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A Tale of Three Turns - Page 12

post #331 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
I understand your point about more people showing up twisting than tipping and it is often a similar statement made by the "save the world from rotary" contingent. Well, maybe I understand it! Are these people even trying to make that arc-arc turn? My impression on the slopes is that most are not even trying to make the turns the expert skiers on Epic hold in their minds eye - and, they will never make those turns if they never intend to! Sure, if they're deficient in their ability to tip, you teach them that skill.

Despite all the arguing about the dreaded steering, to me it is more about the skiers intent and ability to apply the appropriate skills to support that intent. How can any skill in skiing be bad, so long as you have the ability to apply it (or not apply it) effectively as the circumstances require?

Best,

Chris
Well I see two dimensions to this intent thing. We have our situational intent in the moment, and we have our long term intent for our skiing overall. If we intend to take our skiing forward in refinement and skill, we should look at the idea that ski geometry is there for a purpose and explore that purpose to it's extreme. We should also take all the dimensions of our skiing to their respective extremes, so that we become a multidimensional skier. Maybe then our skiing will become a formless art, responsive, relaxed and flowing, no matter what the situation at the moment is. No separate twisting, tipping and pressure management. We are balanced and relaxed in the moment, our movements are in harmony within ourselves and the situation, and we feel totally alive with everything, flowing down the mountain.

The other side of the twisting coin in people showing up for lessons, are the ones we now see showing that are totally at the mercy of their ski's sidecut. they have learned to rely so much on their sidecut that they have trouble shaping their turns.

Over reliance in one dimension, direction or skill will always hold us back in the long run, in our journey towards the formless art. We can take a lesson from Bruce Lee here. Bruce would have made both the tippers and the twisters mad, because he held that the true art that is able to respond to all situations is formless. trouble is Bruce Lee, approached it with such intensity and desire to prove himself right that he burned out way to young. This is why modern tai chi chaun translates to the "the supreme ultimate". It should be a humble, personal, internal journey towards the formless art.

Skiing is a lot like this for me. It requires that we practice all our forms, do them with a mindfulness and desire to refine them, and do our partner work humbly, between each other and with the mountain. When I really let myself (I dissapoint myself here alot), every situation is a learning opportunity.

Don't mistake paradise for that home across the road, or rather, don't mistake the formless art for that dojo across the road.

I think I got carried away here Chris.
post #332 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
The other side of the twisting coin in people showing up for lessons, are the ones we now see showing that are totally at the mercy of their ski's sidecut. they have learned to rely so much on their sidecut that they have trouble shaping their turns.
Ric, What are the percentages between the two that you see? Generally,based on your experience which type of skier is easier to take to the next level?
post #333 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Ric, What are the percentages between the two that you see? Generally,based on your experience which type of skier is easier to take to the next level?
Well this really comes down to the individual student motivation, when I look at my MSU students who fit both sides of this coin, and are upper level skiers skiing very upper level terrain. Changing habitual movement patterns is hard work. It takes a willingness to practice and experiment in areas that are unfamiliar, on both sides of the coin. But we know that already.

If you have to pin me down I would say that the twisters are generally more motivated because they want more, and they see it happening in other skiers. They tend to be older as well. Whereas the ineffective tippers, (who generally tend to be younger, and lack steering skills as well) think and feel they already have it. Both tend to be one trick ponies though, and generilizations are only good for general discussions. Individuals require specific teaching solutions, and I try to always approach it this way, yet still bring the whole group along as well. Some don't want to effect major changes, they just want to refine and improve what they already do. this throws it's own kind of teaching challenges into the mix. What do your experience tell you?
post #334 of 566
Thanks to MichaelA posting in this thread

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56289&page=2


Originally Posted by Slatz
At the 1988 Acadamy George Twardokkens said that no one he knew of had been able to make a skiing machine.

1988? Well, perhaps people might find this interesting.

.ma

(or this from nl)


This is a link to a robot skier which demonstrates perfectly the results of limiting movements in the legs, the conclusions of the designer are

Quote


Shiro Shimizu (University of Fukui)


5. Inner rotation of the outside femur in a turn showed that it is the most important element for a turn in the skier's movement, thus having application to skiing instructions: from the femur rotation model, the combined model of the femur rotation with the flexion and extension of legs (Fig. 7), and the combined model of femur rotation with an adduction and abduction in the hip joints (Fig. 13). Moreover, as shown in Fig. 14, it was shown clearly that the system of the fundamental skiing postures and turn techniques could be summarized by aspect of femur rotation.

