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Which skis avoid tip-dive in deep snow? - Page 2

post #31 of 70
K2 Public Enemies mounted on the rearward "0" line typically have very little tip dive in most kinds of powder.....cool for a ski which is also good in bumps, trees, and groomers.
post #32 of 70
Metron B5s: Rode these for a couple of PA powder days and found the 172cm B5 to work pretty well in deep snow. The tips are huge and actually float exceptionally well compared to other skis with a similar sized waist (76mm). I don't think they are all that predictable at speed in deeper snow. As much as this ski needs to be driven hard with a firm hand on hard snow, they need a meticulous skier with a finesse touch in powder. You need to keep (your movements, but not necessarily your velocity) pretty slow and controlled, but they work in pow with minimal tip dive. Just keep centered fore- aft and they will be fine. With a ski this stiff if you abruptly lever them over you can dig in and easily go assoverteakettle.

188CM Nordica Beast 124-92-116 TT mounted 1.5cm back. They work much better than the Metrons in deeper softer snow 12"+, easier to ski and much more predictable. And they were floating my 200+ lbs just fine. I find they have very soft sections for about 6" at the tip and tails of the skis right after the contact point. The interior portions of the ski are much more beefy and I think the ski is equally good in crud and pow. Never had a assoverteakettle type fall in maybe 20 days on these for the season. The ski carves very well on PA PP, much better than I expected. Its fine on ice as long as I keep the edges sharp. So-So in bumps.

None of my other skis are worth writing home about in terms of pow performance. Fischer bigstix 7.6 are a classic mid fat. I ski them too short 175cm to float me reliably.
post #33 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
Opinions needed.

Many great threads exist that cover the subject of ski width and float in powder, but only a few discuss what ski models will reduce tip-dive in powder and why.

What models and design features reduces the tendency to tip dive? Are these features good for soft snow but detrimental for carving on groomed snow?

Any opinions?

Best regards,

Michael
A softer flexing tip and where you mount your binding are two contributing factors to float. If you plan on using your ski for primarily skiing soft snow and off piste I would suggest mounting your binding a centimeter or 2 back from the center point. This will give you better float.
post #34 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skijunkie View Post
A softer flexing tip and where you mount your binding are two contributing factors to float. If you plan on using your ski for primarily skiing soft snow and off piste I would suggest mounting your binding a centimeter or 2 back from the center point. This will give you better float.
Yes, I'm going to follow this strategy. The factory marks on my Salomon Supermountain are way back and its a great powder ski of slender (110-80-96mm) dims.

My Dynastar Inspired by Nobis have demo bindings and I'm able to position the boot up to 5cm behind the line. Sierrajim mentioned that the later 8800's (same ski) are marked, at the factory, 3cm behind the mark of my ski.

Cheers,

michael
post #35 of 70
My ski: 185 cm Pocket Rockets.

I don't consider myself a powder expert. However, because we have had so much deep snow for the last two years, I am starting to get there.

When I first got the pr's I loved cruising six inch pow and watching those tips flex so easily. I don't bother watching anymore because of the confidence I have in those skis. Flex, width and also length all contribute to float.

On my pre-pow skis, I remember charging down 30" pow, trying to sit way back, only to have those skis submarine disasterously.

Even pr's can dive. Diving usually happens when you slow down in heavier pow, in flatter areas, or at the bottom of a steep pitch. So, you have to anticipate a little back-weighting in these slow down areas. One way to shift weight is with hand position. Sitting back is exhausting unless you are really built for it. Sometimes I find that holding my hands high shifts my weight back just enough.

Since we don't get real deep pow all the time, I believe that we lack that confidence that comes with experience. So, you have to tell yourself to point those skis down the hill and keep your speed up. Pow skiing really begs for steep slopes. You will have a harder time on those green and blue runs that have a deep snow dump on them. You just need that steepness for the pow experience.

My pr's ski just fine on groomers - they rip.

I am a believer in normally mounted skis. The best technique is to be centered on your skis and use subtle weight shifts as needed. Just my humble opinion.

I am amazed when watching the old Warren Miller films where they ski the pow in those old straight skis. Those guys are real athletes and notice that they were going real fast.

