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Head XRC Binding help

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I want a pair of XRC 1200's cause despite being short and skinny super shaped they are actually very very very fun to ski. So I look around and see that there are a pair for sale on here for a pretty good price, only problem is the binding. Rail flex 12's. That will not work I run a 13.5 toe 13 Heel on my mojo 15's right now. So I was looking at tyrolias website and noticed that the highest railflex is a 14, which is not enough considering that I am still growing and gaining weight and I'd like a little more than .5 a din setting to go up. So what can I do? are these skis ever sold with out the railflex systems? or do I have to yank the rail off and put a pair of bidings on the flat ski? Can I even do that, is the ski flat underneeth? am I just destined to not ski these?
post #2 of 24
The answer is sack up and get a race ski if you want to carve. That way you can put whatever bindings you want on there.
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
The answer is sack up and get a race ski if you want to carve. That way you can put whatever bindings you want on there.
post #4 of 24
If a 14 DIN really isn't enough for you, have a look at the Supershape Speed or the previous year's XRC1200. It's a different but similar ski - sandwich construction, 15m radius, slightly narrower at 67mm, but really good high performance stuff. It comes with the 13mm 'CarvePlate' so you can slap on some FreeFlex 17's.
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
So there really is no way i'm getting on this ski? Damn.
post #6 of 24
I've got a pair of Elan SLX Fusions with 12 DIN bindings on them that I set to 10 and they've yet to release me (5'10" 200lb 295cm boot sole). Remember, you're going to be putting way less strain on these things if you're just carving on the groomed.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Seems stupid to argue din settings a 13 will not hold me in on my other tyrolias I doubt it will hold me in on this pair. I also wasnt planning on just having these on the groomed
post #8 of 24
philT:

A couple of thoughts (but not for sure). The '07 1200 is basically the same ski as the 1100 RD from earlier years, and I think those came with the carve plate, and I believe there was a free-flex binding for that plate that had a DIN of 17. (I was actually surprised to see that, as you said, 14 is the highest binding with the Railflex). (Sorry, just saw that CanuckInstructor said the same thing)

The other thing you might consider is how the bindings are mounted on your Mojo's. If they are flat mounted, then the requirement for high DIN releases may be the result of varying forward pressure as the ski flexes and rebounds. Especially on the rebound, the bindings move away from the heel and toe a little bit, effectively lowering the DIN. That doesn't happen with the railflex, because the bindings float on the rail. Of course, I wouldn't invest in a new ski and binding "hoping" that this is the reason for high DIN settings, but I cut my DIN settings back to chart values with the Railflex setup and have never had pre-releases so never cranked the bindings back up (but I was never anywhere near a 13).
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
They are flat mounted I never considered how that might affect the settings. Seems to me though that the amound the ski will bend under foot would not really affect binding release because the amout the binding will move is minimal and all it would be doing is effectivly lowering the forward pressure which if the forward pressure is set high(mine is) would not affect release, I think.

Good food for thought but not really a solution are there any supernotsosecret higher Din RF bindings that arnt on the web site, kinda like the mojo20 and the FF20.
post #10 of 24
That was sort of my point, that you may currently have to use the DIN of 13 to keep from pre-releasing because the binding IS moving away from the boot when the ski decambers (or cambers, whichever) and that you could ski a 10 or something in a Railflex.

I agree it's not a solution (because it's not easily testable). It is interesting that none of the Tyrolia (Head or Fischer) factory setups see a need for anything more than a DIN of 14 for Railflex skis when they have 17's for carving plates and 20 for the flat mount setups.
post #11 of 24
PhilT:

Just an off the wall thought. Are you sure that the forward pressure is set correctly on your bindings? I first learned this lesson when I had a shop mount new bindings and they didn't set forward pressure (at all). In my case, I almost twisted my knee off because the bindings wouldn't release, but too much forward pressure would have the opposite effect.

You haven't said how big you are, how long your boot sole is,or how you ski so I don't know whether 13 is real high or not.
post #12 of 24
13 is real high. Im 6'3" 225# 314mm and ski at 11.5 toe/ 13 heel (BTW, why would you set the toe higher than the heel? High speed pivots?)

When you decamber a ski (flex it while arcing a turn) fwd pressure increases, if you are setting your bindings with a lot of fp from the start this could be causing release. Try going right in the center of the fp scale.

