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Pushing the tails........... Good or Bad

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Is it good form to push the tails of your skis or weak technique? Or just a means to an end? Does anyone teach pushing the tails or is it disguised by another name?

Sean
post #2 of 28
There may be times when pushing your tails is the only option or the best option. Generally, pushing the tails refers to a combination of weight behind the center of your feet and lateral pressure applied to the ski tails in order to get the skis to pivot around the ski tips. It's easy to do and an effective braking move, but it's less efficient and provides less control than other alternatives. Think of driving a car with rear wheel drive except that the rear wheels are mounted sideways and every time you hit the gas pedal the rear wheels kick the back end of the car 2 feet sideways, then lock up.
post #3 of 28
This question is being asked by the same guy who determined that PMTS had "deletions" and wasn't a viable learning system???? :::::
post #4 of 28
There are lots of ski terms that are used by 'the man' to confuse new skiers and keep them down. You have noticed a little discussed secret...tail pushing. It's the only 'real' way to turn, everything else is just gobbldeegook and mumbo jumbo.

A truely skilled skier can push his tails so far that they go all the way down the slope and back up 180 degrees, so instead of the tails rotating side to side above the tips, they pass below the tips and back up...a beauty to behold. balance, skill and grace.
post #5 of 28
You finally tried Jer's "cocktail", didn't you?
post #6 of 28
As somebody in the ski instruction world long ago said-

"If it weren't for the terminology, there'd be no need for professionals!"
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
You have noticed a little discussed secret...tail pushing. It's the only 'real' way to turn, everything else is just gobbldeegook and mumbo jumbo.
What???? :
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
You finally tried Jer's "cocktail", didn't you?
What ?
post #9 of 28
I love pushing the tails in a mogul field. It's the only way to get down when your skis are too damned long
post #10 of 28
As compared to lifting the tips and steering with the tails?

Every strategy has its day.
post #11 of 28
Pushing the tails is ok, even good, as long as the rest of the turn is firm.

There is nothing wrong with this question, but there might be something wrong with my answer.

I finish the turn in the bumps, and it seems natural to extend which is like pushing the tails. But you should be centered.
post #12 of 28
the original poster never mentioned bumps in his question? :
post #13 of 28
yes good point. I guess pushing the tails is kind of a copout in some sense right because you're not "carving"? OTOH in bumps maybe it's OK....

btw I think skis that let me push the tails out at the end of the turn are easier on my legs as I age.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Is it good form to push the tails of your skis

Sean
Only if they push back :
post #15 of 28
I've been known to push the tails of my skis. There are times where I've had to push them quite a lot - and very forcefully. There's nothing at all wrong with pushing the tails - they wont break! And sometimes, it's the only way to get them all into the ski rack.

.ma
post #16 of 28
As always, there are few bad moves, but there are bad habits. Pushing your tails out into a skid is a defensive move, a braking move. If you need brakes, it's the way to go. But braking is a bad habit. Skiing is about gliding, and the best skiers, like the best drivers, use their brakes sparingly, and never "ride" them. Great skiers minimize the need for braking by skiing "the slow line fast" when they can ("a slow enough line as fast as you can"--that is, without the brakes on). If you're unfamiliar with this idea, search the archives here at EpicSki for "slow line fast."

Good turns are not about braking--they're about going where you want to go, about controlling your line, rather than your speed. In that regard, pushing your tails out is, indeed, a bad move.

On the other hand, real skiing does involve braking, probably more than many skiers would care to admit. Even racers brake, just as they do in cars. Skiing is full of situations where a little judicious braking is key. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Just don't confuse it with turning!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #17 of 28
Actualy, race car drivers or bike riders do brake hard. Late braking is what separate boys from men, on a race track.

Bob Barnes post is spot on IMO, but the analogy only goes that far. I've always found close similarities between skiing and motorbiking, but for the braking part : Gravity sport vs motorized sport.

/side tracking.
post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
As always, there are few bad moves, but there are bad habits. Pushing your tails out into a skid is a defensive move, a braking move. If you need brakes, it's the way to go. But braking is a bad habit. Skiing is about gliding, and the best skiers, like the best drivers, use their brakes sparingly, and never "ride" them. Great skiers minimize the need for braking by skiing "the slow line fast" when they can ("a slow enough line as fast as you can"--that is, without the brakes on). If you're unfamiliar with this idea, search the archives here at EpicSki for "slow line fast."

Good turns are not about braking--they're about going where you want to go, about controlling your line, rather than your speed. In that regard, pushing your tails out is, indeed, a bad move.

On the other hand, real skiing does involve braking, probably more than many skiers would care to admit. Even racers brake, just as they do in cars. Skiing is full of situations where a little judicious braking is key. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Just don't confuse it with turning!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
The perfect answer. Thankyou

Sean
post #19 of 28
Hmmm, pushing the tails of the skis by weighting them, as therusty said, is doing it the hard way since the weighted part of the skis tend to bite in the snow harder than the lighter side, at any edge angle, so if you want to push the tails in order to rotate around the tips you need to push your weight forward to lighten the tails while rotating and make the tips bite.

At least that is my experience.

....Ott
post #20 of 28
I agree with Ott, and Bob.

I don't like to put on the brakes. But there are times when nothing else will do. The only time I teach it is to let people know that, when they are in the bumps they should almost never push the tails at the intiation...BUT if they come through the finish and haven't shaped and banked enough to slow down, then a quick tail push--down the hill to brake, with a quick restart of the next turn will work. I use it say one turn out of thirty, and in that turn, it's maybe the best move.
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
I agree with Ott, and Bob.

I don't like to put on the brakes. But there are times when nothing else will do. The only time I teach it is to let people know that, when they are in the bumps they should almost never push the tails at the intiation...BUT if they come through the finish and haven't shaped and banked enough to slow down, then a quick tail push--down the hill to brake, with a quick restart of the next turn will work. I use it say one turn out of thirty, and in that turn, it's maybe the best move.
Thanks for the further clarification.

Sean
post #22 of 28
Is that like shaking your tail feather?

post #23 of 28
ON groomers or anywhere you can make nice round turns no its not a good thing. Sometime though its is the best way.

Bob's car analogies arent true.

Great (race) drivers dont ride there brake but when they need to use them, they use them as hard and as short as they can. For instance a fall line chute on 30 meter sidecut skis, I will be tail pushing/ hop turning or I will be getting hurt pretty bad. ON a groomer that wide open I forget totatlly about steering and let the skis sidecut take over(yes park and ride). Just 2 extreme there are tons of skills blending in between.
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
ON groomers or anywhere you can make nice round turns no its not a good thing. Sometime though its is the best way.

Bob's car analogies arent true.

Great (race) drivers dont ride there brake but when they need to use them, they use them as hard and as short as they can. For instance a fall line chute on 30 meter sidecut skis, I will be tail pushing/ hop turning or I will be getting hurt pretty bad. ON a groomer that wide open I forget totatlly about steering and let the skis sidecut take over(yes park and ride). Just 2 extreme there are tons of skills blending in between.
Very good point

Sean
post #25 of 28
I remember reading about skiing breakable crud with the man who invented the perfect carve, Ingemar Stenmark. He man handled it with a powerful tail push.
post #26 of 28
I wish STFUYFM was on here.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
I wish STFUYFM was on here.
OK DD224, STFUYFM.
post #28 of 28
unSean,

Making rounder and more finished turns is physically easier on the legs and more balanced than shoving the tails of the skis out from under you. From an efficiency point of view, the slow line fast is good technique where tail shoving might be a good tactic in some situations.

RW
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