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Rotary, active vs. passive - Page 2

post #31 of 222
Yikes, brushed carves. Another term that gets my goat. Is that kinda like being a little pregnant? :
post #32 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
As PSIA moves and evolves I am finding that the better and enlightened coaches I have encountered are all talking about movements or movement patterns rather than skills. Yes the skills are there Balance, Edge, Rotary, Pressure. But it's how we blend the skills to create MOVEMENTS that change our skiing for the better or worse.
Yes, PSIA has always been trendy, and most of the rank and file are quick to jump on the latest bandwagon, sometimes at the expense of full understanding. What follows is usually an over focus on the latest focus, and a discard of the rest of the important fundamentals.

"Hey, did you hear? We no longer are focusing on skills, we're focusing on movements".

"Really? Cool!"

So basic skill development will go out the window, and "well informed" teachers will be trying to blend into modern movements patterns skills their students have yet to develop.

Ah, so it goes. A new season, a new trend.
post #33 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
After reading some of the posts in "BPST" I think I just learned a clearer understanding of PMTS. My original understanding was that PMTS trys to avoid any rotary movements. Now I think I understand a bit more clearly but correct me if I am wrong.

It would seem that rotary is acceptable and acknowledged if it is "passive" vs. "active", (a secondary movement rather than primary) in other words the skier should not actively use rotary movements which are generated by muscle contractions to create turning powers. Rather, it is acceptable to use the "anticipation release" or passive unwinding of the muscles, stretched during counter movements?


civilly!, because I sincerely want to understand this as clearly as possible.

b
Bud:

I think you are 'sort of' right. When you make PMTS turns, the femurs ARE going to rotate in the sockets. However, the primary part of this movement is getting the skis on edge and letting the skis turn, so the passive rotary is the rotating legs (from the skis turning) in relatively unmoving hip socket. This isn't quite the same as what I think you were referring to in the 'anticipated release' (sounds like a term Lito used on his breakthrough on skis video) because in that there is still twisting force imparted to the legs from the top down because of the tension in the muscles?? What PMTS is saying is that "yes the femurs rotate in the hip socket" but "no, leg muscles are not used to initiate or contribute to this rotation."


Dynamic anticipation. As of the camp I took in Dec. 05, PMTS didn't teach facing down the hill because it's not going to use dynamic anticipation as part of the coming turn. This is supposed to be in the current book and I'm not a good one to explain, but the focus is on angulation and getting the hips inside the turn and the upper body over the outside ski real high in the turn (even during transition) and then riding the ski around the turn (that may not be the right term). The drill was, during transition, having the shoulders squared to a point some 20 degrees uphill from the turn. There was no focus on having the shoulders squared and facing down the fall line.
post #34 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
What you really should be asking is what PMTS does differently to produce that active rotary force so they can brush their carves
The only explanation I have heard is that they keep the outside ski flat and vigorously tip the inside ski to create rotary force. Sounds pretty active to me.

PSIA still teaches active rotary skills. You will not pass level III if you don't understand how, when, where, and why you need them. Of course you also need to know the same about the other skills too. If you can't arc to arc a ski then you won't pass either. A premium is placed on balancing skills and movements. Any real backseat or tips coming up in short radius turns and you will probably have a hard time passing too. My only cert. experience is in NRM division.

Any movement that is done intentionally to influence an outcome is active in my book, irregardless of how much little actual effort is involved.
post #35 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
If this were true, how would any PSIA instructor be able to make carved turns? TDK6, I know you still believe in active weight transfers and that is OK. I think PMTS promotes OLR which looks very similar to passive weight transfer to me? Counter balancing is not neccessarily synonymous with an "active weight transfer". There do not appear to be any movements to me in PMTS that move away from the intended direction (as in your active weight transfer wedge turn demos). The convenient but over simplistic observations you have drawn above are not very accurate and just further cloud skiers' understanding and perception of these two systems.

b
PTMS comes to my resque in the active/passive weight shift discussion. Yes, what I said earlier and just like Rick pointed out here in a previous post, counterbalancing is one of the essential movements in PMTS and it shifts CoM towards the outside ski and away from direction of turning. You are right, if you ask a PMTS instructor he will tell you that counterbalancing is far from active weight transfer but I totally agree with you that it sure looks like it. Sorry for the simplistic observations but I just tried to throw some facts arround. I see no quick end to the confusing and clouded state we are in if we do not focus on facts.
post #36 of 222

Imho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
What you really should be asking is what PMTS does differently to produce that active rotary force so they can brush their carves
In PMTS there is no rotary torque applied to feet in order to crank them into a skid or force them into a tighter turn. There is however winding and unwinding going on between upper and lower body, upper/lower body separation, that can be considered rotation but that is by no means a muscle effort. It is a combination of tipping, ski rebound, unweighting, terrain, flexing&extending, angulation, ski geometricy, countering, body facing down hill and good for aft balance (not sticking to strict PMTS terminology or retoric). Pritty much everything in other words.

