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Rude Race Teams - Page 3

post #61 of 122
Good post oldtimer, all true. Ski racing isnt something you do on the weekends to annoy the weekend warriors.

ps. CP, you dont want it on the hill.
post #62 of 122
It's hilarious how this post has taken a turn.

It started out as a post about a certain race team acting iresponsibly on the hill and in liftlines and turns into something else.

Nobody is saying that race programs are not good for kids. Nobody is saying that coaches don't work hard and put alot of time in.

You coaches and ex racers are looking at it from the other side so no matter what you will stick up for the racers and that's understandable.

Let's stop clouding the issue.

It comes down to skiers respecting other skiers on both sides of the fence.
post #63 of 122
Originally posted by CP:
I don't like the vacationers up there either (own a condo and am up there alot in the off-season too when we're the only car in sight).
Originally posted by CP:
From Cambridge
Thanks for validating my decision to leave New England so many years ago.

[ January 28, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Harry Morgan ]
post #64 of 122
Originally posted by Scalce:
Let's stop clouding the issue.

It comes down to skiers respecting other skiers on both sides of the fence.
I think that about says it all. If the kids are respectful and in turn repected, all is good.

CP...Your attitude makes me want to gag. If you have a bitch take it to management. With you current outlook and behavior, my crystal ball sees an ass-beating in your near future.
post #65 of 122
The original post did target 'race teams' and in fact the topic is 'race teams' not specifically the Okemo, Stratton, Killington School, Vail, NSA... the list goes on. A racer, when out of the team jacket, speed suit, shin guards, and other armor, is the same as any other skier on the mountain, accept they tend to ski at a much higher level than other skiers on the hill. Its true that the skills of a racer apply mostly to groomed snow, but that is in fact what we are discussing... don't think that those skills that the racers are taught dont apply all over the mountain though, because they do. I find it upsetting that people on the mountain can have such a hatred for a group of athletes that spend 90% or their time on the snow training to be better and faster. Those free runs you see them on, might be their only run of the day where they arent working a drill or skiing gates. If the kids want to let lose a little i dont blame them. They arent like the average kid that goes out on the snow to goof off all day. the junior teams go out to train, a whole day of free skiing is a joy to most young racers. Most of them work harder and put in more time than any recreational skier, and deserve the same amount of respect as any other skier because of that.

Try to see things from their point of view. Recreational skiers are in no danger from having these kids on the hill. The last thing most of the young racers i ski with would want to do is hit a recreational skier. Their coach would hit the ceiling, whether it was the racers fault or not. If you happen to speak with a coach and point fingers, you may get no response from the coach because they realize that the complaint is not an issue. Often, recreational skiers fly off the handle over non issues.


post #66 of 122
I don't think anyone here is stating that all kids on race teams are this way, but just like with anything else one or two idiots can make a group of 50 great kids look bad. I think the real issue here is when CP said they were buzzing beginners.

1. Why would anyone who loves our sport want to do something to a person who is trying it out to see if it something they want to do? Stopping to tell them how good they are doing or riding the lift with them to just talk would go a long way.

2. Why are racers even on the same slope as beginners? CP were the racers on the greens? Or were the beginners on the blacks? If the beginners were in the wrong, tell them that it is too dangerous and to take a lesson or two before coming back over. If the racers were on the green. why??? To show the newbies how cool they are? If the racers say that they need a challenge, tell them to hike to the top of one of the double blacks in Canada or out west. They won't be too cool for long.

Just my 2 cents.
post #67 of 122
Originally posted by Ullr:
If the racers were on the green. why???
Good chance that a group a racers on a green run heading for a lift are lapping from a course.
post #68 of 122
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
The original post did target 'race teams' and in fact the topic is 'race teams' not specifically the Okemo, Stratton, Killington School, Vail, NSA... the list goes on.
Nobody said that the thread was not directed at race teams.

It is directed at race teams and that's obvious.

Once again you are changing the issue.

Read the original thread.

The issue is large "groups" of racers acting irresponsibly.

I could care less about one or two racers zooming down a run.

It's when 15 of them do it.
post #69 of 122
I’m going to weigh in on this topic too since it is of ‘professional’ interest to me. I am a patroller at my local resort and deal with these issues every time I put on my uniform.

Our local race team is notorious for causing our guests some angst. They do ski fast, they do cause accidents and they do ski irresponsibly. However to be fair, that is not more or less than anyone else on the hill either.

