EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › "Re-directing" skis in the air?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Re-directing" skis in the air? - Page 4

post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Good post Uncle Louie!!
Thanks bud.

I was going to try method #3 and #4, (Picture the same two moves talked about in post # 85) but tilted like the Earth spinning on it's Axis........but with Cube out of town there was no-one here to call the doctor after attempt #3.
post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Given that....I'm going to rewrite BTS's quote above and remove the "air" element from it. (hopefully w/o changing the meaning....only the move a bit).
....

...

I suspect that the transition you see done by HH in that video is, as someone else also pointed out, based on anticipation.......
Hmm. Well I don't really relate transitions directly to Anticipation. I don't think anticipation influences a transition so much, nor does it influence the release. Regardless of whether we use a "weighted release", an up unweight, a down unweight, a pop extension, a retraction...whatever you do and whatever you want to call it to release and transition..........anticipation has no influence on it....and the release has no influence on the anticipation either other than the fact that when the unweight or lightening happens...the anticipation will begin to unwind. Or herhaps in the case of the weighted release if you think that there is never a lightening...then a "flattening" will occur which will also allow the anticipation to unwind.

Anticipation simply means that at the end of the previous turn the skier does not square up the upper body with the skis. In a short radius turn this is often thought of as keeping the upper body facing down the fallline. Anticipation will effect a pivoting action on the skis when the skis are lightened, but I don't see how it has any added effect or benefit to the actual release or transition.

nice try at mis quoting me though. ;-)
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Hmm. Well I don't really relate transitions directly to Anticipation. I don't think anticipation influences a transition so much, nor does it influence the release. Regardless of whether we use a "weighted release", an up unweight, a down unweight, a pop extension, a retraction...whatever you do and whatever you want to call it to release and transition..........anticipation has no influence on it....and the release has no influence on the anticipation either other than the fact that when the unweight or lightening happens...the anticipation will begin to unwind. Or herhaps in the case of the weighted release if you think that there is never a lightening...then a "flattening" will occur which will also allow the anticipation to unwind.

Anticipation simply means that at the end of the previous turn the skier does not square up the upper body with the skis. In a short radius turn this is often thought of as keeping the upper body facing down the fallline. Anticipation will effect a pivoting action on the skis when the skis are lightened, but I don't see how it has any added effect or benefit to the actual release or transition.

nice try at mis quoting me though. ;-)
There was no attempt to mis quote at all.....My sole intention was to take the air element out of the turn and place the skis (with any amount of weight the skier wished) on the snow. I think you didn't catch my meaning in the rewrite. I agree that the release and anticipation are separate moves/concepts, and don't have a direct effect on each other. The release (any type) is the catalist for the creation of the new turn. Depending on the degree to which one anticipates in the first turn has a major effect on the radius of the second turn following the release.

.......now seeing as how you brought up this other part..........

The only thing I can come up with in that grey area which links the first turn to the next IS the result of anticipation. From turn 1 to turn 2.....the edges change....the dominant ski changes....the pole plant changes sides....the hip in relation to the skis changes sides etc etc etc.

Anticipation begins at the end of turn 1 and its effects continue into the start of turn 2. It is the only move I can come up with that bridges the gap connecting the end of the 1st turn into the beginning of the 2nd.
post #94 of 110
well the interesting thing about Anticipation is that during the end of the previous turn, you are winding up the anticipation, not really "using" it yet. In some ways we should almost use two different definitions for what happens during the end of the last turn and what happens in the beginning of the next turn as we unwind. There is wind up and unwind. The whole "skill" is often referred to as anticipation..true.....but there really are two distinct phases to it.

Just wanted to make sure we don't confuse anticipation with release mechanisms. Anticipation doesn't cause a release or transition to happen. Anticipation really just effects some pivoting action on the lower body POST release.
post #95 of 110
Very good input scootertig!

If people wonder what all this air-time information has to do with 'general skiing' consider that every effect produced in the air is an effect that can (and will) affect our general skiing. We are affected by all sorts of angular momentums, some of which assist us and some that mess us up. While many such momentums get 'sunk' into the surface - they still affect our ski/snow interaction.

BTW sjjohnson... when running to change the Earth's rotation, can we ever really return home by circumnavigation...? I mean, we can run thru home - but we can't stop there without the Earth returning to its original rotation, right? Guess it means that if we 'change the world' - we really can't go home again.

.ma
post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
well the interesting thing about Anticipation is that during the end of the previous turn, you are winding up the anticipation, not really "using" it yet. In some ways we should almost use two different definitions for what happens during the end of the last turn and what happens in the beginning of the next turn as we unwind. There is wind up and unwind. The whole "skill" is often referred to as anticipation..true.....but there really are two distinct phases to it.