Fig. 13 A combined model of femur rotation with
adduction and abduction in the hip joints
End Quote

That is his opinion based on his construction, i.e. adding femur rotation where previously it had none, through these various stages of design and noticing the improvements of turn shape and accuracy, (my words not his).

This robots earlier rigidity shows exactly why we have to have femur rotation, it is clearly used by all humans. Understanding and using it correctly must form part of fundamentally correct skiing instruction.

Sean


post #335 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
What do your experience tell you?
I haven't taught in the last 5 years. So I was curious now that shaped skis are the norm what was showing up at the schools.

From my observations on the hill, twisters far out number tippers. I suspect thats because it does take more skill to tip. That would lead me to the conclusion (mindset notwithstanding) that it is far more difficult to take a twister to the next level than a tipper.
post #336 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I haven't taught in the last 5 years. So I was curious now that shaped skis are the norm what was showing up at the schools.

From my observations on the hill, twisters far out number tippers. I suspect thats because it does take more skill to tip. That would lead me to the conclusion (mindset notwithstanding) that it is far more difficult to take a twister to the next level than a tipper.
Now I'm talking about upper level skiers here. My experience bears out that it is motivation that determines final outcome and the speed of the journey. i agree that there are more twisters on the mountain than tippers, but many of the twisters have far more years of experience in skiing and already ski at a high level. If they are motivated to change then there is no reason that they can't change as quickly as any one else.

Is it more difficult for them? Not if they are willing to slow down and return to basics IMO. Otherwise old habits die hard. But this can be said for all ineffective movements we possess.
post #337 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
Now I'm talking about upper level skiers here. My experience bears out that it is motivation that determines final outcome and the speed of the journey. i agree that there are more twisters on the mountain than tippers, but many of the twisters have far more years of experience in skiing and already ski at a high level. If they are motivated to change then there is no reason that they can't change as quickly as any one else.

Is it more difficult for them? Not if they are willing to slow down and return to basics IMO. Otherwise old habits die hard. But this can be said for all ineffective movements we possess.
That is my experience as well. I work with intermediate and advanced skiers almost exclusively. They all think thay are carving, but all of them twist their skis to build pressure before they engage the edge. I don't think telling those guys to tip helps much at all. They think they are doing that already.
I make them ski round turns with a perfectly flat ski for a long time, so they know what a flat ski feels like. I get them to to do perfect traverses so they know what a carving ski feels like. I get them to add back just a little edge to their skidded turns, and to flatten their skis while they are traversing, just enough to feel the edges release. I never use the terms rotary, counter or angulation or any ski instructor jargon.
That sounds like a lot, but mostly we just ski. The guys who want real detailed explanations all give up on it, but I don't think any of them have progressed as much as the ones who stay with me.

BK
post #338 of 566
Try javelin turns. Make sure they lift the new inside ski before they start turning. Its very difficult (not impossible) and awkward to twist that new outside ski while standing only it. They fill find it much easier to tip it to get it turning.
post #339 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Try javelin turns. Make sure they lift the new inside ski before they start turning. Its very difficult (not impossible) and awkward to twist that new outside ski while standing only it. They fill find it much easier to tip it to get it turning.
I know that drill, but I don't use it much anymore.
I think javelin turns are about getting different gross movements going. I've been more concerned about getting them to feel what's going on with the skis. I find most of the skiers I work with try to get up on a high edge all at once, but to do that they need to twist their skis to build pressure. What they need to learn ishow the ski feels as the edges release and re-engage. They need to learn to get just enough edge to start the turn, then they can add as much edging as they need or want. After that, I think the right movements develop pretty easily.

BK
post #340 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I haven't taught in the last 5 years. So I was curious now that shaped skis are the norm what was showing up at the schools.

From my observations on the hill, twisters far out number tippers. I suspect thats because it does take more skill to tip. That would lead me to the conclusion (mindset notwithstanding) that it is far more difficult to take a twister to the next level than a tipper.
It is so easy to tip, virtually all the skiers I know tip, due to it being easier than twisting/rotating.

All good skiers will have both skills to use as and when necessary.
post #341 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
I agree with most of that, and it sounds a
The only technique difference I have with Clendenin's approach (as you have described it) is that I rarely ask anyone to get a turn going by deliberately shifting weight between the feet. I don't do that for the same reason I don't talk about rotary: They have all learned to do too much of that in their own.

