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Which skis avoid tip-dive in deep snow?

post #1 of 70
Thread Starter 
Opinions needed.

Many great threads exist that cover the subject of ski width and float in powder, but only a few discuss what ski models will reduce tip-dive in powder and why.

What models and design features reduces the tendency to tip dive? Are these features good for soft snow but detrimental for carving on groomed snow?

Any opinions?

Best regards,

Michael
post #2 of 70
a) Flex- a softer flexing tip will bend and 'seek the surface' of the snow. No real draw back outside of powder.

b) Mounting point- the farther back a ski is mounted the less likely it will be to dive. Can be difficult to initiate turns for skiers who 'tail gun'.

c) Tip profile- an extended tip that has a significant upsweep will want to stay on the surface. The sidecut should not continue past the contact point of the ski as it does on many carving skis, this will cause the ski to hook and sometimes to 'carve down' into the snow. Down side here is that you have extra swing weight.

The Volkl Sanouk combines all these elements in one ski.
post #3 of 70
I posted something last night about how Salomon makes great pow skis- again whenever someone says that around here it raises a fuss because they suck on groomers. I say so what. With that out of the way, I never, ever had tip dive on Pocket Rockets or, before that, X scream series- (or, before that Super force 9's...). The softer tip design flexes and seeks the surface. The Head Monster 88 doesn't dive-it has a big soft tip but is stiffer mid and tail.
The Mantras are stiff for powder and do dive- and have to be skied accordingly. There was a lot posted about this, mounting position, etc, last fall. A lot of people mounted them back 1-2 cm to counter. I mounted them on the line and love how they handle from there. In superlight pow, linking turns, it can take a subtle heel pressure in the belly of the turn to point them up to the surface. If the snow is heavier or wind compressed, staying centered is all it takes and your weight+resitance at tip and tail cambers the ski surfaceward (if that's a word)
I've never skiied the Gotamas or a lot of other skis that sound great in pow (who wastes time demoing a lot on pow days?). K2 makes some great fat softies, and Atomic now too, I gather...
Generally, my rule is soft snow- soft ski, with the Mantras being an exception. Softer tips seek the surface. My skiing style in pow is pretty old school- tight to medium linked turns at moderate speed seeking perfectly consistant tracks... like the Euroweinies in "Aspen Extreme". It'll be interesting to hear from the techheads on this...
post #4 of 70
I can tell you what skis to avoid, my Kästle SGs. They are good on the steep portion going for speed, but they bog down when it gets slow. I blame the stiff tails.
post #5 of 70
Ghost you should blame the loose nut behind the steering wheel.:
post #6 of 70
Try some Dynastar Big Troubles mounted at -3.
post #7 of 70
This is a great bit of research:http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=41028 I noticed in the great Pocket Rocket debate a few years back that the people who hated them the most lived in the PNW- the Seirra people liked them a bit better and so on. Snow density and skiing style are a factor. A stiffer ski will work better in heavier snow at higher speeds,etc...
post #8 of 70
Let's face it skiing style is the absolute, number one, contributing factor in how a ski performs for an individual. Everyone is different, so...opinions will vary. There is no right or wrong, just personal preferences.

There is also the desire to avoid specialization, most people want a ski that can multi-task. That is understandable but also leads to watered down performance. The new generation of specialty skis with rockered tips and reverse sidecut should excell in soft snow but they are compromised when out of their prefered element. Want a great soft snow ski? Stop worrying about hard snow/ mogul performance. You can't have everything, optimize what is important.
post #9 of 70
I've gotta agree with Whiteroom here. I think the best way to avoid submarining in pow is to take a trip over to the Technique forums. AFAIK, there really isn't much you can do with ski design that will stop tip-dive, it's mostly a "software" problem.
post #10 of 70
Style/techique will certainly contribute to tip dive (or lack thereof) but a powder ski with a wide soft tip will allow you to ski with your weight farther forward and also provide a bigger margin of error for forward/back weight shifts. I like a pow ski with a soft front end so I don't have to work the back seat to keep them from diving. There's nothing like a ski with the right flex that allows you to stand in the middle and relax a little in the deep stuff, but as has been noted, that type tends to really suck on the hardpack.
post #11 of 70
Both of these....

post #12 of 70
Thread Starter 
Mug shot time;

Several are "Guilty" of tip dive, others are not.

