Jr GS skis, how long is too long?

How old is she?

"First year J4 next year" = 11 years old at the end of 2007.

I have no answers and the same question for an older kid (14 years) who is 5 ft, 115lbs, can ski down anything but needs work on technique - he is usually closer to back of the pack in race results.

It would be helpful if one of the industry experts could post a general guideline for Juniors such as:

GS Ski Length:
1) Start at Head height
2 Add 5cm if aggressive/experienced, deduct 5cm if non-aggressive, entry level
3) Add 5cm if heavier/strong, deduct 5 cm if lighter/less athletic

NOTE: To be clear, I am not saying that is the correct guideline, I don;t know what the correct guideline is. I am asking if one of the industry / race 'coaching' experts could provide such a general guideline.

Mostly it's the post season and talking about ski lengths mitigates the withdrawal symptoms.

Thanks,
Gord

This was posted here at Epic last fall from a very experienced, full time JIV Coach. Hope this helps. Good advise and guidelines. The youngster's coach will provide the best advise. If you don't trust your coach, get involved in a program where you can.



Sizing junior GS skis:

Find athlete height in cm. 5' = 60" x 2.54 = 152cm

Based on skill level, we have three choices:

Learning to race: = to height. +0cm. 150 - 153

Gaining experience, middle of the pack: +5cm. 153-157ish

Strong skills, podium level skier: +10cm. 160-163.

This GS sizing system has been effective for sizing 12 and unders and applies well, in general, at the 13-14 year level too. However, not until the JIII level do we consider a ski as large as +15cm.

Keep in mind we are matching sizing based on numbers, not standing the ski next to the skier, as a 152's cord length is shorter.

So calculate height, then choose based on skill. Assertieness of the athlete should then be considered. Different brands encourage different dynamics. As an example, a highly skilled 145cm (4'9") JIV girl may ski very well on a 161 Nordica, but on a Fischer a 155 is the choice.

Atomic and Fischer are generally more aggressive skis. Nordica and Salomon are more even keeled and predictable. Most other jr. skis fall in between these ranges.

Finally, where do you ski and race. Athletes who have full mountain experience available (1500+ vertical) will enjoy the stability of a "more" ski and will probably train on real GS courses. Smaller mountains tend to set a more modified version of GS (where speed is less of an element), In this case, a more manageable ski, in a bit shorter length makes sense.

As a side note, I stand 178cm. As an elite I would race on a 193. As a state level athlete I would be in the 188 range. If I was just learning to race, skis in the 178-183 range would be my best selection.

The common mistake I see with SL and GS skis is to go too long for the ability level of the skier. Longer skis generally take higher skills to carve the course so what happens is the kids that lack strong carving skills end up pivoting and skidding the longer skis too much.

My experience is that the lengths suggested above are too long for most J5s and probably many lower skilled J4s.

Isn't weight more important then height?

My oldest son is 11 (-96), 147 cm and lightweighted and used Dynastar 156 cm in the end of this season. Next year I don't know if we should continue with 156 or start with 164 cm. There is also a 3 m radius difference, 156 are r=15 and the 164 is r=18.

As a parent to two racing kids I think it's very difficult to choose the most suitable skis. Not to long, not to short and not to stiff. If you ask experts (aka coaches, race salesmen etc) they all have different opinions of which ski to choose.

Suggestions?

I would stay on 156 - +10 is enough. Give him a break, he's still learning, growing and gaining strength.

+15 is madness.

Maybe, maybe not. There were a few boys (an girls) that already this season had GS skis > 160 cm. My son started the season on 147 cm and switched in the middle. I think he did a lot better on the longer skis. And we don't know how much he grows until next season.

His last race of the season, and probably his best:

http://www.skiteam.se/filmer2006/Seb...up2007_ak1.mpg

Christer,

This past autumn a similar dilemma: 12 yr old boy (95) skied a 156 Dynastar, barely grew, so going to the 164 was out but his skill warranted more ski.....