I would like to point out that the coaches posting on this thread need to look at things from the ‘recreational’ skier’s point of view. That view is of a group of high-speed skiers charging down the hill at you, threatening to choose the same line as you, and the intersection thereof. Ok, so the racers have skills far beyond those of the average skier, but simple physics state that they CANNOT stop on a dime. The average skier is unpredictable in their turns and the snowboarder is even more so with their ability to instantly change tracts. When you mix these two, someone’s going to get bent out of shape…literally or figuratively!

I’m not saying that people should not ski fast. They can, and should be able to ski any way they prefer. However when entering a trail, they must accurately assess the risk involved to themselves and others and make the right decision and ski accordingly.

Coaches are you listening? You should be teaching these youngsters to have honor and respect for everyone, of whatever ability level, and ski for the conditions and crowd density. By defending the racers actions, saying they have superhuman skills, and complaining that it’s the other skier’s fault that they cannot ski to the trail or conditions, you are condoning their behavior, whether real or perceived, and encouraging reckless skiing. Everyone has equal rights to ski the whole mountain no matter their ability level. And everyone has the same responsibility to avoid the skier below while always skiing in control.

Many people admire these racer’s for their ability and enjoy watching them race. One of my daughter’s hero’s is a ski racer. They are held up as role model’s for the next generation. Yet my perception, from the some of the coaches posts on this thread, is that you are teaching the kid’s that they are better than everyone else on the hill and therefore do not have to give the same respect to fellow skiers. As a parent and a patroller, I find that distasteful and if it continues would join in efforts aimed at limiting racing teams.

What is a possible solution to this problem? I don’t know, but I have some ideas that would help keep the race teams on the hill.

1.Teach the racer’s ‘Your Responsibility Code’ and make them follow it!
2.Show them alternate trails on the mountain to avoid the congested and SLOW skiing areas.
3.Show them what responsible skiing is when on a crowded trail. Hmmm…on second thought, have someone else, like a patroller show them.
4.Bribe the resort management with large sums of money to ignore all the guest complaints and continue to renew your charter to race on the hill.

Flame away!
post #70 of 122
-- no flame from me-

we teach and preach the code. If a kid who is part of a training seesion is out of line- talk to the coach and/or pull the ticket. I suspect that if you are being fair, the coach will be happy for the help controlling a problem child

after training, pull the pass with a requirement that a parent or coach come to the office with the miscreant when the violation period is up-

at the same time, I wouldn't mind if resorts/patrollers got serious about hazardous single plankers- I for one don't think most resort management has the stomach to tame that beast- they compete for that clientle with ever bigger hits, rails etc and seem to turn a blind eye to foul mouthed rude behaviour that gets kids pitched from our race program- not to mention the increased frequency with which they seem to ram into folks- F/W/I/W
post #71 of 122
Ahh...the singleplanker problem.

Highly notorious for catching air into the middle of a trail taking as many sliders with them as possible. I think it's some sort of secret competition.

Also the 'ol "let's form a line across the trail and see how many people we can piss off" trick!

Or the language that's so dull and unintelligable that the only thing that's communicated is the utter lack of command of the english language except for four letter words that all too often gets mixed in.

Yeah...so where's the problem here? just kidding... In fact the problem is so big that anything we try and do is just overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people out there abusing the rules.

post #72 of 122
exactly my point about the resorts not being serious about controlling it- you pull 100 tickets a day and your joint gets a bad reputation. And some days I think you probably could pull 100 tickets at a big resort.

and while I am at it- for years the resorts banned citizen racing becuase it promoted speed and therefor DANGER-

now we have intermediate skiers/riders attempting inverts on hits that are HUGE- hits that the resorts spend $$$$ building-

Keep up the good work, and do whatever you can to get the worst of them off the hill-
post #73 of 122

Squatch, your first message was instructive, but now it seems like you and oldtimer are just ranting and raving. Could you two try to organize your thoughts for us, please?

P.S. The average skier is more a danger to others than the average snowboarder.
post #74 of 122
I agree with mostly everything Squatch has said.

I trust the opinions of a patroller over racers, coaches, and recreational skiers because he is less biased.

Come on we must all agree about snowboarders, no?

[ January 28, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Scalce ]
post #75 of 122
Originally posted by Scalce:
Come on we must all agree about snowboarders, no?

post #76 of 122
Well I agree that snowboarders line up across trails.

No way to deny that fact.

