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Wanted - advice on a real safe binding - Page 3

post #61 of 83
PhilT, is your photo above the new lightweight Neox that I heard rumours they were developing?
post #62 of 83
[captainobvious] Honestly, I think this thread got ****ed up by over-exuberant genital-waving from both the I-Don't-Depend-On-Binding-Release faction and the So-And-So-Is-A-Douchebag faction. [/captainobvious]

Of course, both factions tried to make some valid points.

Sure, you want well-maintained, well-adjusted, and hence well-functioning bindings. Mostly depending on how you ski, pretty much all of the new bindings out there can fit the bill. I have even skied on the oft-maligned Markers and can tell you that they didn't suck so much as to be obvious for how I ski. (YMMV, obviously.) That said, consensus seems to indicate that one can't go wrong with Look/Rossignol Axial/Axial 2 bindings. A good number of people also seem to like Salomon Driver-type and Tyrolia bindings.

That said...

You should try to ski and fall as if you had no releasable bindings at all. You need to try skiing in a way which avoid situations where you might fall in an uncontrolled way, and you need to try to stay in control while you fall. Since we're only talking about your approach to skiing/falling, this is achievable for all conditions (including tricky ones) and all skier builds (including the less-resilient ones). However, this may necessitate changing your skiing style in a way that you may not immediately like, and/or making the effort to learn how to fall without twisting up your legs. Both may even require some strength-building in a gym. Tumbling courses are an obvious choice.

That said...

It would be simply asinine to try to force a modification to your skiing/falling approach by actually thwarting the proper functionality of your bindings by maxing their settings. I mean, what if you accidentally lapse or fail at your intention in what is supposed to be a course of learning? "Oh well, I ended up destroying my legs, but that was a well-designed lesson in how not to destroy my legs?"

Consider that the difference is equivalent to this:

1) Motivating yourself to perform as if you had rigged a loaded gun against your head, versus...
2) Motivating yourself to perform by actually rigging a loaded gun against your head.

The latter might be a better motivator, but the price of failure is unacceptable. Considering that we're actually talking about a person trying to learn how to ski/fall the right way (as opposed to forcing somebody who already is adept at it), maxing your bindings to make them effectively non-releasable is just bad, irresponsible advice.
post #63 of 83
what I hva gathered do far....

releasing too early...Bad

releasing not at all...Bad

Conclusion: find a DIN that matches well with your aggressiveness along with the terrain you are skiing and you should be able to reduce the risk of injury.
post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by DtEW View Post
Consider that the difference is equivalent to this:

1) Motivating yourself to perform as if you had rigged a loaded gun against your head, versus...
2) Motivating yourself to perform by actually rigging a loaded gun against your head.

The latter might be a better motivator, but the price of failure is unacceptable.
Great analogy (...really, no sarcasm here)!
That is a key distinction.
post #65 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
PhilT, is your photo above the new lightweight Neox that I heard rumours they were developing?
Atomic has cut the weight considerably in the Neox binding for the upcoming season, however it still weighs considerably more than the average binding. I have never been a fan of Atomic bindings or boots (except their race boot).
post #66 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by skijunkie View Post
See the fact that you laughed at "clean boot soles", shows EVERYONE here truly how ignorant and uninformed you are. Any type of build up of dirt or snow on a boot snow will cause a binding to potentially pre-release, but you wouldn't know that because your knowledge and theories are purely what you invent in your head. BTW, that is binding knowledge 101, but I doubt you could even pass a simple certification to be a binding technician in a ski shop. Secondly, I get paid to ski, test skis and advise both consumers and retailers on equipment choices, you on the other hand just babel incoherent delusional opinions without training, knowledge or experience. You are the epicski.com poster child of ridicule and laughter (not with you AT YOU!).
Yeah dude......sarcasm. I'm so far beyond you that the things I say just don't make sense to you.

I was certified to mount bindings when I worked in a shop in the 90's. I still do 3-5 freehand mounts every year on my own skis.....ie. without a jig. They come out perfect, since I know how to measure.

I'm not a ski tech anymore, since I have a real job that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated.
post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
Yeah dude......sarcasm. I'm so far beyond you that the things I say just don't make sense to you.

I was certified to mount bindings when I worked in a shop in the 90's. I still do 3-5 freehand mounts every year on my own skis.....ie. without a jig. They come out perfect, since I know how to measure.

I'm not a ski tech anymore, since I have a real job that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated.
Being a S>T>>A>>>>>R on here would be for YOU!!
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by skijunkie View Post
Atomic has cut the weight considerably in the Neox binding for the upcoming season.....
Mmmm, that's debatable.

