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The blind leading the blind... (or- A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!)  

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
This is a recent exchange which took place on realskiers… I almost blew milk out my nose when I read the reply….

Thread name- “Uneven weighting, inside ski bend, and carving”

The original post-

Originally posted by ilh-
“This is something I've been wondering about for a while. I understand how having most weight on the outside ski puts the maximum bend in it for the tightest carve. What happens to the inside ski in this scenario? It generally seems to have less bend, and photos generally seem to bear this out. How can the inside ski make a shorter radius turn on the inside with less bend? The answer would seem to imply some skidding/steering, but am I missing something?”

the reply- (my highlighting and underlining)

Originally posted by jbotti-
“I think the simple answer from a pure physics perspective is that the inside ski travels less distance and therefore does not need to bend as much because it does not need to carve as tight a turn.
Also, if you picked up the inside ski completely it will still travel at what ever arc the stance ski produces.


Others may have better, more in depth answers, JB. "




Geez- I can only hope so!

I’m sorry, but do you find this as laughable as I do? The original post asks a reasonable question, and from one of realskiers/PMTS’ more influential proponents comes this response?
I have to wonder about the true level of understanding of fundamental ski technique on realskiers. Does rote memorization of HH's books qualify as understanding? The above response certainly shows that it does not!

And I guess that anything not written in the book or quoted from HH, is open to re-interpretation. After the NEW defintions we have heard in a recent thread (which has gone on for far too long), I guess PMTS is now rewriting the physics textbooks to suit that limited knowledge.


WOW!… I guess PMTS really is cutting edge! :
post #2 of 14
I'm ilh. The second response to my question makes quite a bit more sense to me, but you didn't quote that one. Why not?

I can certainly sketch out ski tracks in closely-linked turns where the inside ski does not need to turn as sharply do to track separation increasing at the apex of the turn. This is the explanation in the second response.

I'm not interested in getting in the middle of a PMTS vs. the world argument, and am disappointed to have my post there cherry picked to be used as ammunition in this warfare. I am trying to learn more about the PMTS perspective since it seems to mesh with how I think I've been skiing for the past 28 years, but I'm trying to learn from all schools of thought. I have no desire for a single flavor of kook aid.

Do you have a good explanation for my original question?

--Lee
post #3 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
I’m sorry, but do you find this as laughable as I do?

Yes, I do, but this one made me laugh harder:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbotti
I spent the day yesterday forgoing playing in a foot of fresh snow (at Squaw and there was no one on the mountain!!) and instead I did one and two footed releases leading me into BPSRT's pretty much all day. This is the best thing that I have done for my skiing in a long time.
You spent a rare April powder day doing release drills on groomers. Brilliant :
post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
In all fairness to ilh, here is the 2nd response he refers to-

originally posted by Hobbit-
I suggest you search for the posts discussing vertical feet separation vs. horizontal separation. If the the inside ski is bent less it travels a straighter path which is OK.
Some people have a misconception that the ski tracks must be always parallel. This is not the case when the outside ski starts bending much more than the inside ski. If you watch the tracks in this case you will see that they are diverging towards the apex of the turn and converging back towards the transition. The vertical separation allows for that.
post #5 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
In all fairness to ilh, here is the 2nd response he refers to-

originally posted by Hobbit-
I suggest you search for the posts discussing vertical feet separation vs. horizontal separation. If the the inside ski is bent less it travels a straighter path which is OK.
Some people have a misconception that the ski tracks must be always parallel. This is not the case when the outside ski starts bending much more than the inside ski. If you watch the tracks in this case you will see that they are diverging towards the apex of the turn and converging back towards the transition. The vertical separation allows for that.
Hey VSP, Have a great summer in Houston!
post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
I’m sorry, but do you find this as laughable as I do? The original post asks a reasonable question, and from one of realskiers/PMTS’ more influential proponents comes this response?
It's worth pointing out that this is one of the more complex and perhaps least understood topics relating to the inside ski. I would suggest you do a search on Epic and notice the wide range of confusion over this very topic.

Here is a great thread that gets into the nuts and bots of inside ski bending.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=24613
post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 
ilh-
I was not trying to get you involved in another P vs P pi$$ing match.

I was making a point that many on realskiers will spout gospel and verse, according to HH, but have no real functional understanding of their own. This particular exchange highlighted that fact to an unprecedented level, as JB is a highly recognizable HH disciple.

After a thread which has run over 1000 posts (and still going for some reason), it has shown time and time again that MAX's acquired knowledge is only from a book or quotes from HH, rather than from any degree of self actualization or self exploration. To some extent, this is understandable, as neither of those are allowed within the PMTS system.
Yet they attempt to speak as if they had a depth of understanding they do not have. In the attempt to regurgitate HH's teachings, they get confused and thusly their comments rarely have any semblance of reality. And the more frequently these confused meanderings are repeated, the more they seem to believe them. Therefore, my mirth at JB's comments.