Railflex skis are all targeted at recreational skiers, high performance skiers perhaps, but recreational. The DIN 17, 18, 20 (they make a DIN 45 speed event binding) are for competition. If you need a 13+ DIN you have "special needs".

Good news is the XRC 1200 is flat under the plate, swap it for a CP13 plate ($25-$50) and put a Mojo 15 (PM me if you want a Mojo20x or FF+18dx) or FF+17 and your good to go.
post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
13 is real high. Im 6'3" 225# 314mm and ski at 11.5 toe/ 13 heel (BTW, why would you set the toe higher than the heel? High speed pivots?)

When you decamber a ski (flex it while arcing a turn) fwd pressure increases, if you are setting your bindings with a lot of fp from the start this could be causing release. Try going right in the center of the fp scale.

Railflex skis are all targeted at recreational skiers, high performance skiers perhaps, but recreational. The DIN 17, 18, 20 (they make a DIN 45 speed event binding) are for competition. If you need a 13+ DIN you have "special needs".

Good news is the XRC 1200 is flat under the plate, swap it for a CP13 plate ($25-$50) and put a Mojo 15 (PM me if you want a Mojo20x or FF+18dx) or FF+17 and your good to go.
I set my toe higher because I prerelease from the toe more now, my din setting is not arbitrary, it has increased steadily all year due to the fact that I am pre releasing at the given setting, each time I prerelease I bump which piece(toe or heel) I released from up .5 or so. At the speeds needed for a prerelease at a DIN of 13 the prereleases aren't pretty which is why I increase after each prerelease.

My forward pressure is set at 3/4 of the way forward, this solves another prerelease problem. I have also had the bindings tested repeatedly and they release within the appropriate range.

If indeed the 1200 is flat underneeth I'll just yank it and put a plate down which takes looks or sollys im not sure whether it is the bindings design or not but I dont think I should have to have a din of 13 but I need it, hopefully with a different brand I'll find a can set it lower..

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
You haven't said how big you are, how long your boot sole is,or how you ski so I don't know whether 13 is real high or not.
6'3"-6'4" 180lbs 315mm Bootsole.
post #14 of 24
PhilT:

Since summer is coming on, I would encourage you to read the stuff from Vermont Skier Safety in between ski season. This particular write-up is about diagnosing the reasons for pre-release as well as some interesting findings (such as the statement that "All research efforts to date show that the magnitude of the load a skier applies to a modern binding toe piece decreases with speed (even during competition)..."

http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_..._skiers_8.html

Another well written discussion talks about how to avoid "Phantom Foot" ACL injuries, and National Ski Patrol decided to present this to all of their patrollers 7 or so years back.
post #15 of 24
Gandalf that is a great link that everyone should read.

The term 'PRErelease' is the most over used term with ski gear. there is almost ALWAYS a reason the binding released, usually due to skier input.

"I don't want my binding to PRErelease..."

No, you don't want your ski to release at all. That's fine. I understand that, but don't say the bindings are in some way faulty. They release when enough force to release them has been generated. That's what they are designed to do.

PhilT, you will probably really like the elastic travel that Look/Rossi bindings have. The P18/ FKS 185/155 is just the ticket.
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Gandalf that is a great link that everyone should read.

The term 'PRErelease' is the most over used term with ski gear. there is almost ALWAYS a reason the binding released, usually due to skier input.

"I don't want my binding to PRErelease..."

No, you don't want your ski to release at all. That's fine. I understand that, but don't say the bindings are in some way faulty. They release when enough force to release them has been generated. That's what they are designed to do.

PhilT, you will probably really like the elastic travel that Look/Rossi bindings have. The P18/ FKS 185/155 is just the ticket.
Your right I was incorrectly using the term prerelease, I have had my bindings tested and they release with in the appropriate range, there for they are not prereleasing. However they are releasing without a fall involved so they are letting me go too early, what shoud a call that? "Skiing with bindings releasing appropriatly for an inappropriate DIN setting", seems too cumbersome and, for no reason other than what other people say, I feel slightly scared having my bindings set there and do not think that I should need a DIN that high, but I do.

Most of my heel releases happen when hitting frozen avi debris or other crud at high speeds or when my skis get sucked off my feet be some really sticky snow, and my last couple of toe releases have happend when I am making a large carve and my skis are kind of far away from my body and the skis get caught on some sort of frozen crud when they are coming back around which prevents them from making it back under my feet and my feet just pull out.