Watched a guy skiing down from High Campbell at Crystal Mtn, WA after a lot of dumping. Even though he was on a steep slope, he was up to his chest in snow. I didn't wait to see how he got going, because he just stopped for a while with snow up to his armpits. There is deep, then there is real deep. I suspect he could have done better if he had gotten his speed up. Ain't if fun?
post #36 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Basically, it's all been said: soft long tips, length and, especially, good technique. I've got a pair of Monster 103's (which are supposed to be tip-dive machines) and I've never had any trouble with tip dive. In fact, I've never had any problem with tip dive on any skis including old straight GS skis. I'm also not a big fan of mounting skis behind the manufacturer's mounting point. I wonder how many people have turned perfectly good skis into swiss cheese when all they had to do was improve thier technique a bit.
What kind of technique do you try when your tips dive even when you are sitting on the tails of your skis and your toes are about to break through the roofs of your boots? Skiing backwards? The tips dove on my Volkl G41's but only on the best powder days when the fresh was at least two feet deep and very light. The G41's were 188cm long and great skis in every other way including most powder days. Two of my friends had the same problem with them. When I asked the Volkl rep about this, he confirmed that they dive in deep light snow. On 175cm Pocket Rockets I have skied super light fresh up to my waist with no diving. Old skinny gs and sl race skis, no dive problem. 188 volkl p40's would dive.

If you haven't been on skies that dive in powder, it doesn't mean they don't exist or that it is always caused by poor technique. Sitting on your tails is poor technique. I think even Wayne Wong would admit to that.

Party on,
dt
post #37 of 70
Simple. Buy a pair of Faty-pus Alotta's. 172mm at the tip and the best skiing all around soft snow ski I have ever skied...the word dive is not in their vocabulary!
post #38 of 70
incredibly confused by this post since I know Barret has a pair of Spats (of which he so generously showed us in his quiver picture, plus he and I have conversed about them throughout the season since I have a pair, as well...didn't realize just how skinny they look next to the 'Toons, though!).

if your Spats aren't guilty of tip-diving, why the post?

seems like you have the powder ski that doesn't tip dive hence negating the need to post a thread about powder skis that do and don't tip dive, eh?

and if your tips are diving in powder then get down and ride that Pinto bucket seat stylee!

post #39 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruxpercnd View Post
My ski: 185 cm Pocket Rockets.
I am amazed when watching the old Warren Miller films where they ski the pow in those old straight skis. Those guys are real athletes and notice that they were going real fast.
Hey, some of us are those guys! We used to laugh at the fat old guys in their 50's who skied on the first exploders and atomic heli-guides.- Cheater skis for the incompetent.
K2 TNC anyone?
Now we are those fat old guys in their 50's....

And so, who needs an excuse to post anything about powder+gear around here?
post #40 of 70
^that's funny!

now Spats etc. are the "Cheater skis for the incompetent", though in my defense up until last season I was skiing all conditions on 198 Rossi 7S's and learned to bounce pow on 'em.

The Spats, however, made it fun again.

In ref to the Explosiv comment, I hunted down freshie stashes 3 days after the "Big" tahoe storm back in February with a retired high school auto shop teacher in his '60s with rebuilt titanium knees. He was on early gen Exploders (neon yellow with purple and green) and kicked my a$$ all day and all over the mountain. we hooked up on the lift and he was intrigued by my "silver water skis". we inadvertantly took opposite lines on either side of a row of trees and ended up back at the lift at the same time and then decided to track down the leftover stashes together. it's safe to say i might not have been able to keep up with him on "regular" powder planks. but who knows?
post #41 of 70
The very first reply covered the mechanical aspects of this very well.

The technique component is also critical as a skier that skis their skis under them and fairly flat (surfy style) can have less of an issue with tip dive than the skier who skis with the skis a little more out from under them (slicer style). The latter style can exacerbate the tendancy as the ski tries to turn downward within the fluid medium. This is the foundation for my opinion that all other factors being fairly equal, a ski with a ton of sidecut is less than ideal in a fluid medium for a slicer type skier.

Back to the pro leisure tour........

SJ
post #42 of 70
First you should check out your technique: You aren't one of those skiers that sits back and tries to keep the tips up and out of the powder all the time are you? If you are, you shouldn't try to solve it just by getting a super floater ski, you should get some powder lessons. Most skis can be used tips down with a bit of shin pressure if you ski them right. If you already ski powder pretty well I apologize, but I see some skiers out there that really need more confidence than more float.

Of course there are skis that in fickle snow will do a real dive, to the point of a double heel release front flip. This thread covers the ski issue pretty well.
post #43 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Crab View Post
Hey, some of us are those guys! We used to laugh at the fat old guys in their 50's who skied on the first exploders and atomic heli-guides.- Cheater skis for the incompetent.
K2 TNC anyone?
Now we are those fat old guys in their 50's....

