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Can Rotary Movements improve turn completions? - Page 5

post #121 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Earlier Bud said it was not a pre-turn.
I did not say it was a pre-turn, just "a bit like a pre-turn". Same function if I dont missunderstand this consept. The whole ide is to increase turning (whatever that is) and make the turn radius shorter.
post #122 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
How would you describe the turning mechanics involved to achieve a smaller radius than the skis sidecut allows?

b
I think that this Q is what it is all about! Very clear statement, good work. Let me use the word "crank" in this context; we crank our skis arround and that happens in Litos bump skiing, BPST and Buds suggested rotary turn. Next Q should be, how do we "crank" our skis into a shorter radius turn? How do I crank my skis arround? Sitting here in my office chair with no snow in sight I would say that I do it by a combination of a tention building counteraction movement and rotation of the femurs in their hip sockets.
post #123 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I don't think so. A "brushed carve" includes a slipping component (the skis moving sideways from their forward path). I don't believe that the path you reference includes this, does it?
A "brushed carve" simply does not use the active rotation being suggested.

Bud, when you used the term "arc" it has a specific meaning. It was posted here in an earlier time that an "arc" is created by ski with edge at greater than critical angle. This is a 100% edge and pressure carve - any rotation here WILL bust it loose.

All my posts are based on that definition and belief that you were adding rotation to the edge-locked ski.
post #124 of 214
Thread Starter 
BigE,

Do you think that adding rotation to an edge-locked ski will actually break it loose? I don't think so, I beleive it will help keep the shovel engaged better through chattery snow by pressing the sidewall of the ski into the snow.

I contest that the tail will always displace more than the tip when there is less than an "arcing" turn therefore creating a rotational movement around the pivot point. That could very well be passive and not done by any conscious effort on the skiers part.

b
post #125 of 214
It depends.

If you're talking about the moment just prior to the skis going flat, and you have been, then yes, certainly the ski will break loose.

If you're talking about applying rotary so that the edge lock is maintained, that'll show up as knee angulation. Last season we had a detailed session on that move. It was sold as a last ditch effort to save missing a gate.

Chattery snow, like frozen chicken heads? I'd use much more fore pressure as I tip the skis. The legs do rotate in support of the tipping effort, but it's secondary to the intent of tipping the ski to engage the edge.

If you're not in a pure arc, and are applying rotary, the tails may or may not displace more than the tips. What matters is the point about which the rotation is applied. We applied it just ahead of the shin with skis drifting. The result was that there was a pretty equal displacement -- how much a difference depends on where the binding are mounted -- aft and the tips displace more, fore and the tails displacemore. What you'd call active rotation or steering.

With an unconscious application, the entire body will usually pivot, not just the feet. Unless, the rotation is in support of the effort to tip the skis and the skier unaware of it.
post #126 of 214
Thread Starter 
Thanks BigE, I agree it is a secondary movement and my goal is to keep the edge biting and turning until the last possible moment once everything has moved into the new turn, then let go of the edges. This creates a strong anticipation release. Note: the upper body definitely is NOT following the feet.

b
post #127 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
BigE,

Do you think that adding rotation to an edge-locked ski will actually break it loose? I don't think so, I beleive it will help keep the shovel engaged better through chattery snow by pressing the sidewall of the ski into the snow.

I contest that the tail will always displace more than the tip when there is less than an "arcing" turn therefore creating a rotational movement around the pivot point. That could very well be passive and not done by any conscious effort on the skiers part.

b
What you are calling an edge-locked ski is actually what we call a ski that is carving. We talk about clean rr-tracks and not much or just minimum snow spraying from underneath the skis. We are talking about high balance skills and good technique and speed. We are talking about turning through tipping and letting the skis do their work. Turn radius is primarily set by ski turn radius properties such as side cut and stiffness and tuning plays a major role if we want to carve cleanly on steeper terrain. Feel free to change the word carving with some other word if you feel more comfortable.

Anyway, that kind of carving turns we typically do not need any rotation but if we apply rotation it will for sure tighten our turn radius a bit but allso very easily push our skis into a skid. This is what we in Austria and PMTS consept guys like HH is trying to avoid. We want to keep our skis in a carve and iin order to do that we need to be efficiant. Skidded turns are initiated totally in an other way. Carved turns that drift into a skid are made by easing off the edge angles in the middle of a turn typically by de-angulating, de-countermoving. But this is nothing that PMTS teaches. PMTS teaches how we should remain in a carve. Or how we should initiate a short skidded turn.
post #128 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Do you think that adding rotation to an edge-locked ski will actually break it loose? I don't think so, I beleive it will help keep the shovel engaged better through chattery snow by pressing the sidewall of the ski into the snow.
OK, before anyone gets upset with me I'm not saying this rotary turn thing doesn't work. The following are my results of being a good sport and having an open mind.

