inch = 25.4 mm). I used a sharpie to mark ball of foot on my boot, did the same re: CRS on ski. If I find that I like +15 better than 0 on the iM78, then the next step would be to compare +18 which is exactly what you say you are planning as well.

Actually, I think Head's better idea is the flexibility of the railflex to try balance points without doing any drilling. As Peter K. says, most Austrian skis have the recommended mounting point more rearward than your Dynastar's and other French skis. But there are also plenty of people that post and say that they prefer the factory mounting position. Depends on how they ski and what they are used to.

By the way, the Lou person that Michael referenced actually did the Snowbird study that Peter observed. I'm actually a little surprised that your son's RX8 is right on BOF/CRS. Fischers are usually rearward just like the rest of the German/Austrian types.
post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 

binding position

hi,

i've heard that fischer's "slalom" skis are like the french wrt binding placement.

anyway i didn't want to spend a lot of time trying to find the "right" position....is the fun in the journey?? i rather be skiing.

i'm going to start with bof @ crs, and move only rearward from there if necessary...

regards
post #11 of 20
Lou here. The fact that Head/Tyrolia bindings are designed to work with head skis is not really the issue and doesn't have any real bearing on binding position. I like what Atomicman said about his preferences and I agree that if he is used to Atomic/Volkl (both of whom have started to move some of their skis forward lately) then he would need some time to get used to a Stockli position.

That said in my experience most people like being mounted around BOF/CRS. Sometimes it takes some getting used to, but generally is worth it in that skis are more responsive and you can ski more relaxed.

The 1.5cm jump that Head makes is a nice feature but .75 move would be better.

Lou
post #12 of 20
Back seat question: Shims under the toes of my boots has me less in the back seat - but not all the way out. Would moving the binding back a tad help this situation?
post #13 of 20
I know this may sound crazy to some, but I have never mounted any bindings on any of my skis anywhere but right on the factory line. How many people have turned a perfectly good pair of skis into Swiss cheese obsessing over mounting point? I really don't think a cm or two will turn anybody into a Suparockstar.
post #14 of 20

moving the binding back

Jer:
Is right. Moving binding position won't make you a rockstar but that isn't really the issue is it? And since Jer has never tried it the point of view really has no validity.

So the answer to your question is that there is no specific answer until you know where you are mounted now and what may work best for you. Most people need to be moved forward, but it is still ski dependent, right. Because the center of boot mark on the ski is not standardized it means that a 1cm move for some Dynastars may need a 3cm move on some Atomics to arrive at the same point on the ski.

I can give some basic advice based on your ski model and your boot length. But it is still only an estimate. Backed by lots of experience, but only an estimate.

However, typical is that only park skis are mounted too far forward for regular on hill skiing and most skis are either close to balanced or need to be moved forward.
post #15 of 20
I'm in the same boat as Jer- I have done some stuff with different mounting points with demo bindings and with multiple pairs of the same ski mounted at different places, and none of them made that huge of a difference that it was worth redrilling a ski for. I'd like to know how many people who take the (lame imo) advice to mount on a railflex plate so that the binding can be moved actually just end up leaving it wherever the shop sets it.

Some people just get their jollies from all that tinkering, though.
post #16 of 20
Takecontrol618 & Jer...it's epicski. Let it be what it is.
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe View Post
Back seat question: Shims under the toes of my boots has me less in the back seat - but not all the way out. Would moving the binding back a tad help this situation?
Would it?
post #18 of 20
No, moving back on the ski will not have the same effect as 'gas pedal-ing' your boots.
post #19 of 20
"That said in my experience most people like being mounted around BOF/CRS. Sometimes it takes some getting used to, but generally is worth it in that skis are more responsive and you can ski more relaxed.
Lou[/quote]"
-------------------------

If I have understood the micro details and measurements mentioned in this thread the point of it all is that most folks probably (give me this for a moment), will ski better on skis that have bindings mounted so that Ball of Foot is exactly over the CRS (center or midpoint of the part of the ski that makes contact with snow when skiing - like in where the rubber meets the road) ?

And the issue is that many mfgs put their CRS mark on the ski behind this center or mid point in varing degrees?

Sorry to be a laggard but I just joined and I am filling fast with information and want to consider this at least to some degree on mounting bindings on a new pair of 170cm Rossi Zenith 9's. I think I have to get integrated bindings with these skis and cannot get the regular retail version of the Axial 2 due to the mounting plate on these ski's (if anyone can confirm that it would be helpful also as I got a great deal on the skis but need to source for bindings); but I could still move the binding forward to some extent.

What I would want to gain by this (other than any general easier more relaxed experience), is to facilitate my carving ability progress with less sliding of the tails in my turns.

I have no idea where the CRS is on the ski but I will have to measure it myself. If I stand them up base to base and press them together to make full contact I should be able to measure from front to back contact points and compare the midpoint to the mfg's mark. Then simply mark my Ball Of Foot on each boot with a felt tip marker. So placing the BOF felt tip mark exactly over the ski measured CRS mark is where I would want bindings mounted relative the remarks in this thread ?

I understand the +15cm / -5cm comments to relate to the adjustment or differeance from where the actual CRS on their skis and where their bindings were mounted (their BOF), and the point is to get the BOF exactly over the CRS and not +15 or whatever in front of it ?

Not that I am going to rush out and have them mounted forward to any extent since I do not know what extent would be prudent, but I thhink this deserves some research and consideration. OF rnow I want to amke sure I understood it all.

I should get a prize if I did ...

Thanks,
Tom
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
tom,
you do get a prize, not to be opened till next winter!

what you said about measuring crs and placing bof at this spot is correct..

i don't think you should go more forward from this spot...

for most skis, when you put your boot mid-sole at the mfr's mark, you'll find that your bof will be behind the crs that you marked on the ski..

austrian skis will be farther behind than french skis in general...

so i guess each person might try to find the best sweet spot, or just go with the flow i.e. put boot midsole at mfr mark and adapt...

dunno
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › another binding placement question