But back the the rude racers.
post #77 of 122
as a statistical sample this example is useless, but as far as I am concerned if it walks like a duck, stinks like a duck, it's a duck:

I have been skiing for well over 40 years, some of my brothers and suisters nearer 50 and my mother nearly 65 years. In all of that time, not a one of us has been clocked by an out of control or reckless skier. never.

mom teaches at a large resort in Southern Vt- has been hit 3 times in as many years- 2 of those 3 times while standing at the side of a trail talking with her class. each time by a male riding a snow board.

elder sister, a very fine skier, last year took her first assisted toboggan ride courtesy of a lad of some 16-17 years of age who rode off when he realized that she was hurt- austensibly to go get help, but the poor soul got lost along the way and was apparently dumbfounded when the patrol caught up with him and asked him to come to the office to fill out the accident paperwork- and nearly ballistic when informed that his parents had to be called.

3 years ago I made the unfortunate mistake of walking over to the base of the lower double chairs at S'loaf when a young man "lost control" (i don't believe you can lose something you never had) of his board and couldn't stop before going into the netting and nailing me in the lower leg with his trusty single plank. unfortunately I had on my walking shoes and not ski boots so had no protection- couldn't put any boot on for two weeks. B/T/W according to this lad and his freinds I had no business walking there and thus it was clearly my fault- this message was delivered with the usual 4 letter rant-

a sign of the times? perhaps- but if so, why doesn't this happen with under-skilled skiers so often?

likely this is all simply bad luck for me, my family and the many parents from whom I hear similar tales-

ride safe----
post #78 of 122
Be nice to snowboarders... they cant help it. The only time i was hit this season was by a snowboarder actually, but it was partially my fault, so it wasnt a big deal. It was one of those things where i stopped fast in the middle of a trail and didnt pull off to the side. Technically he had plenty of reaction time, but didnt quite have the skill to pull off the stop in time, but since we were both in a sense at fault i just let it go. He did however bend my brand new Elan Fusion poles that i free ski with.

I wish people would realize that racers are not out on the hill with bad intensions. They arent out there trying to make you mad or make you feel uncomfortable. In their minds they are completely under control, and just assume that you realize this fact. I can see where it could frightening for someone who wasnt aware of the level of control you actually have in a carve, but i guess if you dont actually do it, its hard to comprehend.

I dont think that the above posts being from a patroller are more or less credible though...

Anyhow, have your fun folks, ill be out running over helpless recreational skiers, in fact i might take the whole team out so its more like a stampede than a buzz. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]


post #79 of 122
a sign of the times? perhaps- but if so, why doesn't this happen with under-skilled skiers so often?
Gotta love posts that are already rebutted before they were even written. oldtimer, go back one page and click on the link.

P.S. HS, no way was that collision any of your fault.
post #80 of 122
That's what you get for skiing with poles, coach.

[ January 28, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: SLATZ ]
post #81 of 122
Cant we all just get along? Beginners ski, intermediates ski, experts ski, and racers ski. What do we have in common? Yes thats right, WE ALL SKI. I think judging race teams on how a few perform on the slopes is unfair to the team as a whole and the other individuals on the team. Thats like judging a multi-million dollar company by looking at a few of the *******s that work there. The company is still successful even though those individuals are present. My point is not everyone is the same. Granted seeing racers zoom by you on the slopes can be intimidating, but I agree with Heluvaskier, they do know what they are doing on the snow usually more so than anyone around them. Until the day I see a racer crash into another individual skier I will stick by my opinion that racers can ski fast and by all means should do so, at their own discretion. Age and maturity are not always a factor when skiing, skill and training determines ability. This is what makes our sport so unique, a ten year old can have more skill than a thirty year old on the same slope. Sometimes there are things that get to us taht we cant always help, and I believe this is one of those things. Let racers ski fast, and let beginners ski slow. As long as everyone is enjoying themselves, what is the big deal?
post #82 of 122
Everyone is not enjoying themselves. Some people are getting hurt. Next month I will be taking my 5 and 4 year old on their first ski trip for 5 days of professional instruction (no I will not teach them, I am not an instructor). I will be very upset if they get hurt by being hit by someone (ski racer or beginner) who is skiing too fast, or out of control. However, this will pale in comparison to how upset I will be if in a few years I find my kids skiing too fast and out of control and they hurt someone.

Thats my job, I'm their parent.

: : :
post #83 of 122
Shifty ... the saying that "figures lie and liars figure" is all too true when it comes to "statistics" and the link and information have little to do with the topic. The topic is not helmets and static injuries (what a skier or boarder inflicts on their self), but racer collisions with the general public.

If you break out boarders hitting skiers or vice versa, your information would be on topic, as presented, it's not.