BK
Language problem on my part.
Clendenin didn't teach weight shifting, he just demonstrated that skis really will turn without a lot of effort. One drill on a gentle slope was to have students take some weight off of one ski and see how you would make a nice easy turn without actively "edging" the other ski. It just sorta happened. I think the point was you can turn a ski without a lot of brute force or high edge angles.
post #342 of 566
Here is an interesting article courtesy of Ron LeMaster

http://www.ronlemaster.com/articles/parallel-shins.pdf

Posted November 2006

Here is a Quote "Trevor Wagner, head women’s World Cup tech coach for the U.S. team, points out that they both turn their outside knee inward at the initiation of the turn in order to get early edge pressure and to get the outside ski carving by the time it enters the fall line."

I think this just about says it all as you cannot turn the knee without Rotary/twisting.

Sean
post #343 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
It is so easy to tip, virtually all the skiers I know tip, due to it being easier than twisting/rotating.
It could be that you are skiing with a higher level of skier than I typically see on the slopes. What I have noticed that most people do not carve the top of the turn. Instead they push the skis out to the side and up onto edge. This movement will get the skis up on edge for the bottom of the turn but it throws out the top of the turn which is a key component of speed control.

Tipping at the top of the arc is difficult for many people because it requires a high level of balance as the skis are tipped upside down with the bases face up the hill.
post #344 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
It is so easy to tip, virtually all the skiers I know tip, due to it being easier than twisting/rotating.
I'll agree with that.
post #345 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
I think this just about says it all as you cannot turn the knee without Rotary/twisting.
In the article you referenced I'd put that noted knee movement into the tipping category as the movement's purpose is to put the ski on a higher edge angle.
post #346 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
It could be that you are skiing with a higher level of skier than I typically see on the slopes. What I have noticed that most people do not carve the top of the turn. Instead they push the skis out to the side and up onto edge. This movement will get the skis up on edge for the bottom of the turn but it throws out the top of the turn which is a key component of speed control.

Tipping at the top of the arc is difficult for many people because it requires a high level of balance as the skis are tipped upside down with the bases face up the hill.
It seems to me, that the way you and many others see it is way too complex.

Even WC racers barely tip at the top of the arc so that their basses are facing up the hill, that is the point of transition, from 1 edge to the other edge so hardly any base would by pointing up the hill.

In your description of a turn you would be doing very high speed u turns. (Pun! Maybe)

Success in anything, comes from taking the seemingly complicated and making it as simple as possible so that the objective is completed as intended.

That means to carve a pure turn at speed you just roll your thighs from edge to edge as fast as needed, nothing more required as the Un/Subconscious takes care of the rest.

Sean
post #347 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
In the article you referenced I'd put that noted knee movement into the tipping category as the movement's purpose is to put the ski on a higher edge angle.
Yes, so you agree that tipping is rotary movement, due to the mechanics of our bodies.

As stated earlier, it is just words, the mechanics do not change.

Sean
post #348 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean
It is so easy to tip, virtually all the skiers I know tip, due to it being easier than twisting/rotating.

I'll agree with that.
__________________I'll agree with that.
\

If it was easy to tip the skis on edge and stay balanced while moving then we wouldn't be having any of these discussions.
post #349 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Yes, so you agree that tipping is rotary movement, due to the mechanics of our bodies.
Femur rotation can be seen in twisting and tipping. But, the outcome (what happens at the foot) can be very different. I like to think of active rotary as the movements that twist the foot into a new direction rather than putting the foot up on an edge.
post #350 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Even WC racers barely tip at the top of the arc so that their basses are facing up the hill...
:
post #351 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Femur rotation can be seen in twisting and tipping. But, the outcome (what happens at the foot) can be very different. I like to think of active rotary as the movements that twist the foot into a new direction rather than putting the foot up on an edge.
Yep!
post #352 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
:
My point exactly.

What is uphill exactly? is it slightly uphill or a lot uphill? or across the fall line or is it perpendicular to the point of direction?

Sean
post #353 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
What is uphill exactly? is it slightly uphill or a lot uphill? or across the fall line or is it perpendicular to the point of direction?
OK, now I see what you were getting at. This weekend I was lucky enough to work with a coach that has something like 15 years of experience working with the US Ski Team. Guess what, he had us working on getting upside down! The top half of the turn (upside down) is key for controlled arc to arc skiing.

IMO, this takes far more skill than twisting the skis out to the side.
post #354 of 566
there are a number of skills which need to be executed properly in order to get upside down during the top half of the turn (note UnSean, we are not talking about only the very start of the turn, we are talking about being upside down before hitting the fallline/apex....the earlier the better).