I went out and tried this today.

1) Adding small amounts of rotary didn't do anything to my arc (I couldn't feel anything happening with the ski and a comparison of tracks didn't look any different (with and without the rotary finish).

2) Adding medium amounts caused a stress feeling in my knee (I didn't like that feeling). Nothing happened to my arc.

3) Adding even more of a rotary movement broke the tail loose and I could feel stress in the knee.

I was not able to get additional ski bending or arcing with this method so clearly I am not doing it the same way Bud is doing it.
post #129 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
OK, before anyone gets upset with me I'm not saying this rotary turn thing doesn't work. The following are my results of being a good sport and having an open mind.

I went out and tried this today.

1) Adding small amounts of rotary didn't do anything to my arc (I couldn't feel anything happening with the ski and a comparison of tracks didn't look any different (with and without the rotary finish).

2) Adding medium amounts caused a stress feeling in my knee (I didn't like that feeling). Nothing happened to my arc.

3) Adding even more of a rotary movement broke the tail loose and I could feel stress in the knee.

I was not able to get additional ski bending or arcing with this method so clearly I am not doing it the same way Bud is doing it.
You have got to be joking. :

Max you are an accomplished skier and your trying to tell us that after reading probably close to a million words from advocates describing this rotary "skill" you were unable to get some sort of positive feedback on snow. :

What hope is there for the rest of us!
post #130 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post
Max you are an accomplished skier and your trying to tell us that after reading probably close to a million words from advocates describing this rotary "skill" you were unable to get some sort of positive feedback on snow. :

What hope is there for the rest of us!
Keep in mind that I was focused solely on the rotary finish move Bud has been talking about. And I did it while my edges where still edge lock carving.

I suspect this is a high level skill and I'm not there. Plus, I don't spend any time on these types of rotary movements so my ability to control the specific amount that may be required may be lacking. As I said, its clear I am doing something wrong.
post #131 of 214
Max,

The difference is in how the edge is maintained. Note that Bud has stated that the rotation is a secondary movement. You are attempting to use it as a primary movement.

If I am not mistaken, this is what is being discussed, forgive me if I am mistranslating.

Standard lingo: This move occurs after you release the upper body from it's arc; after you've set it on it's path to cross over (using OLR or retraction for example). Add knee angulation to this release move to encourage the skis to stay on edge and continue the arc and clear quickly.

PMTS: Add counter-balance during float to encourage the skis to continue the arc and clear quickly.

You should feel no stress on the knees as you have released the body from it's arc. Done correctly, the continuation of the arc due to maintenance of the edge should produce some serious anticipatory windup .
post #132 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Keep in mind that I was focused solely on the rotary finish move Bud has been talking about. And I did it while my edges where still edge lock carving.

I suspect this is a high level skill and I'm not there. Plus, I don't spend any time on these types of rotary movements so my ability to control the specific amount that may be required may be lacking. As I said, its clear I am doing something wrong.
I don't think so. Your real world results are of no surprise to me at all. At the risk of being seen as Biased, I knew the results without having skied it- Today. I spent years trying to blend leg steering into an arcing ski. To my disappointment and frustration in clinics, free skiing, racing, everywhere! Twisting torque reduces bend in the ski during an arced turn. It removes you from applying downward force to further bend the ski. The minimal additional tip pressure provided by this rotary movement is not worth the imbalance it causes. IMO.
post #133 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Standard lingo: This move occurs after you release the upper body from it's arc; after you've set it on it's path to cross over (using OLR or retraction for example). Add knee angulation to this release move to encourage the skis to stay on edge and continue the arc and clear quickly.
But that's just tipping the inside leg a bit more for a bit longer so you end up bowlegged during the release. Is that what Bud really meant? Heck, in PMTS, blue level skiers practice that move. I'm sure Bud isn't talking about that.
post #134 of 214
As I understand it, you tip BOTH skis as you vigorously drop pressure to allow the CM to continue on it's path across the skis -- nothing bowlegged here.
post #135 of 214
Bud . Aren't you using this to alter your turn shape some ? To tighten the radius as you float through a neutral postition ? I see the benefit for a course correction and you state it helps keep shovel contact in uneven refroze snow. But what else is to be gained ? Or is your point that rotary has it's uses and knowing how to apply it in the proper amounts , timing and duration is a good skill to posess ?
Rotation has to be an important skill. Manipulating rotation creates many options. But shouldn't the focus mostly be on pressure and edging and using rotation as the by product of playing with gravity ?