Important!
There is one very important thing that PMTS does not recognize and that is antisipation. If you are countered at the end of the turn and facing down the hill with your upper body you will be the complete opposite once you make your transition. Here is the big difference between short turns and long turns. There is no uppside down in short turns such as BPST. The reason is that your body is facing the wrong way according to the counter rotation consept. Your body is in fact "rotated" into the turn. Because this is a rotation that is a result of other things it is called "antisipation" insted of rotation. Look at Rocca frame 2 and 3. Nice counter has turned into antisipation.
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...005-sl-1c.html
post #37 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
In PMTS there is no rotary torque applied to feet in order to crank them into a skid or force them into a tighter turn.

Translation of that statement: If you want you're kids to learn to ski real well, the PMTS way, better send them to Hogwarts.


Quote:
There is however winding and unwinding going on between upper and lower body, upper/lower body separation, that can be considered rotation but that is by no means a muscle effort.

Oh, of course there isn't. Why would anyone think it takes muscle involvement to contort the body in such ways. :





Quote:
It is a combination of tipping, ski rebound, unweighting, terrain, flexing&extending, angulation, ski geometricy, countering, body facing down hill and good for aft balance (not sticking to strict PMTS terminology or retoric). Pritty much everything in other words.
Yep, no muscle involvement in those activities either. :



Quote:
Important!
There is one very important thing that PMTS does not recognize and that is antisipation.
Though they do it all the time.

tdk6, your post was a spoof,,, right? Intended to lure a response post such as I've penned here? :
post #38 of 222
I'm having trouble getting a grip in what the word "No" means.:
post #39 of 222
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Passive rotary to me is when joints are articulated in a manner which includes a rotational element, but is done to allow the skis to be tipped on edge so they can carve, yet apply no rotary force to the skis.

Anything done that creates a rotary force that is intentionally meant to be applied in a controlled and precise manner to the skis to sharpen the turn into a very specific shape,,, no matter what method is used to create that rotary force,,, well ,,, in my mind I just can't see it being anything but "active".
Rick,

I agree with you here! Perhaps my attempt at sarcasm in my previous post was not expressed clearly?
post #40 of 222
Thread Starter 
Perhaps PMTS does not want to focus on the rotary present so as to draw attention to it, but rather focus on the tipping to minimize the rotary.

Warning: PMTS skiers, "rotary" skills are a dangerous tool, excessive use can cause dizziness and skidding, in some extreme cases, pivoting with loss of edge control. Use only as directed by a PSIA instructor. In case of overdose seek professional help PMTS or PSIA.

Too much of a good thing is bad.
The right amount of a good thing is a good thing!
Denying it exists.....renaming it....silly.

b
post #41 of 222
I don't know why HH does not like to acknowledge the term "anticipation" or seemingly teach it as a concept. However, recent videos of Max and HH both show active use of what many know to be anticipation. Particularly in the BPST demos or HH skiing the steep bumps recently.

Rick I hear what you are saying about the terms "active" and "passive" and its a totally valid point. So perhaps it does not make sense to refer to PMTS as using "passive" rotary, since it is clear that in the BPST turns they are wanting some rotary to happen...so therefore it is by your definition, "active" not passive. They are wanting the tails to displace more than the tips and they are doing something active to make that happen.

I would encourage everyone here to go out and really try the BPST turns as explained in PMTS book#2 if you haven't already. There is definitely this odd sensation that the skis are somehow rotating on the snow and you aren't using the same body movements as you would say, doing pivot slips. If you feel the same body movements as pivot slips, then you aren't quite doing it right. Keep doing it until you think "whoa, that was weird, the skis pivoted, seemingly on their own". Then you will have experienced the sensation. I feel it is something related to balance, gravity, leverage and the sidecut at work. Perhaps a little anticipation at the top to get it started, but it continues on without anticipatory unwinding. Its a balancing act of some kind.