We compromised by changing brands - went to an Atomic GS 12 in a 158... it was a good choice - not so much the 2cm, but giving him a stronger, "edgier" ski v. the Dynastar without the added length.

The kid struggled as the season went on - his base bevel somehow got out of whack - we adjusted it the week before states (NH), and his skiing began to click - in March in GS he won the both the Piche and Winter Finish, and 2nd at the Bean.

Sorry, I can't view that, I have old version on a locked down machine.

Sure, some kids can bend a bigger ski, and maybe your's is one of them.... but, added length also means added stiffness, which someone that is not yet 12 yrs old may not be able to manage. Sure, they'll go faster in a straight line, anyone would. But you'll need a LOT of altheticism and strength to really bend that longer ski and ski it well.

I have my own racers, and they are good too. Suppose that you add the max 2 years ability to the 11 year old -- that would make him ski like a 13 yr old. Maybe the longer ski would work, but he's got to be that strong and athletic and big. If he is not, his technique will suffer, and so will his development.

IMO, I'd stay on the shorter ski. It is easier to ski. He's got lots of time to develop better technique before using longer boards.

Here is the same video in wmv if you can view that:
http://www.skiteam.se/filmer2006/SalenCupak1.wmv


whygimf, What SL ski did your son have last season? And which skis (GS and SL) will he have next season? It's kind of interest because my son is going to be first year B (in sweden) next season and compete with the boys born 95.

We're gonna have both 156 and 164 when the season start so we have to wait and see which ski he will start pre-seaon on. It will probably be the 156. In SL we're gonna continue with the Dynastar 136. Maybe have to switch in the middle to end season.


Talking about length we also have a girl (-98) and we think she will have 147 (Dynastar) in GS next season and Rossi 130 in SL.

Anyone have any opinion on how different stiffness is in the junior lines, for instance, Nordica versus Dynastar?

All the adult ski reviews desribe Atomic, Nordica as stronger/stiffer skis and Dynastar or Rossi as easier to bend / softer

Do you think these "brand" characteristics hold true in the junior lines?

Here's some additional info. Stats for the last season: J5 (10 yrs old), weight 80lbs (36kg) and 54in (138cm) tall. At the beginning of the season we used a 130cm for SL and a 140cm for GS. However, for one GS race I mistakenly brought the 130cm and much to my surprise the shorter ski was faster. Turns out that he was doing a better job of carving the top of the turn on the 130cm skis. So, we used those for the rest of the season with good results.

I'm not saying this formula will work for everyone, but I do think it makes sense to take a good look at your child's current technique when selecting sizes. For GS if they are not carving the turn from top to bottom then it might be because of technique or perhaps the ski is too long. If you have some good video watch it frame by frame to see if you can figure out which it is. If you cannot figure out what is going on then perhaps ask the coach to review the video and give you his opinion. I do think that a ski that is too long will slow down technical development which I think is more important for yielding good times on the course.

Hi Max,

Much validity in what you write. In expanding the GS selection process another element comes into consideration - speed.

GS is now a speed event. The kids are hauling. Nature of the beast. OK, maybe not at the J5 or possibly at the J4 level. Older? GS has a distinct element of speed. Period.

When free skiing, encouraging hauling a** is a given - we're learning to enjoy speed. Yep. We're rollin'! It's good.

So, speed is an element. It needs to be trained in and out of the gates.

Short term, staying with a shorter ski may reflect encouraging results, but is the skier's long term development compromised with staying on a more conservative length - those who ski on shorter skis generally spend less time and are less confident in the fall line.

Young racers should be on skis (not SL) that encourage exploring the fall line. So, it's a balance.

There's no way to track the development success of either (longer/shorter), yet I'm certain both have been successful.

The sizes proposed to begin this thread have proven to work well for us in one-on-one sizing for 80 9-12 yr old athletes annually. We have much pride in the success of all of our participants.

