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What is + binding position

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I've seen it mentioned on some threads that people might mount +1 or +2, etc. Would that mean mounting with the boot center mark at 1cm, 2cm, etc in front of the center mark on the ski?

I take it with a flat ski, you'd pretty much have to live what you choose with a conventional binding. Does anyone make a plate kinda binding that would allow you to tweak the position after mounting like some of the rail-mounted systems?
post #2 of 18
The Vist Speedlock series does this. I recently had a Speedlock Pro plate and Vist bindings mounted on my Stockli SCs. You can move the front and back binding pieces forward or backward without any tools. Not only does it allow you to change the position of your boot on the binding, but it allows the bindings to be moved to accomodate various boot sizes.
Various other plates exist (Marker and, I believe, Tyrolia) that have predrilled holes in the plate, but they require tools and more time to relocate the bindings.
post #3 of 18
Also the Neox binding from atomic has this ability, you just flip a little metalplate and then you can adjust the binding as you wish Very smart if you want to swap skis with your pal or something like that
post #4 of 18
The Tyrolia Railflex series lets you adjust position. I think michaelsnead discussed that at length in his Karma ski review. Demo bindings are usually able to be moved fore and aft on the ski and are very popular with ski testers for this feature and to let lots of different people (boot sizes) test the skis. More to the point, the manufacturer should get the boot center mark dialed in before the ski is sold, but we've seen that is not always the case. The Volkl Mantra comes to mind which definitely seems to benefit from a move aft of up to 2 cm, while the Seth V needs to be moved fairly up to 4 cm forward. These online forums (TGR/Epic) are one of the few places that binding placement is discussed with the benefit of the experience of others. The average skier would be completely oblivious to the issue. I mostly hear this discussed with regard to freeride skis and rarely with carvers or other skis with system bindings. As mentioned earlier, some system bindings are easy to adjust fore and aft. The Nordicas and Atomics come to mind.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Also the Neox binding from atomic has this ability, you just flip a little metalplate and then you can adjust the binding as you wish Very smart if you want to swap skis with your pal or something like that
You're thinking of the Atomic race and earlier bindings. The regular Neox has a screw that needs to be undone, the you can move it forward by a fixed amount. (IIRC, 1.5cm) the demo NEOX is easier to move.
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
....The regular Neox has a screw that needs to be undone, the you can move it forward by a fixed amount. (IIRC, 1.5cm) the demo NEOX is easier to move.
I'd disagree there in that the retail Neox bindings have almost infinite fore/aft adjustment, although in some case it would mean that the boot sole length would not read correctly in the 'window'. See http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=39950

Whilst the very heavy demo Neox is easily changed by the flip of the lever I'm of the belief the the toe & heel pieces cannot be adjusted independently to allow you to 'cheat' the boot length scale to adjust the fore/aft positioning. Can anyone confirm that?
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon View Post
I'd disagree there in that the retail Neox bindings have almost infinite fore/aft adjustment, although in some case it would mean that the boot sole length would not read correctly in the 'window'. See http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=39950
True, but the OP was talking about ease of adjustment, in which case the normal Neox 1.5cm change, or the custom change you're referring to, requires unscrewing, and having loose pieces around, and not something easily done on the hill, like the Atomic Race was.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post
I've seen it mentioned on some threads that people might mount +1 or +2, etc. Would that mean mounting with the boot center mark at 1cm, 2cm, etc in front of the center mark on the ski?
For discussions about K2 flat skis, it usually refers to a graduated scale marked on the left sidewall of the ski. Marked as "Mid Sole" is the zero of the scale, which goes ~7 cm forwards to a point they mark as "Core Center". In the case of the Public Enemy, "Core Center" is about ~2 cm rearward of the center of the running surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post
I take it with a flat ski, you'd pretty much have to live what you choose with a conventional binding. Does anyone make a plate kinda binding that would allow you to tweak the position after mounting like some of the rail-mounted systems?
As others in this thread have already noted, various bindings (Tyrolia Railflex, non-demo Atomic Neox, and Vist Speedlock, etc.) feature fore-aft adjustability. Some are easily adjusted, while others require more of a work commitment. Some are limited to very few positions, and some can be fine-tuned, but the convenience varies. Some demo bindings, particularly those that that feature separate toe and heel units (Look PX12 demo comes to mind), can be installed in a way to maximize the range of fore-aft adjustability for a given boot size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Also the Neox binding from atomic has this ability, you just flip a little metalplate and then you can adjust the binding as you wish Very smart if you want to swap skis with your pal or something like that
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
You're thinking of the Atomic race and earlier bindings. The regular Neox has a screw that needs to be undone, the you can move it forward by a fixed amount. (IIRC, 1.5cm) the demo NEOX is easier to move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderjon View Post
Whilst the very heavy demo Neox is easily changed by the flip of the lever I'm of the belief the the toe & heel pieces cannot be adjusted independently to allow you to 'cheat' the boot length scale to adjust the fore/aft positioning. Can anyone confirm that?
The Atomic Neox+, the demo version of the Neox binding and the only one with a metal plate to flip, cannot be adjusted for fore-aft position at all. It only allows convenient sole length changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
True, but the OP was talking about ease of adjustment, in which case the normal Neox 1.5cm change, or the custom change you're referring to, requires unscrewing, and having loose pieces around, and not something easily done on the hill, like the Atomic Race was.
I might be just me, but nowhere in the OP's post did I see any mention of ease-of-adjustment. In addition, everything about his/her post reads like somebody who is unsure of committing to a mounting placement on a flat ski, not somebody who wants to change settings back and forth from run-to-park.