I am still scratching my head to be honest, to figure out how and why exactly this works. But there is definitely a different sensation going on there. I agree with Rick..it is not passive. That is an over simplification. Its just different than the skill that is required to do pivot slips, which is much more about twisting the femurs in the hip sockets.

Some would argue that it may be closer to the same movements or sensations you might feel when using pure tipping/arcing type movements, but with a different balance of intensity. At least that is the goal behind PMTS I think.

Maybe we need a new term for actions that seem indirect but are far from passive. Anticipation is also kind of in this boat in many ways. The active movement is to setup the anticipation, but the pivoting kind of happens automagically as the body unwinds. Its not passive. But its not really the same thing as actively twisting the legs to steer which seems more direct.

But all this begs the question.... "so what?" Active, passive, direct, in-direct.. so what. What does it matter. What is the value of having in-direct movements or even thinking you need or want them? That is an open ended question.
post #42 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
...tdk6, your post was a spoof,,, right? Intended to lure a response post such as I've penned here? :
Jep, in a way.... and you did just mighty fine .
post #43 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
They are wanting the tails to displace more than the tips and they are doing something active to make that happen.
I guess rotation means a lot of different things to many of us. IMO rotation is something rotating arround an axis of some sort or in reference to something. There is also a difference between turing and rotating. You are implying that the effort needed to displace the tails more than the tips is rotation but note that its only the effort to make it happen that might require some rotation. Once we move along the perifery we are not nesessarily rotating any more than if we were arching it as in carving because the tails are displaced to the tips the same consitant ammount through out the whole turn.

I was given the PMTS books and videos this year by a friend and I read, looked and skied through all the material. To be completely honest, I did not miss the absence of the word "rotary". Its a great consept and for all you gingos that cannot go to Austria and take a private lesson with a L3 instructor PMTS is perfect.
post #44 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
reference to something. There is also a difference between turing and rotating. You are implying that the effort needed to displace the tails more than the tips is rotation but note that its only the effort to make it happen that might require some rotation. Once we move along the perifery we are not nesessarily rotating any more than if we were arching it as in carving
No TDK, you are not reading my post correctly. Arcing along a periphery is not the same as displacing the tails more than the tips.
post #45 of 222
Thread Starter 
passive: accepting or allowing to happen without active response or resistance

active: engaging or ready to engage in physically energetic pursuits


I could see to how if the rotary action was not the primary movement, maybe it could be viewed as passive? dunno? Is it still there? yes.

I would think the only way to tip a ski without any rotary would be to tip the whole body?

b
post #46 of 222
Could it be that rather than PMTS saying that the what ever rotational movements made are 'passive', could it be they are simply being re-sequenced?

Many PSIA instrs still place rotary movements at the top of the priority list, with edging and pressuring movements afterwards.

Is making the rotary movements subordinate to edging and pressuring movements perhaps being referred to as 'passive'?

Without a doubt, once the edge is positively engaged, and the ski is energized/ pressured, it is much more difficult to cause it to 'pivot', 'brush', or 'skid'.

But should the ski be turned, twisted, pivoted, (what ever) before the edge is engaged, these previously mentioned actions are more prevalent.
post #47 of 222
Simplify.

PMTS uses the sidecut of the ski to turn. Part of the PSIA alpine technique uses rotary steering forces to turn the skis. PMTS puts the skis on their sides. PSIA might, might not, might combine edging and steering.

From the PSIA Level III certification standards:
3. Rotary Movements (Level III Advanced zone terrain, speed, and dynamics)
a. Use an appropriate amount of rotational guiding to assist edge engagement and direction change when dictated by conditions, terrain, or task
b. Demonstrate consistent guiding of both feet into and out of the fall line, creating two well defined arcs in the snow (minimal tail displacement)
c. Utilize strong, accurate rotational movements in conditions, terrain, and tasks which require quick direction change with minimal side cut engagement
d. Demonstrate the visual cues to effective skiing relative to rotary movements on demonstrations and tasks common to Advanced zone skiers

In PMTS, rotation in the hip socket is incidental. In PSIA rotary movements it is intentional. Yes, PMTS Counter Acting does rotate in the hip sockets, but without the intention of turning the skis.

A PMTS "brushed carve" turn uses the same movements as the carved turn plus intentionally flattening the angle of the outside ski so it doesn't hook up and carve. The skis are not steered. It is very useful to reduce speed, especially for lower level skiers or anywhere the turn radius and turn completion point don't reduce speed enough.