The skills involve not only skills used at the moment, such as tipping, but it involves having done certain things during the transition and before to set yourself up for being upside down and they involve skills which prevent you from falling inside in the wrong way(yes, there are good and bad ways to be upside down), so that as you pass through the falline and finish the turn, all is setup for what comes next.

For example, if you don't angulate quite enough, then its likely you will fall inside and during the bottom half of the turn you'll lose your outside ski perhaps or perhaps scissor the skis and find yourself in the backseat for the next transition.

This is just one example of a number of skills which need to be done and there is a continuum. what you do earlier effects what you do now which effects what will happen later.

UnSean, Its just not as simple as saying, turning is easy, just tip by rotating your femurs. Yes, your femurs rotate in the socket when you do a lot of things, including walking down the street. So what? That tells you almost nothing about how to go through this continuum and do all the right movements for an ideal ski turn.
post #355 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
OK, now I see what you were getting at. This weekend I was lucky enough to work with a coach that has something like 15 years of experience working with the US Ski Team. Guess what, he had us working on getting upside down! The top half of the turn (upside down) is key for controlled arc to arc skiing.

IMO, this takes far more skill than twisting the skis out to the side.
You actually feel that slide from 1 edge to the other using your thighs is difficult!! Hmm

It is irrelevant to the position on the slope, the turn takes place at the point YOU decide it is needed, you have been duped!

Try to stay out of trance when you are having a lesson and use some active reasoning, start looking from other perspectives it is a play on words.
post #356 of 566

PREPARATION Stance (UDT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
OK, now I see what you were getting at. This weekend I was lucky enough to work with a coach that has something like 15 years of experience working with the US Ski Team. Guess what, he had us working on getting upside down! The top half of the turn (upside down) is key for controlled arc to arc skiing.


If there is one prerequisite movement/alignment for arc2arc skiing, this is it. There is no substitute. No twist, no steer or skid before engagement/deflection. This is not complicated but is missing or
has no equivalent in ATS. Upside down is a cornerstone of ARC TECH and (OMG PMTS. IMO, that puts me in darn good company.
post #357 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter View Post


If there is one prerequisite movement/alignment for arc2arc skiing, this is it. [The top half of the turn (upside down) is key.]There is no substitute. No twist, no steer or skid before engagement/deflection. This is not complicated but is missing or
has no equivalent in ATS. Upside down is a cornerstone of ARC TECH and (OMG PMTS. IMO, that puts me in darn good company.
I haven't heard the turn "upside down" before, but PSIA guys do it all the time. They called it "show the bases."
I followed a PSIA examiner down through Highlands Bowl about 5 years ago. He had skis with orange day-glo bases. Every time he changed edges the snow lit up like a neon sign. He was upside down (in a good way) on a 45 degree pitch!

BK
post #358 of 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter View Post


If there is one prerequisite movement/alignment for arc2arc skiing, this is it. There is no substitute. No twist, no steer or skid before engagement/deflection. This is not complicated but is missing or
has no equivalent in ATS. Upside down is a cornerstone of ARC TECH and (OMG PMTS. IMO, that puts me in darn good company.
I would wager there have been quite a few skiers making arc to arc, "upside down" turns long long before ARC TECH or PMTS. Come on now, step down slowly off the pedestool before you hurt yourself

b
post #359 of 566
Of course. I don't think anyone has claimed that PMTS or Bolter invented upside down-ed-ness. calm down. But in recent years, they seem to be focusing on it more than some others outside of the race community.
post #360 of 566

Look, I am in the public eye again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I would wager there have been quite a few skiers making arc to arc, "upside down" turns long long before ARC TECH or PMTS. Come on now, step down slowly off the pedestal before you hurt yourself

b
My comment was made to point out the missing element in ATS of a critical move required to ski arc2arc. I have been a member (at the mercy of) PSIA since 1980. I have the right to point out any shortcomings or omissions that I see.
Bud, My pedestal is not lofty, no need to climb down, it is a short step.
ARC TECH has been available to you for almost a year and I have yet to heard your constructive comments or criticism. I understand if it seems to be an exercise in bolstering my ego to you, it's not.
The entire point . . . is the lack of PREPARATION, upside down, counteracting, counterbalancing in all three turns demoed by BB, remember?
BTW, was your spelling "pedestool" intentional? That is too funny, thanks for the laugh. I fixed it for you in your quote.

Barking from the summit of a pile of my own crap, Bolter.
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