I own three pairs of Neox 412's - 04/05, 05/06 & 07/08. There was some weight reduction (250g per ski) on the 05/06 Neox compared to the original 04/05 Neox, but the weight reduction was in the metal in the mounting plate not in the toe & heel pieces. On examination the metal in the original plate is steel & in the 05/06 plate it's either an alloy or titanium(?).

The new 07/08 heel & toe pieces are actually a tad heavier & upon examination the metal in the plate looks no different from the 05/06 plate. The binding screws on my skis are all properly torqued & glued so I've not wanted to remove the plates to weigh & compare them.

Weights of a single toe & heel piece:
04/05 - 950g
05/06 - 950g
07/08 - 971g

If Atomic have 'considerably' reduced the weight of the 07/08 Neox I'd like to know from were & by how much. Now I'm a big Atomic ski & Neox binding fan but I suspect more 'marketing speak' here than hard fact.
post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon View Post
If Atomic have 'considerably' reduced the weight of the 07/08 Neox I'd like to know from were & by how much.
Check how many pages are in the instruction manual.
Also, are they using lighter cardboard on the box?

post #70 of 83
Since the majority of skis are now sold as an integrated ski-binding system, the choices is in the market place are greatly reduced.

I am always surprised about how passionate the debate gets around binding choices.

I currently have both Look bindings (on Dynastar SkiCross and Omeglass SL) and Marker bindings (Nordica Dobermans and Eliminators) installed on my skis. I switched to using the Dobermans for racing last season and never had a problem with binding pre-release. My worst yard sale ever occured on my Dynstars when the bindings released.

What I have noticed was that more and more injuries are happening at slower speeds - broken legs, shredded knees - because of the lack of binding release.
post #71 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiNut View Post
the bindings released.

What I have noticed was that more and more injuries are happening at slower speeds - broken legs, shredded knees - because of the lack of binding release.
Skinut,

OMHO, the knee issues have more to do with boots than bindings. Such as years ago it was ankles that broke, now the ankle is moblized much better in todays boots and the knee has become the weak link.
post #72 of 83
Maybe this is a great thread to piggyback onto. I seem to have a lot of heel releases, one of which led to a serious rib injury. I have skis with Fischer (Tyrolia) bindings and Atomic bindings. I don't like going way above the DIN chart, as I already refuse to back off one line for being over fifty. Most talk has been about toe pieces and various angles at which they release. What thoughts do you have on heel pieces, and various makes:?
post #73 of 83
FOG:

Rossi/Look. The best. IMHO.
post #74 of 83
FOG,

I think most of the advice here actually applies to heelpieces more than toepieces - both Tyrolia and Look/Rossi 'pivot' (older ones) have a heelpiece which rotates slightly... that may or may not prevent certain kinds of fractures. Either way, Rossi heels are praised (by me, as well as others) for having a nice, elastic release that will keep you in safely even at a lower din. Oh, and Marker heels are just as bad as marker toes. Seriously, Y'all, coming out of markers is not some psychological bandwagon....
post #75 of 83
Marker..Scmarker...Look..schmook...ect. Any 4-12 DIN binding out there is perfectly fine for 98% of the skiers (thet fit in that weight range). If you want the more positive feel of an all metal housed binding pay the difference. I am not a light guy and I ski heavy, I have smaller boot and ski at a 9-10 and have not pre released in 3 years.
post #76 of 83
Back to the original topic, Thought # one, if it were my leg that was broken and I had Brand "A" bindings before I'd change to Brand "B" or "C" just to be different. Regaining confidence, both in my skiing and my bindings would be primarily psychological and the binding change would help me "think" I had done something to avoid future injury. I agree all the bindings work properly most of the time. I would guess one fall in ten is an unexpected binding release (I hesitate to say pre-release because I've never been injured in one of these falls so I assume the binding released when it was supposed to release) There's also the occasional bad fall where there is no release despite a lot of bouncing and rolling around. It's not an exact science.
Thought # two. Binding release settings are based on boot size, skier weight, age PLUS ability and aggressiveness. I do not understand the logic in using a binding with a high top side DIN number if age, big feet and light weight all add up to a mid range DIN regardless of ability or aggressiveness. Shouldn't a binding operate at it's best somewhere in the middle of it's designed range? If you're 55 years old, 155 lb. and a size 12 US boot size the chart is going to recommend a mid range DIN setting regardless of your ability.
Thought # three. This is another serious fall that's very similar to falls covered in another thread. There's something going on with wider skis and the inside ski of a carved turn that's causing problems. These breaks occur before the falls. It may be a technique issue or a flaw in the design of the binding-ski interface or an as yet undiagnosed problem with wider skis on harder snow. It's a problem that deserves ski industry attention.
post #77 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
I'm not a ski tech anymore, since I have a real job that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated.
Dude, you left out an a.
post #78 of 83
Fog, I've been forced by my own knee issues to do some research on heel release. Conclusions:

1) IMO, Philpug is correct about toes, assuming upward release for ACL torque. Less sure I buy it for heels. Orthopedists I've talked to who know skiing say that having some movement at the heelpiece in addition to upward is desirable in certain classes of falls. Rotary appears to provide a small reduction in the sheer a knee experiences prior to a sideways boot release from the toepiece. True horizontal to vertical (Line) is far better, because it also covers situations where the toe is jammed forward during sideways force but there is inadequate or twisting upward movement at the heel. And diagonal (Tyrolia, just short of full horizontal) has most of the biomechanical advantages of the Line without reported problems of prerelease to the side. Marker, of course, accomplishes some of this with their toe pieces, but it ain't the same, mechanically.

2) From a biomedical perspective, like it or not, people who just use traditional heels (think Salomons, Atomics, new Looks etc.) are at slightly higher risk, everything else being equal. Emphasize that the elevated risk is small, and many folks may ski their whole lives without needing that extra margin of safety. Or they may just end up with slightly more twinges after bad falls or slightly looser knees by age 40. (But no study I know that compares twinges or looseness in terms of binding design, and a pain in the butt to design.)

3) OTOH, this fact ignores other potential problems with extra motion heels, like releasing so easily at the heel that some folks get hurt as a result. From an epidemiological perspective, assume that the incidence of traditional heels contributing to knee injury, while small, is far higher than inuury from coming out too soon. (As I said in my earlier post, not that many skiers will actually be injured by easy release.) But if your ribs have been screwed up by Tyrolias, answer may be to take the higher risk of traditional heels and lower your risk of further rib injury.

4) Think of it like premature ejaculation; happens before you want it to, but it's tough to know how long you should stay in before saying goodbye.
post #79 of 83
your comment:

OK, that's got me thinking again. I always liked Looks and the idea of the turntable heel too.....until I snapped my achilles tendon maybe 20 years ago on a set of N77Rs (on a pair of 'The Ski' no less) and I've been a bit predudiced against ever since. But remembering that was really my own fool fault having them cranked up too tight, you've got me re-thinking this. Don't suppose there's a turntable heel with a diagonal toe on the market?

Every post I've ever seen suggests setting Looks Dins a little lower NOT
higher. I've always skied Looks at Din 7 - 8 and I'm 5' 7" 180lbs. The
Top end race models are excellent.
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1henderson View Post
your comment:

OK, that's got me thinking again. I always liked Looks and the idea of the turntable heel too.....until I snapped my achilles tendon maybe 20 years ago on a set of N77Rs (on a pair of 'The Ski' no less) and I've been a bit predudiced against ever since. But remembering that was really my own fool fault having them cranked up too tight, you've got me re-thinking this. Don't suppose there's a turntable heel with a diagonal toe on the market?

Every post I've ever seen suggests setting Looks Dins a little lower NOT
higher. I've always skied Looks at Din 7 - 8 and I'm 5' 7" 180lbs. The
Top end race models are excellent.
LOL, You cannot blame that on the Looks, you have to blame it on your Achilles. It must have been one weak achilles to break before "The Ski" did . "The Ski" was one of the weakest/least durable skis of all times
post #81 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
I prereleased from a din 13 2 times in the last month and tweeked my knee on a din 12 a couple months ago. Walking with a limp for two weeks sucked but loosing one of your skis mid carve at >45MPH sucked more, I got pretty banged up and if there was a tree in the way I might not be here right now. The other time I prereleased was while trying to stop at the bottom of a bowl the ski just rolled off my foot (props to tyrolia for a very Smooth prerelease ) and left my clawing at the ground like crazy as I slid over a rollover towards some large pointy rocks. So ya seconding what others have said, it's a trade off between risk and benifit. I error on the side of retention but I would still like my skis to release when I need them to.
You ever tried p18s? I was all intimidated of them, but since trying them I'm in love. They actually release WAY smoother than mojo15s (even at higher dins), and I haven't had a single prerelease (even at lower dins).
post #82 of 83
I've had go luck with Look and Tyrolia. Not so with Atomic,Sollys and Markers.
post #83 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
You ever tried p18s? I was all intimidated of them, but since trying them I'm in love. They actually release WAY smoother than mojo15s (even at higher dins), and I haven't had a single prerelease (even at lower dins).
Yes I have a pair of the p18's on my Pow Pluses. BTW for anybody who cares, I broke some plastic off the toepieces of the tyrolia demo bindings this wednesday, just from skiing and hucking.
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