And so, who needs an excuse to post anything about powder+gear around here?
My Olin DTSL skinny skis were super in powder and loads of fun. They rode in it deep but no tip dive. My K2 SLC skinny skis did have some tip dive but more so in heavy day old than in fresh.
post #44 of 70
since SJ brought up the concept of "surfing"...

http://www.hendryxskis.se/rhino.htm

I am dying to try these bad boys out, just gotta get over to Sweden next season.
post #45 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
What kind of technique do you try when your tips dive even when you are sitting on the tails of your skis and your toes are about to break through the roofs of your boots? Skiing backwards?
Sitting back at all in powder (or any other snow, for that matter) is probably the worst thing you can do. I don't know where this myth got started or how it keeps perpetuating itself. I'm not anal about technique, but I've never had problems with tip-dive. I've skied 208 K2 GS Races, 204 K2 TNCs, 203 Salomon Force 9s, 200 Rossi 4Ss and 7Ms,193 Dynastar BIGs, 190 Volkl Explosivs, Volkl Sanouks, 193 Monster 103s, etc., etc.

Maybe it's skiing fast, mabe it's long skis - I dunno. If anything I drive the tips, yet I still have no issues.
post #46 of 70
well unfortuneatly the "best" way to ride Spatulas in deep pow is to totally sit in the back seat and lean on the tails. it even says so in McConkey's manual for the ski. if you don't ride those in the back seat they totally tip dive (they're massively heavy, btw).

i've found you actually get more control of them if you're totally in the bucket and almost a$$ dragging.

but i think it's just a functionality of the design of that ski.

of course i could have read the manual wrong and be totally skiing them wrong, but damn did i have fun on 'em the 5 days i got 'em out in fresh and semi-fresh this season.

okay, i stand somewhat corrected.

i just re-glanced over the Spat manual (http://www.fuzeqna.com/evogear/consu...il.asp?kbid=61) and couldn't find McConkey saying anything about sitting in the back seat. I think i just found them easier to ride in the position and the way the tails are set up it almost seems as if they were meant to be ridden in the rearward rocker position (you can literally balance yourself on the tails the way they are reverse cambered and twipped).

but i agree, one shouldn't normally be totally deep down in the bucket seat. but it damn sure is a hoot on the Spats.
post #47 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post
incredibly confused by this post since I know Barret has a pair of Spats (of which he so generously showed us in his quiver picture, plus he and I have conversed about them throughout the season since I have a pair, as well...didn't realize just how skinny they look next to the 'Toons, though!).

if your Spats aren't guilty of tip-diving, why the post?
I just needed to think about skiing and get my fix : !

And it would be cool to know why some wider skis dive & and others resist diving!

Cheers,

Michael
post #48 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
I just needed to think about skiing and get a my fix : !

And it would be cool to know why some wider skis dive & and others resist diving!

Cheers,

Michael
like we said alot of its has to do with stiffness and binding position.
post #49 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Sitting back at all in powder (or any other snow, for that matter) is probably the worst thing you can do. I don't know where this myth got started or how it keeps perpetuating itself.
This just seems to be my day for quoting Jer.

I could be wrong on this but I suspect Wayne Wong might have accidentally promoted skiing in the back seat around 1971. He was a winning freestyle bump skier back then and in a pic on the cover of a ski magazine he was way in the back seat in a stylish "Look what I can recover from" pose. I think a lot of people gathered from that pic that that was how skiing it was supposed to be done.

He is a great carver and I see him giving what look to be carving clinics at Alpine Meadows regularly.

dt
post #50 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post
of course i could have read the manual wrong and be totally skiing them wrong...

okay, i stand somewhat corrected.
Yes you did and yes to do.

The point of the rocker/reverse camber and center-mount on Spatulas is to ski them centered, i.e. pivot from the center of the ski.