He was an athlete I worked with the past two seasons. Generally, a sub-140 SL would be small for a 12 yr old. So I suspect he was on the 140+ Atomic (141 144?)

Season to season I don't think too much about sizing the youngsters until I see 'em in the fall. Alot of physical changes can happen within this age group over the summer. It's not uncommon that a 10cm jump in sizing is necessary from season to season. And, we've kept the same lengths year over year too.

It's a really fun process choosing the ski; skill, ability, assertiveness, desire for speed, focus, momentum in learning, snow-ski awareness all weigh in making a reasonable ski length decision. Have we worked with athleets where we've needed to change lengths as the season goes on? Yes. Have we experimented with trying different lengths into the season? Yes.

Please consider too that mid-150 is where jr GS skis go from 14 to 17m radius. With our best skiers, we want to get to 17m as soon as we can - generally 11 years.

Frankly, I'd like to see the companies make a 17m at 148, 153. And correspondingly, make 21m at 163, 168. The shorter the radius, the more the ski searches to go across the hill. I like GS skis that encourage less hooking. Again, skilled youngsters.

Soft end (in order)- Nordica. Provides a lovely arc, very consistent, forgiving and holds extremely well. We're big fans. In the GS it needs to be skied +5cm more than any other. Have skied it on small and large kids - elite and learning - performs for all - tend to recommend as a young ladies ski.

Dynastar. Good. Bends a really good arc. Has a nice sweet spot. The SL is excellent. The GS has been suspect, but this past season they were a nice surprise and were real weapons. Excellent product. Weird GS sizing range.

Salomon - They just aren't around any more - so, we don't play. Very soft and skied center only. They don't like fore-aft pressure changes.

Rossi - They're a crapshoot. Who knows what's under the skin? Some kids ski good on 'em, and for others it doesn't do anything for them, so I don't know when it's working because their manufacturing happened to spit out a good pair, or that athlete got on someone's list for good skis. Middle of the road stiffness, although their Jr SL is getting beefier.

Volkl - Good sticks. The SL does what it's supposed to do as well as promotes learning. We were challenged with one particular length in GS this past season, but overall, it taught and raced well. Not sure if it's the fastest jr ski, but, I'd put any kid on 'em and they won't be slow.

Fischer - Now we're into firmer toys. Athletes who like a strong platform and aren't afraid of tipping the ski alot can get as much as they want out of being on Fischer. They aren't forgiving, but they are predictable. I like these skis. On the right athlete.

Atomic - I have felt for a number of years that these skis are too torsionally stiff for this age group. The story shared above about moving the kid to Atomic from Dynastar was my fist foray into recommending an Atomic to an athlete in probably 8 years? I liked the way it looked on the snow this winter. It is still torsionally stiff, and unless the kid is able to potentially podium at the reg/nat level... it's too much for most. It is not a learning ski.

Elan - dunno, don't sell 'em in our neck of the woods. Probably on the Nord/Dyn stiffness level. It look like it skis 'deader' - a bit sluggish.

Head - No presence in the jr race market in our neck of the woods. Yet.

K2 - who?

So, Volkl, Dynastar and Nordica are the most forgiving for learning and yet able to win at any level. Fischer you can learn on but the athlete better have gumption and a real mtn sparkle. Atomic? You got kids good enough? You're doing better than most.

The above are just personal observations of race skiis 170 and smaller. I don't do much for ski size matching at 13 yr up, other than for athletes who ask for my guidance as they move up in age group. With all ski selections, we make every effort to involve the youngster in the process to help their understanding of why we chose what was best for them. We want them to have full confidence in their new toys.

Isn't 144 cm a bit long for a 12 yr old? Only 11 cm shorter then what Anja Parsson is having.

It depends on the height of the child. 157 cm 10 yr old on 140 SL last season worked great.

Thank you for posting the video. I would not move up a size. My philosophy is that the early years are for perfecting technique. A longer ski that demands more power output from the skier will not help that goal.