Max; If he states his CM is already entering the turn isn't he shaping his turn just a bit using some pressure on the tips using some rotation. I don't think it is an overt move. More so a subtle pressure movement. No wonder it hurts your knees. Be careful with that.
post #136 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
As I understand it, you tip BOTH skis as you vigorously drop pressure to allow the CM to continue on it's path across the skis -- nothing bowlegged here.
I'll try that tomorrow, but I'm not a fan of having the hips lead the feet. Its like launching your hips down the hill which I find to be old school.
post #137 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Max; If he states his CM is already entering the turn isn't he shaping his turn just a bit using some of pressure on the tips using some rotation. I don't think it is an overt move. More so a subtle pressure movement. No wonder it hurts your knees. Be careful with that.
I have tried very soft to rather hard on the rotary pressure. I simply cannot get enough pressure to the tip (without breaking away the tail) to cause any extra tip pressure.

I'll have to wait for Bud to explain the piece I'm missing and I'll try it again.
post #138 of 214
Thread Starter 
Hi guys,

Rather than repeat again all the descriptions I have given on this topic, please reread my early posts in this thread. I am not talking about increasing tip pressure, knee angulation, or preturns. All those things would involve increasing edge angle which is not where I am in the turn. Think after that phase when skis are moving toward flat from the highest edge angle of the turn.

I think Bob Barnes may have said it best. Try to imagine a continuation of the last meter of the turn by simultaneously twisting the feet up the hill and tipping to change edges. Two simultaneous movements on two different planes. This happening while the COM passes uninterrupted into the new turn.

Another image that comes to mind as an example is a kind of condensed airplane turn that happens in just one ski length.

bud.
post #139 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Hi guys,

Rather than repeat again all the descriptions I have given on this topic, please reread my early posts in this thread. I am not talking about increasing tip pressure, knee angulation, or preturns. All those things would involve increasing edge angle which is not where I am in the turn. Think after that phase when skis are moving toward flat from the highest edge angle of the turn.

I think Bob Barnes may have said it best. Try to imagine a continuation of the last meter of the turn by simultaneously twisting the feet up the hill and tipping to change edges. Two simultaneous movements on two different planes. This happening while the COM passes uninterrupted into the new turn.

Another image that comes to mind as an example is a kind of condensed airplane turn that happens in just one ski length.

bud.
The pre turn is there to help us transit into the next turn. It helps us unweight our skis without any up or down movement. It builds up pressure when we dont have it but we need it. In carving for inctance this is not necessary since we turn simply by tipping but if we do not run along our edges and especially if we have very little speed and no rebound properties available or no bumps or other piles of snow to use for unweighting then a pre turn comes in handy. Bud, is this move you are talking about annother way of helping us transit into the next turn?
post #140 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I think Bob Barnes may have said it best. Try to imagine a continuation of the last meter of the turn by simultaneously twisting the feet up the hill and tipping to change edges. Two simultaneous movements on two different planes. This happening while the COM passes uninterrupted into the new turn.
Bud, thanks for posting this. I was doing it too early yesterday. Today I grabbed SkierSynergy as he was a ballet expert back in the freestyle days and his rotary sense and skill is very refined.

The results where a bit different than yesterday in that the smallest rotary movement caused the tails to wash out for both of us. I don't know what you are doing differently but we were not able to perform this rotary finish move as you've described it. In my case my skill level may be too low, but SkierSynergy is a true expert so there must be something else that we don't understand.
post #141 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Bud, thanks for posting this. I was doing it too early yesterday. Today I grabbed SkierSynergy as he was a ballet expert back in the freestyle days and his rotary sense and skill is very refined.

The results where a bit different than yesterday in that the smallest rotary movement caused the tails to wash out for both of us. I don't know what you are doing differently but we were not able to perform this rotary finish move as you've described it. In my case my skill level may be too low, but SkierSynergy is a true expert so there must be something else that we don't understand.
Drive the uphill edge(s) of the front half of the ski(s) into the hill, increasing the pressure on the edge(s). If your edges are already locked, this will shorten the turn radius without making the tails wash out. You can *feel* the tips become more engaged when you do it right.

This is exactly what I would call "active steering".

