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Rotary, active vs. passive - Page 8

post #211 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Hey did you hear this one:

How many lvl3 , examiner, D-team PSIA members does it take to try and beat down a member of the GP who is more informed than they are?
None, this doesn't happen in real life.
post #212 of 222
"Roses are red, violets are blue... Rotary, Rotary, Rotary."
post #213 of 222
I think you're onto something Bolter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artist: Harry Chapin, Album: Living Room Suite
The little boy went first day of school
He got some crayons and started to draw
He put colors all over the paper
For colors was what he saw
And the teacher said.. What you doin' young man
I'm paintin' flowers he said
She said... It's not the time for art young man
And anyway flowers are green and red
There's a time for everything young man
And a way it should be done
You've got to show concern for everyone else
For you're not the only one

And she said...
Flowers are red young man
Green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen

But the little boy said...
There are so many colors in the rainbow
So many colors in the morning sun
So many colors in the flower and I see every one

Well the teacher said.. You're sassy
There's ways that things should be
And you'll paint flowers the way they are
So repeat after me.....

And she said...
Flowers are red young man
Green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen

But the little boy said...
There are so many colors in the rainbow
So many colors in the morning sun
So many colors in the flower and I see every one

The teacher put him in a corner
She said.. It's for your own good..
And you won't come out 'til you get it right
And all responding like you should
Well finally he got lonely
Frightened thoughts filled his head
And he went up to the teacher
And this is what he said.. and he said

Flowers are red, green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen

Time went by like it always does
And they moved to another town
And the little boy went to another school
And this is what he found
The teacher there was smilin'
She said...Painting should be fun
And there are so many colors in a flower
So let's use every one

But that little boy painted flowers
In neat rows of green and red
And when the teacher asked him why
This is what he said.. and he said

Flowers are red, green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen.
post #214 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Volklskier-

You refuse to offer anything about yourself or your back ground. You seem more intent on denegrating PSIA, than promoting PMTS. I think you have merely found someone elses soapbox to stand on, to shout out your obvious issues of inadequacy.

I can't help but wonder who pi$$ed in your cornflakes, and gave you such a wicked hard on for PSIA. You have a chip on your shoulder as large as the great outdoors. What happened to you? Did you get passed over at some selection? Or did you just fail your L3 for the 4th time?

What ever it is, you know I really don't give a damn anymore, and I don't think anyone else takes you seriously here either...

You have just become another running gag... (and not a very funny one, either) so why don't you just run along....

That's a good little boy....
Here you go, this should help....

http://forums.epicski.com/profile.ph...ignore&u=14113
post #215 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
By itself, the word rotary or rotation is worthless as a describer of skiing.

Unless you connect it to a specific body part, plane of movement, and direction, it has no functional meaning. If you are going to use it as a descriptive, then you should also be able to describe its effective result.

To continually beat these definitions to death, and still not get any closer to an answer is ridiculous if all the parameters aren't specified.
VSP, I made this same comment early on. It seems some here are intent on protecting a very vague and generalized concept while others want to deny it. Either way, that way the term is bantered around doesn't produce much progress on this topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
Bud, I think that one of the root problems for the difficult communications on this topic is the term rotary, as well as associated terms such as steering and guiding. At best they are inexact and at worse they mean very different things to different people. I have initiated threads and posted on this topic many times. In response I have received separate references/definitions from PSIA literature on rotary referring [exclusively] to joint rotation, the application of a twisting force in the plane of the ski, [or both]. On the far other side are some who almost entirely deny the need of any kind of rotary (whatever that means!) at all in skiing. My suggestion would be to eliminate the use of these terms if you really want to discuss the underlying topic. It is very simple to restrict ourselves to more exact terms for actions/forces we can apply to the ski (tipping, twisting, combined twisting and tipping, pressuring fore or aft, unweighting, etc.). Similarly it is very easy to describe joint movement (i.e. internal rotation, external rotation, flexion, extension, supination, pronation, etc.). If people would more specifically use these terms to describe the movements they are talking about and the actions/forces they are trying to transmit to the skis I believe we could have much more meaningful discussion.

Furthermore I think that it is important to differentiate between active muscle recruitment needed for a movement (whether to initiate the movement or to continue the kinetic chain along the intended path) and reduction of muscle activity or relaxation to permit joint movement. I would hope the reason for this is obvious. However, I think it may be worthwhile to further differentiate between movements which may happen without "effort" as part of the intent of a [different] movement, and those that must be purposefully performed within a movement, recognizing that this can be different for different people.
post #216 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
By itself, the word rotary or rotation is worthless as a describer of skiing.

Unless you connect it to a specific body part, plane of movement, and direction, it has no functional meaning. If you are going to use it as a descriptive, then you should also be able to describe its effective result.