From left to right;

160cm RX8; Not much tip dive with a lighter skier
160cm GS9; Guilty
165cm Big Stix 7.2; Not guilty
175cm RX8; Not much tip dive
175cm Worldcup RC; Guilty
175cm Monster 88; Never stood trial
182cm Intuitive 74; Not guilty
186cm Spats; Not guilty
188cm Inspired by Nobis; Guilty due to forward mounting point
186cm Salomon Supermountain; Not guilty due to reward mounting point.

not seen
178cm Dynastar Contact 11; Not guilty due to broad tip & soft(ish) tail
165cm Worldcup SC; Guilty

Ski design matters
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post #13 of 70
These:




These:


These (praxis):


And a whole lot more. Basically forget about carving and you'll be good.
post #14 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckInstructor View Post
I've gotta agree with Whiteroom here. I think the best way to avoid submarining in pow is to take a trip over to the Technique forums. AFAIK, there really isn't much you can do with ski design that will stop tip-dive, it's mostly a "software" problem.
I think that's a load of crap. The fat ski and reverse camber/sidecut craze has disproved this completely.
post #15 of 70
But in general, a soft, wide tip helps, even on a slalom ski. Also having some taper to the ski is good (tail significantly narrower than tip). If the tip is too stiff, it won't float, even if the ski is very fat. A good example of this is the Rossi Squad or Dynastar Legend Pro. These are somewhat fat skis, but they are far better suited to crud-busting than powder due to their very stiff tips. In contrast, on something like a gotama, the tip is soft and planes up on top.
post #16 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckInstructor View Post
I think the best way to avoid submarining in pow is to take a trip over to the Technique forums.
...
tip-dive, it's mostly a "software" problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
I think that's a load of crap. The fat ski and reverse camber/sidecut craze has disproved this completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
Style/techique will certainly contribute to tip dive (or lack thereof) but a powder ski with a wide soft tip will allow you to ski with your weight farther forward and also provide a bigger margin of error for forward/back weight shifts.
...
There's nothing like a ski with the right flex that allows you to stand in the middle and relax a little in the deep stuff, but as has been noted, that type tends to really suck on the hardpack.
My take, after reading the above, and combined with my own personal experience:

1) A skill skier can avoid tip dive by using the right technique. That's also my own personal experience, before and after taking a couple of lessons on powder, on the same "compromised" midfat ski.

2) But there're those who don't have the skill and don't want to "waste" a powder day to take lessons anyway. (let's face it, guys in the east and midwest sometimes don't get powder days ever after skiing 10 years!) Specialized powder skis mentioned above will make it possible for ANYONE, with minimum skill, to enjoy powder when they're lucky enough to hit upon one. It's just these kind of ski sucks on anything else. So beware, and don't be surprised if it doesn't get used for more than a day or two in a year. This works fine for those who live near a lot of powder, or those who can afford a large quiver.

3) Still, a lot of people don't have the money to afford a specialized ski for those few days of the year... Well, back to number 1, a compromise ski and the proper skill will work too.
post #17 of 70
Gratuitous Powder quiver pic;
165 Rocket/tele- wife loves powder now...
175 Rocket/comforts- for the long walks.
177 Mantra- only ski you really ever need- takes a tiny bit of effort to avoid tip dive in deep, nothing to worry about..
178 8800/speedpoints: the pass around ski
179 blem soft Bros/demos: so far so good (pretty new)
188 Sollie gun labs- for those 20+ days.
185 Chubbies- for my bro from NY who doesn't bother to haul them back east
Tip dive on any of these is much less of a problem than this season's lack of powder...
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post #18 of 70
Some relevant background stuff that might be of interest:

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=69

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...DN/20030141700

BTW - how many of the folks who stated that style/skill are the answer have actually skied a modern powder specialist ski (eg Pontoon, Dough Boy, Shaman, Lotus, Praxis, etc)? How about in deep heavy and/or crusted snow? I'm not saying that these skis are all similar - other than that they are designed with powder in mind and the ones I've skied are very resistant to tip dive...
post #19 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
a) Flex- a softer flexing tip will bend and 'seek the surface' of the snow. No real draw back outside of powder.

b) Mounting point- the farther back a ski is mounted the less likely it will be to dive. Can be difficult to initiate turns for skiers who 'tail gun'.

c) Tip profile- an extended tip that has a significant upsweep will want to stay on the surface. The sidecut should not continue past the contact point of the ski as it does on many carving skis, this will cause the ski to hook and sometimes to 'carve down' into the snow. Down side here is that you have extra swing weight.
Really good summary by Whiteroom. My Atomic Sweet Daddys have these features, and I have never felt tip dive on them. But they are also a bit tip-loose on packed snow (I have to stay forward to keep the tips engaged) and the soft tip has very little authority in crud. I guess I would lump the Sweets into the category of skis that dumb down powder skiing for anyone.

I actually like my Public Enemy skis in powder, but mounted them at +2.5 so that somewhat offsets the long, gradual extended tip. These skis will dive if I let them. But quite honestly, if I ski them right for powder, I might only notice the dive 1-2 times out of a whole day. So ultimately, I think technique is a very important factor in general.