Since many strong PMTS proponents have selective hearing, that handicap will limit their future growth as skiers. But I believe it is an affliction which can be outgrown. And for the sake of those who do have this impairment, I hope they do!
post #8 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
I almost blew milk out my nose when I read the reply….
A picture is worth a 1000 words.
post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilh View Post
Do you have a good explanation for my original question?
Yes, you answered correctly in your original question. You have to lighten the inside foot so it's easier to steer through a path similar to the outside ski (if you believe steering exists). If not you end up with answers like jbotti's, which unless they live in a parallel universe where the laws of physics are different that this one, is CONTRAY to the laws of physics that most of us operate under....
post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
After a thread which has run over 1000 posts (and still going for some reason), it has shown time and time again that MAX's acquired knowledge is only from a book or quotes from HH, rather than from any degree of self actualization or self exploration.
Are you sure? This post from the BPST thread would suggest otherwise:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Wow, condescending yet again. Why make such a statement?

I suspect its because I've said I don't question what Harald wants me to do. I just do it and I improve. But how did a technical guy like myself get to a point where I was comfortable giving that level of trust to Harald? Well, lets take a look and see if I'm really 'blind' with regards to ski knowledge. I ski with our local Masters racers, I spend lots of time with the junior coaches, and I have skied with a few PSIA guys. So I have seen where different types of instruction can take a skier. I have also seen some rather large differences between the ability levels of different coaches/instructors.

As you might guess I have all of Harald's books including the PMTS Instructors Manual and the Harb Skier Alignment System Technical Manual (that thing is jam packed full of skier related biomechanics that any serious instructor should be aware of).

On my bookshelf I have the following books which I've taken the time to read:

Ski the Whole Mountain by Eric and Rob DesLauriers
The Athletic Skier by Warren Witherell and David Evrard
The All-Mountain Skier by Mark Elling
Ski Faster by Lisa Feinberg Densmore
The Skier's Edge by Ron LeMaster
Mogul Skiing by Dan DiPiro
Athletic Body in Balance by Gray Cook
Movement that Matters by Paul Chek

In addition I have a bunch of DVDs including Lito's stuff, US Ski Team stuff, and Warren Miller films.

And lets not forget Epic as an interesting source of ski knowledge.

I am able to give Harald my trust because I have no doubts about his ability to take my skiing to the highest level possible for my age and physical condition. I have no doubts because of my experience as a skier and the research I have done. In my opinion Harald is one of the best out there.
post #11 of 14
This is going to be entertaining. We should sell tickets to these things.
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
ilh-
I was not trying to get you involved in another P vs P pi$$ing match.

I was making a point that many on realskiers will spout gospel and verse, according to HH, but have no real functional understanding of their own. This particular exchange highlighted that fact to an unprecedented level, as JB is a highly recognizable HH disciple.

After a thread which has run over 1000 posts (and still going for some reason), it has shown time and time again that MAX's acquired knowledge is only from a book or quotes from HH, rather than from any degree of self actualization or self exploration. To some extent, this is understandable, as neither of those are allowed within the PMTS system.
Yet they attempt to speak as if they had a depth of understanding they do not have. In the attempt to regurgitate HH's teachings, they get confused and thusly their comments rarely have any semblance of reality. And the more frequently these confused meanderings are repeated, the more they seem to believe them. Therefore, my mirth at JB's comments.

Since many strong PMTS proponents have selective hearing, that handicap will limit their future growth as skiers. But I believe it is an affliction which can be outgrown. And for the sake of those who do have this impairment, I hope they do!
The lack of willingness to explore is yours not Max's. You're an old stuck in the mud PSIA dinosaur unwilling to let go of the little bit of self-proclaimed expertise you have to open your mind up to a new perspective.

As for practical knowledge, Max is at the start of his ski experience not at the end as you are.

As for functional knowledge, your MA on him was so far off the mark that it proves how little the self proclaimed experts actually know.

What's wrong with being a follower? Nothing as long as you're following teh right person. The Max thread clearly shows that he is following teh right person. The guy proved that he has as much understanding and technical knowledge 99% of the "instructors" here. As hard as you guys gang banged him he stood his ground very well and showed real understanding.

I guess that HH and his books must really be a threat to PSIA for people to constantly be looking for ways to knock him. You should check out the Max501 thread on realskiers. You might actually learn something.

I'd like to see video of you or any of PSIA team free skiing at Harbs level. I know there's nothing in the go with a pro video and more improtantly I'd like tos ee any of you be able to communicate and teach verbally or in writing as effectively as he does.
post #13 of 14
Wasn't jbotti just trying to say the same this as Hobbit, but not saying it very well? I'm not sure what's so laughable about that, and I'm certainly not sure that mocking a student for trying and failing to express their understanding and help someone else is very productive.

Talking about skiing on the internet is a hazardous business. I know I've failed utterly to make clear what I was trying to say on any number of occasions. We should cut one another some slack, okay?
post #14 of 14
After receiving complaints regarding this thread and discussion among the moderators, this thread has been closed. EpicSki does not allow personal attacks, and is officially technique and teaching system neutral. Attacks on techniques and teaching systems do not appear to be in the best interest of encouraging an open and welcoming instruction and technique forum.
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