Start out with a very subtle move. Once you've felt it, you can become more and more abrupt with it.

You'd have to consciously apply some torque to the fronts of the skis, though. That might require some philosophical soul-searching.
post #142 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Drive the uphill edge(s) of the front half of the ski(s) into the hill, increasing the pressure on the edge(s). If your edges are already locked, this will shorten the turn radius without making the tails wash out. You can *feel* the tips become more engaged when you do it right.

This is exactly what I would call "active steering".

Start out with a very subtle move. Once you've felt it, you can become more and more abrupt with it.

You'd have to consciously apply some torque to the fronts of the skis, though. That might require some philosophical soul-searching.
How you do the edges in to the snow when the edges are tipping in the other direction?
post #143 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
The pre turn is there to help us transit into the next turn. It helps us unweight our skis without any up or down movement. It builds up pressure when we dont have it but we need it. In carving for inctance this is not necessary since we turn simply by tipping but if we do not run along our edges and especially if we have very little speed and no rebound properties available or no bumps or other piles of snow to use for unweighting then a pre turn comes in handy. Bud, is this move you are talking about annother way of helping us transit into the next turn?
NNNNNo.
post #144 of 214
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Bud, thanks for posting this. I was doing it too early yesterday. Today I grabbed SkierSynergy as he was a ballet expert back in the freestyle days and his rotary sense and skill is very refined.

The results where a bit different than yesterday in that the smallest rotary movement caused the tails to wash out for both of us. I don't know what you are doing differently but we were not able to perform this rotary finish move as you've described it. In my case my skill level may be too low, but SkierSynergy is a true expert so there must be something else that we don't understand.
Cool, Max501, I am glad you have not given up on it. If your tails are washing perhaps try one of two things or both simultaneously.

First, move your balance point back toward the heel a bit as you finish, I like the feeling/mind set of moving my downhill foot forward as I apply the rotary because it does two things. It loads the tail to reduce washing and it creates a bit of proactive lead change, pulling the hips across the skis into the new turn. When doing this it is important to keep your weight on the downhill ski as you push it forward as this is what squares the hips up and pulls them into the turn.

Second retract a bit to lighten the skis as you change edges. Remember to allow the hips to move across the skis and be ready to immeadiately extend at the top of the turn to maintain ski snow contact.

hope this helps? Where are you still skiiing?

b
post #145 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
hope this helps? Where are you still skiiing?
My summer is a cross training mix 2-3 days a week at Hood and then Carvers on the other days. Keeps me dialed in.

BTW, saw Sarah Schleper running some gates yesterday. She is such a great skier.
post #146 of 214
Max, you're a mad man. You need a summer hobby dude. ;-)
post #147 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Max, you're a mad man. You need a summer hobby dude. ;-)
I've already got one: SKIING!

Its pretty cool to ski for 5 hours and then drive home to spend the rest of the day in 90 degree temps. Just nutty.
post #148 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How you do the edges in to the snow when the edges are tipping in the other direction?
I was thinking the exact same thing. Makes no sence to me.
post #149 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
NNNNNo.
TDK: Is this rotary movement there to help you transit into the next turn?
Bud: NNNNNNo

TDK: Does it help you unweight your skis witout any up or down movement?
Bud: NNNNNNo

TDK: Does it help you build up pressure underneath your skis when you dont have it but you need it?
Bud: NNNNNNNo

This makes absolutely no sence to me, sorry.....
post #150 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Drive the uphill edge(s) of the front half of the ski(s) into the hill, increasing the pressure on the edge(s).
When I want to pressure the tip of my skis I shift my weight forwards. Lean forwards in my boots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
If your edges are already locked, this will shorten the turn radius without making the tails wash out.
Even the slightest rotary movement at the hips will make the tails of your skis brake out of a carve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
This is exactly what I would call "active steering".
This is something I have been thaught to avoid, not to avoid "active steering" but to avoid trying applying any sort of rotary motion when carving. Im picturing in my head how the moving of the hips into the next turn could possible apply any sort of torque to my ski tips at the end of the turn but the reason my hips move into the next turn is because I flex the old outside ski and at this time Im not looking for any pressure build up or anything like that. Im just in the middle of the transition. If you are looking for a more grabby tip at the end of the turn you should try to tune your skis in that way. Or get new more suitable skis alltogether. Dont look at anything less than true race construction sandwich skis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
You'd have to consciously apply some torque to the fronts of the skis, though. That might require some philosophical soul-searching.
You are right, it requires some philosophical soulsearching. Works both ways.
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