To continually beat these definitions to death, and still not get any closer to an answer is ridiculous if all the parameters aren't specified.
Exactly and that's why the constant "I see rotary" chant is ridiculous. We are talking about turning, steering guding whatever you want to call movements of the feet. PSIA teaches this. PMTS does not. While that is not the only difference it is a very fundamental and easily understood one.
post #217 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Volklskier-

You refuse to offer anything about yourself or your back ground. You seem more intent on denegrating PSIA, than promoting PMTS. I think you have merely found someone elses soapbox to stand on, to shout out your obvious issues of inadequacy.

I can't help but wonder who pi$$ed in your cornflakes, and gave you such a wicked hard on for PSIA. You have a chip on your shoulder as large as the great outdoors. What happened to you? Did you get passed over at some selection? Or did you just fail your L3 for the 4th time?

What ever it is, you know I really don't give a damn anymore, and I don't think anyone else takes you seriously here either...

You have just become another running gag... (and not a very funny one, either) so why don't you just run along....

That's a good little boy....
Backgrounds mean nothing. Look at Max. The guy has more knowledge than this entire group of self proclaimed experts.

You can try and disparage me all you want. I don't care. I'm completely comfortable with my ability and my knowledge. You totally misunderstand me. I'm not angry. I'm laughing.

The real question is why is PSIA so angry at Harb?
post #218 of 222
[quote=Uncle Louie;703145]Sorry, can't agree with you here. The use of all rotary movements are fine. Its the degree to which you use them that may need correcting. Too much leg steering in relation to the amount of pressure and edging one uses may be a problem and might need correction. At the same time, that exact action may be the only way to ski some terrain.

It is pretty obvious that the PMTS crowd and the PSIA crowd has different terms for the same meanings. Each should "plain english" a term they use so the other group has a true understanding of that they are saying. It seems to me that when the PMTS guys discuss rotation they are really saying leg steering. Bud and VSP just pointed out that PSIA has a far broader view of what is "rotation". To me turning the torso to effect a turn at the skis has always been a rather major no-no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ
To my mind if there's turning there has to be some form of rotary motion somewhere.[/SLATZ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ

Nope, there are instances where no rotation (anywhere in the body) can still result in a turn. A fully banked turn would be an example.

A note on the Phantom Move. I see this move as one that effects pressure more so than steering. Put your boots on and stand in a doorway and begin tipping (Phantom move style) and note how heavy your leg begins to feel. It seems to feel heavier the more you tip it. You are in effect moving mass to the intended turns center, as well as pressuring the outside ski. The end result is that the stance/steering (foot doing the turn) begins to come up on edge, and you naturally begin to angulate (PSIA) / counterbalance(PMTS). Phantom made simple, and it works very very well.
I do ,however ,agree with you here. I was vague in my sentance and should have ,perhaps,defined rotary we would like to eliminate. Such as upper body twisting not in counter and used to begin a turn movement, hips leading the turn , hands and shoulders left behind having used them to support a turn movement.
post #219 of 222
Steering and rotary are not synonymus. Steering is rotary but not all rotary is steering. (there's that "terminology" thing again)
A banked turn involves tipping which is rotating the ski on it's longitudinal axis. (as you can see I have a broad definition of rotary movements)
The Phantom Move involves "lifting (lightening) and tipping". "Lifting is learning, lightening is expert skiing".
post #220 of 222
GarryZ, your understanding of PMTS is not accurate. If you're really interested in what PMTS is about, I suggest you get the books and spend more time on realskiers forum. You're never going to get an accurate picture of it here on Epic.
post #221 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
By itself, the word rotary or rotation is worthless as a describer of skiing.

Unless you connect it to a specific body part, plane of movement, and direction, it has no functional meaning. If you are going to use it as a descriptive, then you should also be able to describe its effective result.

To continually beat these definitions to death, and still not get any closer to an answer is ridiculous if all the parameters aren't specified.
This is exactly right.

Playing with semantics contributes nothing to really coming to understand the important principles of skiing. If you really want to learn, the word games have to stop, the group allegiance blinders have to come off, the ears have to open, and the brain has to be engaged. Drop all the group generated lingo that means nothing without specific detail (as Ric said), and get down to the business of learning the nuts and bolts of what's really happening and why.

All this,,, "it's rotary",,,, "no it's not",,, nonsense for hundreds of posts is for the birds.
post #222 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
GarryZ, your understanding of PMTS is not accurate. If you're really interested in what PMTS is about, I suggest you get the books and spend more time on realskiers forum. You're never going to get an accurate picture of it here on Epic.
I suppose it would be better to go to the source and find answers firsthand. I am going through E.S. 2 right now.
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