And I actually belive because of that McConkey went on to design Pontoons with their huge tips. People have complained that they (Toons) are not that easy to pivot and the tips must be driven like "traditional" skis. And if you check e.g. PUSH/PULL and McConkeys section you can see how he drives the skis really forward biased, almost race style. And still is able to pivot/slide the skis here and there.(IMHO that segment is what powder skiing is supposed to look like in 2007...by no means I ski as good or as fast but that's the image/feeling I'm aiming these days...) And yes, he seems to have ZERO tip dive with the Toons...
post #51 of 70
Has anyone had or heard of any experiences with Salomon Sandstorms? (cause I found a killer deal...)
post #52 of 70
I've skied the powder blue Guns. The Sandstorm is supposed to be the Gun with the rear twin tip sawed off, which I think is a great idea. I found the Gun to be terrific in powder, similer to the Pocket Rocket, but more stable (stiffer) and with a higher speed limit. Very silky smooth round turns, a Salomon trademark. Awfully fun in bumps, for some reason, despite a 101 waist. Good in crud and everything , really, except hard snow. I'm told that these work pretty good on groomers, but with that big sidecut I mostly just fall down. (well, once). I think levering over that much width on flat snow takes some practice. In a three dimensional environment they shine. The 188 is surprisingly quick in trees and tight spots but can go long at high speed very well too. Very stable platform on traverses and GS crudbusting. The 174 is downright squirrly- it's kinda stable enough, I guess, but it just wants to turn tight most of the time. Fun but a different ski altogether. May be a good choice for lighter guys and women. Next year they're coming out with a 180 Sandstorm and a 181 gun (unless I have that backwards) which sounds like a more sensible length for a lot of skiers. I've been on the guns two days, both pow days.

5'11"
170
L8
post #53 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
Opinions needed.

Any opinions?
Chubbs rule.
post #54 of 70
Thanks Crab.

That's some great info. I guess my first choice would be some Gots, but I can get these at less than dealer cost. I'm 6'/182lb and the 187cm seems like it would be perfect.

The sidecut is a bit more than most, but I would probably be moving from my AC4s to these in anything more than ankle deep and do like to move all over the mountain to include bumps and trees. They sound like they might be a good choice.
post #55 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT View Post
I could be wrong on this but I suspect Wayne Wong might have accidentally promoted skiing in the back seat around 1971. He was a winning freestyle bump skier back then and in a pic on the cover of a ski magazine he was way in the back seat in a stylish "Look what I can recover from" pose. I think a lot of people gathered from that pic that that was how skiing it was supposed to be done.

He is a great carver and I see him giving what look to be carving clinics at Alpine Meadows regularly.
I was on a four-man race team with him at a benefit race at Nashoba Valley a few years ago. It was cool to race with such an icon of the sport, but I beat him by 2 seconds.
post #56 of 70
I was interested in the Goats (love that nickname) too. I was looking for a Mantra like ski but longer & fatter than my 177's and softer for deep pow. I was concerned that the new goats were going to be stiffer than the white ones and maybe Volkl just doesn't understand light pow like the Frenchies do- trying to make one ski do everything and losing the objective... Also I prefer short turns over long on the theory that short is better in steeps, so I went with the Sollies over the goats. Another reason- none around to demo close at hand, anyway. Finally, the deal. Last years hand made wood core version, $1200 retail for five bills...but I'll never know. People love the goats. If I add another pow ski to the quiver I'll have to check into rehab. A twenty+pow day season next winter should clear things up.
post #57 of 70
The newest goat ski powder great only problem is the sidewalls compress on the slightest rock hits. Still durable compared to other skis but nothing in comparison to the white and old gotamas.
post #58 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
The newest goat ski powder great only problem is the sidewalls compress on the slightest rock hits. Still durable compared to other skis but nothing in comparison to the white and old gotamas.
My recollection is that squaretail claimed the new (07/08) sidewalls are custom material (both density & thickness I think) - specifically for durability....
post #59 of 70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2dJB3f6zSE

Pretty cool video of skiing on Spatulas.

Seems like not much backseating to me.

And, about the tip dive...I think people overreact a bit to that (in general). If you check that guy on the above video skiing light pow, yes his tip dive here and there (on Spats!). But if you're balanced and have enough speed that should be no issue....actually, IMHO it is pretty cool that in good enough snow you can totally sink to the snow, even on some 125mm underfoot skis!
post #60 of 70
Lot of talk of rearward mounting point to reduce tip dive -- what are the downsides of moving the binding back, i.e., what are you giving up performance wise, or in what conditions would this create difficulties?

My "powder" ski (to the extent we get powder in the east) is a mere midfat by today's standards -- Blizzard Titan 8.2 in 173 cm length, 120/82/103. I loved it in the few days of pow that I got this year but it's more in the snow, not on top of it. Dunno if that's "tip dive," no somersaults, but it sure isn't floating. Maybe at 175 lbs the 173cm is short for these purposes (but it was an offer I could not refuse, thanks to the gear swap page here on epicski). However it's got demo bindings which could be set further back. Pros / cons of doing so?
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