Ken
post #48 of 222
Yes Bud. That is a good example of why we keep going in circles on this issue. If you look at it from the perspective of what the femurs are doing in the hip sockets, then there is most definitely active and passive. There are many things we do with our body, including walking that result in passive rotation of the femur in the hip socket we aren't thinking about it. (shrug). What is the relevance of that?

Active rotation of the femur in the hip socket would be when that is the focus and you are specifically thinking about and twisting your legs. So for example, if you tip and the the femur twists a bit in the hip socket, that is what I would view as being passive. Active would be when you think in your mind to twist the feet and you actively engage muscles to make that happen.

That is all from the perspective of what our femurs are doing in our hip sockets, which is only partially useful in certain situations. Most of the time we are focused, hopefully, with what the skis are doing on the snow. If you are speaking of that kind of rotation or pivoting, then as Rick has pointed out, there are few cases that truly qualify as passive. If the skis pivoted on the snow, then hopefully that is what you intended. If you intended it, then it was active.
post #49 of 222
SSG- then if only sidecut is used , with absolutely NO additional rotary input, then I really have to try of pair of those magic Heads... Because those are some darned short turns, (and in HH's case) on some rather irregular terrain.
Given the footage we have seen of Max and HH, I'd have to say that somewhere in their mechanics, some additional guidance of the skis is occurring.

Or maybe my player is adding a little visual length to their skis.
post #50 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
In PMTS, rotation in the hip socket is incidental. In PSIA rotary movements it is intentional.
Ken, I do want to point out that the PMTS BPST most definitely has rotational aspects to the turn. The skis are pivoting on the snow and the femurs are rotating in the hip sockets. The intention is in fact for the skis to pivot on the snow. However, I agree with you that PMTS skiers are not focusing their mind on twisting their legs, even though the femurs do twist in the hip sockets, perhaps passively as I just defined a minute ago. The intention is for the skis to pivot on the snow, which makes it an active movement by Rick's definition. We can never get to any common ground of understanding unless we agree to look at from one perspective or the other. Are we talking about what the skis are doing on the snow or what the bones are doing?
post #51 of 222
BTS, excellent posts, as always. You GET IT.

If everyone can get on the same road, as you are advocating, then this thread just may get somewhere. If it does, I just may drop in and explain Waist Steering's way of actively applying a rotary force to the skis. (hint, it's done without rotating the femurs in the hip sockets)
post #52 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Jep, in a way.... and you did just mighty fine .
Always happy to pitch in.
post #53 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Ken, I do want to point out that the PMTS BPST most definitely has rotational aspects to the turn. The skis are pivoting on the snow and the femurs are rotating in the hip sockets. The intention is in fact for the skis to pivot on the snow. However, I agree with you that PMTS skiers are not focusing their mind on twisting their legs, even though the femurs do twist in the hip sockets, perhaps passively as I just defined a minute ago. The intention is for the skis to pivot on the snow, which makes it an active movement by Rick's definition. We can never get to any common ground of understanding unless we agree to look at from one perspective or the other. Are we talking about what the skis are doing on the snow or what the bones are doing?
Most of us get it and actually agree. The problem and all the angst comes from people doggedly defending PSIA by watching PMTS and saying "look look there's rotation in that skiing." But rotation of the femur that results from tipping is much different from twisting your feet. Limit the discussion of rotation to what is happening at the feet and it becomes a different discussion.

I clearly remember that "steering" the feet was a huge part of PSIA doctrine going back to centerline. It was the dominant skill. Now what's interesting is that it has remained the dominant skill all the way through the development of shaped skis until now.

A large part of ACBAES was that it was a new method to take advantage of the new sidecuts. It makes perfect sense. A different approach and a different philosophy. Don't twist your feet to turn instead Tip the ski on edge and it will turn.
post #54 of 222
Yes it seems different that the descriptions I have heard from PSIA, but I'm not quite sure how "new" it is. It seems very similar to what I was told in the 70's, by a knowledgeable skier. I seem to recall someone once mentioned a book called "How the racer's ski" that also spoke about cutting along with the ski on edge instead of pivoting a flat ski (mind you I never read the book).