I have been hit by far more boarders than skiers, for that matter, we were practicing how to "drop" a boarder in order to minimize damage to the boarder, using aikido and judo kata, just the other day. There is little argument among instructors that boarders present a far greater risk to us than skiers.

My J-3 has been taken out three times by boarders this year and one time by a skier .... a little kid trying to negotiate a black run.

Knocking on wood, we have had no accidents where one of our kids was at fault but I will speak with the coaches to see what kind of caution flags are thrown out. As an aside, our kids do not have line jumping priviliges and I'd wail my kid if I ever saw him do that.

I have been involved with teams at two hills and I have (with two exceptions), never met a bunch of more behaved and polite kids. These kids are not trash mouthed "gangstas" and to portray them as such is absurd. I'll get to meet the Stratton "gang" next week and I will post (objectively) on my observations.
post #84 of 122
I have never been hit by a skier either but I have been clipped by a boarder and my wife has been knocked over by a boarder.

But like you said this thread it is about racers.

I think that the coaches and racer parents here have made their point.

Racers have very good skills and can maneuver better than most recreational skiers and boarders.

That still does not excuse bad behavior or rule out a rare circumstance where they can injure someone or themself by skiing close to the edge with skiers of less skill around them.

So we will all be safe with racers around but just have to put up with their shit.

Next time I am on a run making GS turns and I hear 12 racers zooming up from behind I will continue to make GS turns and have the racers avoid me instead of me picking a narrower line to accomodate them.

[ January 29, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Scalce ]
post #85 of 122
If you're making "GS" turns they shouldn't be catching you.
Sorry, no disrespect intended. I just couldn't resist.
post #86 of 122
I don't usually ski full out for two reasons:

1.) I blew out my knee last year and don't feel like injuring it again so soon

2.) I never ski at a very high speed with alot of people on the run incase something out of the ordinary happens

I like to ski a run with variations in turn shape. I very rarely ski a run doing the same thing the whole way down. Eventually someone will catch me when I switch to linking small turns and work on speed control on ice.

I usually try to accomodate faster skiers (not very many) by picking a tighter line and making small turns to allow them to get a sense of my movements and pass if they feel the need.

Making GS turns does not mean that you have to be skiing at your upper speed limit.
post #87 of 122
I understand.
Would you like me to delete the post?
post #88 of 122

I have a sense of humor.

I know I am not the fastest skier but that is not my main goal in skiing anyway.

In this cold weather it sucks to make like 10 turns and then wait on a lift again.
post #89 of 122
"figures lie and liars figure"[/QB]
yuki, you're being ridiculous. Ski patrollers document injuries into data. They are skiers. Dr. Shealy gathered and compiled the data. He is a 60- or 70-year-old skier.

If they were to lie about the data, they would skew it to make snowboarders look good and skiers look bad (something this thread is doing a good job of)???!!! Yeah, right.

P.S. Please don't suggest again that you're allowed to rebut but I am not.
post #90 of 122
Originally posted by ShiftyRider:

Squatch, your first message was instructive, but now it seems like you and oldtimer are just ranting and raving. Could you two try to organize your thoughts for us, please?

P.S. The average skier is more a danger to others than the average snowboarder.
Originally posted by ShiftyRider:

Squatch, your first message was instructive, but now it seems like you and oldtimer are just ranting and raving. Could you two try to organize your thoughts for us, please?

P.S. The average skier is more a danger to others than the average snowboarder.
I'm getting back into this thread a little late....had to go skiing last night!

Sorry about the seemingly rant/rave against snowboarders. It's just that the majority of guests on the hill are young male thrill seekers and they tend to prefer to ride snowboards. By demographics they are more irresponsible than other demographic groups.

I hope I'm not biased against one group or another, it's just that the majority of people I talk to and pick-up off the hill are the young males. So I'm just relating to, and understanding 'oldtimers' perception that it's snowboarders causing most of the accidents.

There are many accidents on the hill due to a variety of things and it's unfair to attribute them to one group or another without hard data/facts. However, it's people's perception and not the reality that is important. If guests at a resort think/perceive that racer's are a problem on the hill and are complaining, then that is the reality that the Resort Management and Coaches of the race teams must deal with.

I thank the coaches who have responded to this thread in outlining their 'no tolerance' policies. I know the racer's who are traveling in large groups are just having fun and being kid's. I'm glad to hear that you take the time to educate them on 'Your Responsibility Code' and proper hill etiquette.

As for the other Coaches who just don't get it...your day's are numbered by the people who perceive your racers as a problem and Resort Management will have no choice but to boot you from the hill.

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