Finally, even just adjusting the fore-aft placement of the Neox to the +-1.5cm "normal" positions require the same "unscrewing and having loose pieces around" as doing the fine adjustment. The only difference for the fine adjustment is that you don't rely on their numerical guides and you have to do some math as described in this thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=21639

How much more difficult that is over just the "normal" positions is only dependent on one's competence in grade-school math.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by DtEW View Post
It might be just me, but nowhere in the OP's post did I see any mention of ease-of-adjustment. In addition, everything about his/her post reads like somebody who is unsure of committing to a mounting placement on a flat ski, not somebody who wants to change settings back and forth from run-to-park.
No, it was me, there's 3 threads going on at the same time on similar subjects, and I got them mixed up.
post #10 of 18

Two cents about binding placement w/o redrilling or losing parts

Atomicman may crucify my for saying this but....

I prefer the Atomic 614 binding series (for my weight and ski style), they were the previous series of high performance bindings before the NEOX was introduced. Purely my biased opinion:

PROS: 5-way adjustibility from the ski manufacturers topskin marked or your own chord length center point (i.e. originally mounted position); for racers and mogul skier who share a phobia of pre-releasing vertically at the toe piece, there is a lock-out switch, which defeats that release possibility. For example, only on race day or a hairy mogul run (where the moguls are very closely spaced together and steep sided) would I lock it. BTW, I have never blown out with a vertical release with it turned off, either- so I don't want to give you the impression the 614 series had that tendency.

CONS: No teflon on the AFD, just hard black plastic. It was a relatively very "flat" AFDl, relative to the flatness of the ramp angle, which gave me the feeling I was unelevated and close to either the ski top surface or if plated the plate. Thus, there was very little of a lever-effect for the ski boot to fulcrum off of the AFD, in a forward release (heel release). I felt more of fulcrum, thus more easily initiated forward release on other maufacturer's bindings, because there was a more fulcrum, or teetering area for the boot bottom(front area) to act upon. When did I experience it? When I would do my final testing on my living room carpet to test forward release one booted in binding/ski and the other foot with only a boot on. I would step forward with the bindingless boot and effect a "fake" simulated forward release, one boot at a time. I actually discovered how different some binding DIN setting where not accurately calibrated at the factory or how spring elasticity degraded or changed over time/temperature/age, etc.

Rambling on too much huh.

p.s. I have one pair of first generation Tyrolia railflex bindings but I lost one screw...and it took 3 weeks to get one screw from the distributor...? And it is kind of a hassle to move the binding on the slider plate up or down in only three position selections. So, I have reserved these bindings to be used on my mid fat or fatties with some wide brakes.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenboSouthCentralinJapon View Post
p.s. I have one pair of first generation Tyrolia railflex bindings but I lost one screw...and it took 3 weeks to get one screw from the distributor...? And it is kind of a hassle to move the binding on the slider plate up or down in only three position selections. So, I have reserved these bindings to be used on my mid fat or fatties with some wide brakes.
There are actually many ways to mount the RF bindings if you individually step the toe and heel pieces along the geared rail of the center bridge, especially for smaller boot sizes. You don't have to be limited to the three major mount positions, the halfway "center" point, or the 1.5cm increments.
post #12 of 18
Has anyone mounted a railflex on a flat ski?
post #13 of 18
Phil:

Not quite sure what you are asking, the Head railflex setup isn't integrated into the ski like some of the others. Dawg is mounting a rail on my im78's because it came as a flat ski?

The rail basically screws into the ski like many bindings, but the holes are slotted (also common) so that the rail doesn't create a flat spot, and then the binding also slides on top of the rail so the boots don't create a flat spot.
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Has anyone mounted a railflex on a flat ski?
yep on my 165 line darkside too bad I only teach on them anymore. I do remember it making a differnece but with a ski that small and binding with only a din of 10 I cant really comment on the performance difference anymore.
post #15 of 18

RF mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Has anyone mounted a railflex on a flat ski?
I have put them on 3-4 pair of flat skis. Mounting is very easy but there are a couple of small steps to follow if drilling without a template/jig (let me know if you need more info). Works great, however the RF bindings have a fair amount of lift, more than might be desired for some applications. They are fine for all-mountain use and comparable to most other system/demo bindings in terms of lift. I just would not use them for dedicated park or powder skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf
Not quite sure what you are asking, the Head railflex setup isn't integrated into the ski like some of the others. Dawg is mounting a rail on my im78's because it came as a flat ski?

The rail basically screws into the ski like many bindings, but the holes are slotted (also common) so that the rail doesn't create a flat spot, and then the binding also slides on top of the rail so the boots don't create a flat spot.
Several Head skis (such as my iM77) already come with a railflex plate or rails pre-attached from the factory (same with some Fischers). In fact there are a couple different styles of plates on the various brands that use this binding. Head's factory plate is a little different than the one Fischer uses, and also different than the blank plate you can buy for mounting on "flat" skis.
post #16 of 18
If you are interested in an alternative...look at the Salomon z12 Smartrack system....REALLY EASY adjustments to the position of the binding...I can go +/- 4.5 cm (depends on the length of your boots)....and can be done on the slopes. I have mounted these on three pairs of skis (none are Salomons) so far....and really light.
post #17 of 18
How much lift does the Smartrack introduce compared with a vanilla Z12?
post #18 of 18
I think the Smartrack is about 29mm toe to 35mm heel.....more like a rental binding lift.
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