Just wanted to make sure we don't confuse anticipation with release mechanisms. Anticipation doesn't cause a release or transition to happen. Anticipation really just effects some pivoting action on the lower body POST release.
Anticipation and anticipation release are the terms I am familiar with which differentiate before edge release and after.

b
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Anticipation and anticipation release are the terms I am familiar with which differentiate before edge release and after.
works for me!
post #98 of 110
Very Interesting thread.

I didn't read all the posts. But here is an example of several directions/forces at work. People have described this as "defying the laws of physics". But IMHO it just shows what can be done while in the air, and what not (you decide if I'm right):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dzZiAnCWXo

Btw. you can do "shifty 180s" (i.e. doing 180 in the air without any direction changes/winded up rotations from the take-off) if you're really flexible/can counter-rotate very much, in a way that you do an overexecuted "twister" by counter-rotating your upper body heavily, and letting your skis rotate almost 180 (to another direction), then "releasing" the upper body back, and continuing to finish the 180. The key is just keep the skis where they stayed at the peak of the first "twister" rotation (=not easy),i.e. not letting the skis come back straight while your upper body rotation releases. I've seen this done live. My guess is that this is easier with skis on, the weight of the skis help with some "continuity of mass"(?). But I'm pretty sure you could do the similar trick e.g. on a trampoline.

And Fujas' increbidle save in the above video is based on this same trick/phenomena...although he has to do (in addition) some very heavy hand winding to get the change of rotation done. I'm not sure but also the fact he is corked (=more sideways than upright) seems to help him change the direction of the spin? Seems like he almost uses the weight of the boots&skis to help him recover?(could it be so?)
post #99 of 110
Wow!! that was sick! I wouldn't try to explain the physics of that one...

b
post #100 of 110
There you go! The power of rotation and counter-rotation! Wow! Sweet!
post #101 of 110
OMG that is sick.
post #102 of 110
:I guess that's the ultimate demonstration of this effect:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
what you're seeing is an instinctive use of angular momentum and "split rotation." They're trying to change the angular momentum of the bulk of the body by rotating the hands.
Either that, or Fujas is actually a superbeing from another dimension, whose body is composed entirely of anti-matter.
post #103 of 110
I don't know that it is relevant to skiing, but it is possible to get a net rotation in the air without violating the laws of physics (conservation of angular momentum). The two mechanisms both involve split rotatin: 1) spread out the part you want to hold still (move arms or legs apart) and pull in the part you want to move more, then swap roles and reverse; or 2) rotate one part against the other, change their relative orientation (e.g. bend at the waist) and then undo the relative rotation.

In both cases, you can start and end without rotation but end up pointed in a different direction. Unfortunately it takes way too long to be useful.

On the other hand, that is basically how cats land on their feet. THere are some good video and photo sequences of this on the web.
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
I don't know that it is relevant to skiing, but it is possible to get a net rotation in the air without violating the laws of physics (conservation of angular momentum). The two mechanisms both involve split rotatin: 1) spread out the part you want to hold still (move arms or legs apart) and pull in the part you want to move more, then swap roles and reverse; or 2) rotate one part against the other, change their relative orientation (e.g. bend at the waist) and then undo the relative rotation.

In both cases, you can start and end without rotation but end up pointed in a different direction. Unfortunately it takes way too long to be useful.

On the other hand, that is basically how cats land on their feet. THere are some good video and photo sequences of this on the web.
I call it Grabbing Gravity.
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
2) rotate one part against the other, change their relative orientation (e.g. bend at the waist) and then undo the relative rotation.
There may be some of that in the Fujas trick, as his axis of rotation appears to change when he reverses his spin.

The way the cat pivots one half of its body against the other (more fixed because of spread-out legs) part, then rotates the second part against the first, is slightly reminiscent of the dual fulcrums ("fulcra"?) of the "independent leg steering" theory of skiing - as in the Bob Barnes "dual bar stool" analogy.
post #106 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
Either that, or Fujas is actually a superbeing from another dimension, whose body is composed entirely of anti-matter.
I'm pretty sure about that.

Btw. every year (for a long time) I've set a goal to learn "360 rewinds". IMHO that's one of the coolest looking trick out there, and not the most common. I've never had the sack to try one though.

But I guess I've got the essential tip from this topic: the key is to "overturn" the upper body at the start of the spin -> after that it's easier to separate upper and lower body, and kind of let the legs "behind" the rotation.


Now I just got to sack up and try one in real life (and wait for the very soft conditions...)
post #107 of 110
Be sure to get that attempt on video for us!

b
post #108 of 110
I'm not going to read this whole thread to make sure no one has posted this yet, but here go's, this vid is interesting.

http://www.jakecast.com/2007/06/15/p...ert-90-to-270/
post #109 of 110
lol I send that to jake cause i saw it on epic, jake posted it up on TGR Maggot repost on epic. This thread has officially become full circle.

BTW the photo on jakes site are my work.
post #110 of 110
I guess I suck at the internet.

Sorry for the repost.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › "Re-directing" skis in the air?