Im glad about what you say about the looks as I just bought a pair of zr18's for another new pair of skis.
post #17 of 24
I have MOJO 15's on a im88 mounted flat on the ski 175cm. i am 6'0 189 lbs. boot sole 310 (shorter boot, requires higher DIN setting).

I ski mine on 9.5. Have never released, ever!!!!!

Something is amiss with your setup or your technique. At 180 lbs. No way should you have to set your bindings on 13. And if it was because of your height and due to extra leverage because of long tibia's it would be the heel releasing not the toe.

My guess is you get light and lose pressure somehow on your outside ski at just the wrong part of the turn. In addition if you are outside ski is horizontally displaced (A nice way to say skidding) at the wrong moment and your ski hits a rut or rough feature with loss of pressure you are coming out, period. No binding made will keep you in in these situations

Read the Vermont article, your answer is in there!

I don't think I have had a ski release in the last 5 years. Maybe longer!

When people describe my skiing they always use the word Smooth!
post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
ATOMICMAN skis on heads::::::::: :::::



no seriously I don't think I sould be on 13 either but I am prereleasing on lower settings there for I have moved them up. Most of my releases have been from the heel and usually come when I am fighting the snow.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
ATOMICMAN skis on heads::::::::: :::::



no seriously I don't think I sould be on 13 either but I am prereleasing on lower settings there for I have moved them up. Most of my releases have been from the heel and usually come when I am fighting the snow.
Don't like the ring of Headman! Not going there!
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
I set my toe higher because I prerelease from the toe more now,
??????:
post #21 of 24
PhilT:

I don't think you were using the term pre-release wrong. To me it's anytime when we wouldn't expect to have the ski release. I don't have an answer for you, but I agree that 13 is high. I'm 5'11", 317 boot sole, and weigh about 190. I'm 58, and I ski all of the time now on a DIN of 7 and haven't had a pre-release in the last 5 years.

Quote:
Most of my heel releases happen when hitting frozen avi debris or other crud at high speeds or when my skis get sucked off my feet be some really sticky snow,...
For example, the one above sounds a lot like the following description, a case where the ski meets extra resistance at the same time that there is lots of pressure against the shin.

"....is precipitated by the skier driving his or her shin rapidly forward at the same time as the forebody of the ski flexes sharply. The inadvertent coordination of these movements by a skier who is otherwise erect and in balance can put the lower leg momentarily in tension, thereby allowing the skier to pull the heel piece open with no apparent effort. This classical example of poor technique (bad software) can only be avoided through education--smoother, better coordinated technique. Cranking up the heel piece is not necessarily the solution. Once learned by our testers, this scenario could be repeated, even at release settings on the heel piece well beyond the setting range of any binding now available to the public. "

My real concern is that you are setting yourself up for a knee injury by ratcheting the DIN settings up to a level that they won't release when you get in a situation where they really should. Maybe you can expirement some with the other ski/binding pair, start with lower DIN and see if the same problem exists (or maybe ask someone from Epic that skis the same places you do to watch you)?
post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
I m going to start lower on the din scale on my other pair of skis with looks and see if I have the same problem, my friend doug has prereleased from 11 on his FF17's several times and he is 160lbs so I'm thinking it may be the bindings.

as for the technique thing im not really sure what you are saying I should do differently, when I hit a sticky (stickier than the surronding) patch of snow I feel the ski slow down while the other ski and my body are moving at the current speed I have been taught to strengthen my stance and just hold the ski steady with my legs and "power through" the slow down rather than allowing the ski to be grabed causing me to crash. What happens when I stregthen my stance as I have learned is normally the ski is pulled over the sticky section of snow and all is as normal but sometimes when I am really going fast and the snow is really sticky I hold on as I normally do and the ski is pulled hard enough for a upward (i think) release from the heel. I dont really understand what it is I should do differently in this situation? btw the fore body of the ski isnt usually flexing at all when this has happend to me
post #23 of 24
Also have FF 17+ on Head Supershape Speed 177cm & Head i.sl Rd Vist 165cm

Both on 9.5 not one release this season!

Only ski the above on groomed snow though but have skied the Ss speed in bumps!
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
I also ski my tyrolias on groomed and in bumps! (and off cliffs)
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