Hope that helps.

What about Super-G, when do you start training and compete in SG in the US? Do the the kids use SG skis right away or do they start with GS skis?

In Sweden the kids start competing regularly in SG at age 12-13.

Super G is, I believe, for J4 and up, i.e. age 11+.

Sanctioned downhills are limited to J3 and up, as in at least age 13.

My 8 yr old son is 126 cm tall and 60 lbs, and he skis a Solly Race 120 SL and 135 GS ski. He was skiing a recreational 110 Fischer last season, and he didn't grow a lot (maybe 5 cm) so I was a little worried about the jump, especially the GS ski. But he seems to be working the skis well.

There should be a lower length and radius restriction set by the racing body.

Kids are being introduced to SG this year ( K1 ) which is 11-12 y.o. The have a two day camp and a single race at the end of the camp.

race stock

Yes, these are race stock skis purchased from a reputable shop. However, as I understand it, they are "softer" than other similar race stock skis. He has Marker race plates and Marker Bindings (7???) mounted to both, so the plates make it a bit stiffer I supposed. He's short and not very heavy, but his balance and strength are up there on the charts. He has no trouble whatsoever with either of the skis, and rips both of them equally well. In fact, I would guess that getting on these better, stiffer and longer skis has helped, not hindered, his advancement. He just finished up his first race of the year and did extremely well, posting fastest and second fastest times in both GS and SL. He's literally 35-50% lighter than most of the kids he's racing against and probably 4-6 in shorter (by the looks of the podium). Bottom line, I asked his coach a few weeks ago if I should break out the longer GS skis which I was holding back out of fear (nearly 10 cm taller than him) and he didn't hesitate to say yes. I was second guessing him all along the way....but you know what, the coaches I have found know best. The best advice is to listen to those who are most instrumental in their development and know their abilities in relation to experiences with other racers in the past.

Wow..so I am not the only one with sizing questions...glad i found this site.

 

So my concerns/questions.

 

I have a 3rd year J5 this year. he has been on skis since he was two and racing for 5 years now. He is a student of the sport and his coaches tell me he listens and executes very well and is often used as the examplel. My issue is he is all of 130CM in hs socks  and weighs about 63 ibs. He is agressive and does very well on the technical "turny courses" vs the more straight course...my guess is it is a function of weight and degree of difficulty of course.? He made state champs last year as a 2nd year 5 as he nailed hils last SL event...a very tech course. He skied both events( GS and SL) in SL skis and jumped 30 spots by th e end of the weekend only 3 or 4 2nd year 5's ahead of him) He skied on 130 Vokyl Race tiger SL skis last year.  I kept him off GS skis until the end of the year where he tried the Vokly ( 142CM) race tiger GS and the Rossi JS ( 144 CM).

 

So this year I will start him off with a pair of SL and GS skis...your advice here please. I have asked so many coaches etc and I am more confused than ever..they say becasue he is so light he needs a less stiff ski or he won't bend them.  I watched him last year when he tried the Vokyl and Rossi GS skis.....he said he loved  the Vokyls more than the Rossi...he skied them both well and he did bend them..laid right over on them.  Once up to speed he flew on them and iniated his turns well...(1st gates usually a little challenge due to lack of speed)  I am wide open your advice...what would you suggest for a ski for him?  I am open to any brand even though he seems to like the Vokyl.  Size?

 

 

While I have you..boot wise..he skied a Lange race boot which were stiff but once modified by a boot fitter he seemd to do fine in them...His foot has grown so likley a new boot for him as well....any suggestions?

 

Thanks!!
 

 

 

SL Dynastar/Ross 125 cm or 132 cm

GS Dynastar/Ross 140 cm

 

Why not continue with lange? Race 70 Team is a great boot that you can make softer if needed.

 

Here is another old thread with size discussions http://www.epicski.com/t/91190/ski-length-for-racing-kids-here-is-the-answer-4-years-later