I might add length to the list -- I didn't feel a whole lot of tip dive on my old skinny skis now that I think about it. Length had to be a factor there. This would put some ski float far out ahead of the skier, and with a rear-biased mount, would definitely rotate the tips up.
post #20 of 70
Any thoughts on the Atomic Metron MB5 's in Powder?
I am heading to Portillo this summer and am considering bringing them
post #21 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoturn View Post
Any thoughts on the Atomic Metron MB5 's in Powder?
I am heading to Portillo this summer and am considering bringing them
I skied the 172s in about a foot of powder at Vail last year. I didn't like them much, the tip is pretty stiff for powder, and they are really too short.

Others will disagree, but I didn't find them to be much better than my 165 SLRs.
post #22 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoturn View Post
Any thoughts on the Atomic Metron MB5 's in Powder?
I am heading to Portillo this summer and am considering bringing them
What are your other options?
post #23 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoturn View Post
Any thoughts on the Atomic Metron MB5 's in Powder?
I am heading to Portillo this summer and am considering bringing them
Reconsider. Demo or get a good deal on something fat while their on sale now. I've seen some sweet deals lately on fatties. Some Elan 1111's for one.http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55745
post #24 of 70
Between them, I have 40 or so days on B5s over the past 3 seasons (both 162 and 172 ). They have their virtues, but once you've skied a modern powder ski the notion of skiing a B5 in powder would make you cringe. I put maybe 3 days on the B5s this year...

As for the Elan 1111s - unless you are a fan of a super fat GS type skis and have the power to drive them & the finesse to manage them in powder, I'd look elsewhere (like see if ptex still has any Pontoons ).
post #25 of 70
outta of my quiver and used to owned skis here is my take in rating in powder

1. 183 Volkl Gotama - tip never dives, ski superbly in any sort of soft snow, makes any size turns at any speed anywhere. Also wont leave you hanging on hard pack.

2. 179 Public Enemy - a ski this skinny shouldnt ski powder this well. Not a surfer like the Gotama but you will never be off balance and the tip allways comes back up even if it a little more old school. face shot delight on this.

3. 184 Volkl Mantra - tip dive can be issue in light snow but it goes away in heavier denser stuff. IN fact in crud its better than the top two ski. But in fresh light powder the 2 softer twins beat it. If you could have only one ski this is it.

4. 183 Atomic Sugar Daddy - at high speeds in smooth snow this ski actually floated better than Mantra or PE but its stiff tail never felt comfortable to me. In untracked I was all over the place and the atomic center mount hurts it. The foam core doenst let you know whats goign on.

5. 173 Atomic Sugar Daddy - same as the 183 but shorter and there for less float. Where this ski actually acceled was maching groomers.

6. 162 Metron B5 - actually not a bad powder ski if your ok with turning and allways being on top of your feet. To catchy to open it up.

7. 170cm Atomic Sl-9 - soft big tip never dives but the skinny waist and huge tail made it a handfull sometimes.

I am looking for something longer to be more stable for comps next year and that very well might be a 192cm thugs. but for most people the Volkl Gotama is the best allround powder ski money can buy.
post #26 of 70
Here is another vote that some skis dive in powder and and the only way to avoid it is mount the bindings back or get other skis with softer tips.

dt
post #27 of 70
My deep snow quiver is a pair of 183 Goats, 185 Pocket Rockets and 177 Nordica Enforcers. I found the Enforcers to be absolutely hopeless in deep pow. Nothing would keep the tips from diving. They were great at destroying crud though.

My PRs are mounted right on the line, and I really prefer the slightly more centered mount compared to my Goats when the snow gets deep. The ski sinks in more evenly, but the tips will keep seeking the surface. With the Goats in certaon conditions, I will feel my quads burning because the tip stays up but it makes it feel like I am always going uphill.
post #28 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoturn View Post
Any thoughts on the Atomic Metron MB5 's in Powder?
I am heading to Portillo this summer and am considering bringing them
18 inches of freshies and i went right over tips"granted they were short at 162" went down like a cheap hooker .
post #29 of 70
Basically, it's all been said: soft long tips, length and, especially, good technique. I've got a pair of Monster 103's (which are supposed to be tip-dive machines) and I've never had any trouble with tip dive. In fact, I've never had any problem with tip dive on any skis including old straight GS skis. I'm also not a big fan of mounting skis behind the manufacturer's mounting point. I wonder how many people have turned perfectly good skis into swiss cheese when all they had to do was improve thier technique a bit.
post #30 of 70
That's why I don't re-drill, I change my boot size to move the mounting point back or forward. .
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