I'm not at all qualified in PMTS, but having read their forums, It seems to me that if you just tip the ski without trying to make the edge slide in any direction except straight ahead in the direction it's pointing, you are not using what PMTS calls "active rotary", otherwise you are.
post #55 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Could it be that rather than PMTS saying that the what ever rotational movements made are 'passive', could it be they are simply being re-sequenced?
I think it goes further than that. Consider the notion that the other skills contain movements that in and of themselves are sufficient to create whatever rotation is necessary. If that is true, one can see how saying "There is no rotary in PMTS." can be so confusing.
post #56 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Yes it seems different that the descriptions I have heard from PSIA, but I'm not quite sure how "new" it is. It seems very similar to what I was told in the 70's, by a knowledgeable skier. I seem to recall someone once mentioned a book called "How the racer's ski" that also spoke about cutting along with the ski on edge instead of pivoting a flat ski (mind you I never read the book).

I'm not at all qualified in PMTS, but having read their forums, It seems to me that if you just tip the ski without trying to make the edge slide in any direction except straight ahead in the direction it's pointing, you are not using what PMTS calls "active rotary", otherwise you are.
Obviously racers were using the sidecut of a ski before shaped skis and we carved those skis also. Our bodies haven't changed so we must have been using some of the same movements. I think what Harb did was to recognize the opportunity for advancement that shaped skis offered for recreational skiers and then he designed a system of instruction to exploit that new ski design. It may borrow old ideas and concepts. He may have simple redefined concepts. But even if that is all he did, and I believe he went further than that, his system was a better idea and concept than sticking with the staus quo which is what PSIA did. A decade or more after shapes and they still haven't changed their approach. It doesn't make sense. The biggest revolution in ski design and they continued to teach the same way. Well I should qualify that, for awhile they encouraged everybody to ski with their feet wide apart.

On a very basic common sense level Harb makes a lot of sense and on a very high technical level there are very few anywhere that have the combination of his eye, his technical understanding and his ability.
post #57 of 222
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Yes Bud. That is a good example of why we keep going in circles on this issue. If you look at it from the perspective of what the femurs are doing in the hip sockets, then there is most definitely active and passive. There are many things we do with our body, including walking that result in passive rotation of the femur in the hip socket we aren't thinking about it. (shrug). What is the relevance of that?

Active rotation of the femur in the hip socket would be when that is the focus and you are specifically thinking about and twisting your legs. So for example, if you tip and the the femur twists a bit in the hip socket, that is what I would view as being passive. Active would be when you think in your mind to twist the feet and you actively engage muscles to make that happen.

That is all from the perspective of what our femurs are doing in our hip sockets, which is only partially useful in certain situations. Most of the time we are focused, hopefully, with what the skis are doing on the snow. If you are speaking of that kind of rotation or pivoting, then as Rick has pointed out, there are few cases that truly qualify as passive. If the skis pivoted on the snow, then hopefully that is what you intended. If you intended it, then it was active.
agreed!
post #58 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post
PMTS is a teaching system that works on how to use these movements. Much more structured but I also find a little confining especially while teaching if you have students that are not "motivated" to spend time practicing movements and doing drills. Most of the public wants the thrills of skiing without the sweat or practice time.
Actually, just the opposite is the case. Students taking a PMTS lesson respond very well to being taught in the PMTS way.
post #59 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
But rotation of the femur that results from tipping is much different from twisting your feet. Limit the discussion of rotation to what is happening at the feet and it becomes a different discussion.
Exactly. Twisting the feet is vastly different.

But let's get even pickier and consider two outcomes of tipping. When I tip my foot I try to keep my toes from pointing in a new direction (in other words the foot is still pointing straight ahead). This is very different than the guy that tips his foot and lets the foot rotate with femur rotation (so that they toes are now pointed into the turn). Two very different outcomes that both have femur rotation.
post #60 of 222
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Ken, I do want to point out that the PMTS BPST most definitely has rotational aspects to the turn. The skis are pivoting on the snow and the femurs are rotating in the hip sockets. The intention is in fact for the skis to pivot on the snow. However, I agree with you that PMTS skiers are not focusing their mind on twisting their legs, even though the femurs do twist in the hip sockets, perhaps passively as I just defined a minute ago. The intention is for the skis to pivot on the snow, which makes it an active movement by Rick's definition. We can never get to any common ground of understanding unless we agree to look at from one perspective or the other. Are we talking about what the skis are doing on the snow or what the bones are doing?
BTS,

I am talking about what the skis are doing on the snow in relation to the bodies vertical axis's. Tomaaaato, Tomoooooto, whether PMTS'rs choose to acknowledge it or not, I think we all agree then the elements of rotation are present in "brushed carves".

b
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