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Horizontal axes of the body (shoulders, hips, knees)

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Some things have changed in the ski racing in last years. One of them is the position of the horizontal axes of the body (shoulders, hips, knees) during a turn. Can you somebody describe a last knowledge about that issue? Is there any difference in the position of horizontal axes in SL, GS, SG, DH? And on different steeps?
post #2 of 19
Chechskier,

Welcome to Epic!

Is horizantal axes the same as lateral axes (movement in the side to side direction to create angles)?

Quote:
Is there any difference in the position of horizontal axes in SL, GS, SG, DH? And on different steeps?
The axes remains the same, but the angles do change depending on the shape of the turn, pitch of the hill, the radius of the turn and the speed.
Am I close to answereing your question?

RW
post #3 of 19
Would Snow conditions also have a minor input effect?
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
Chechskier,

Welcome to Epic!

Is horizantal axes the same as lateral axes (movement in the side to side direction to create angles)?



The axes remains the same, but the angles do change depending on the shape of the turn, pitch of the hill, the radius of the turn and the speed.
Am I close to answereing your question?

RW
Hi Ron,

Thanks for your answer.

Yes, maybe lateral axes is little bit better term, because when you incline, they will be no more horizontal

But the essence of the question is, how the angles of these axes are changing during different phases of a race turn in these ways:
1. Rotationally – (rotational or square position vs. counter (for example Benni Raich has sometimes more than 5 degrees rotational position of his hips)
2. Horizontally – when are these axes inclining and when the skier is striving to get these axes back to the horizontal position (angulation)
3. Are axes of shoulders, hips, knees parallel during the turn?


Ivan
post #5 of 19
1. Inclination is mostly desirable to start a turn
2. Which should lead into angulation, to display that classic "level shoulders, level hips"
3. This helps keep you balaned against the outside ski
4. However with modern skis, it is possible to keep inclining AND keep the skis reasonable well hooked up
5. Which leads to much more inclination in modern performance skiing, before you bend to angulate.


With respect to your question about the rotational axis, the very much depends on what turn, what terrain, what skier, and what phase of the turn.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by veeeight View Post
1. Inclination is mostly desirable to start a turn
2. Which should lead into angulation, to display that classic "level shoulders, level hips"
3. This helps keep you balaned against the outside ski
4. However with modern skis, it is possible to keep inclining AND keep the skis reasonable well hooked up
5. Which leads to much more inclination in modern performance skiing, before you bend to angulate.


With respect to your question about the rotational axis, the very much depends on what turn, what terrain, what skier, and what phase of the turn.
Hi veeeight



Thanks for your reply. It’s really common to see in WC in last few years (about 2 or 3) less angulation and counter and more inclination as well as squarer stance. But the question is, if it is common only on light to moderate slopes or also on steeps? Is it the same in all alpine disciplines?
And could you be more specific please in your answer to the question about rotation of the lateral axes?


Ivan
post #7 of 19
I think this thread might be better placed in the Racing forum.

Re counter (rotation) and square to the skis - it's my view that this depends on the discipline, definitely in GS you stay squarer tot he skis, whislt in SL, more counter is evident. But even this has changed in the last few years, the counter has moved higher up the body, to the torso from the hips.
post #8 of 19
Czechskier,

Quote:
And could you be more specific please in your answer to the question about rotation of the lateral axes?
The race course determines the amount of rotation (actually it is on the longitutinal axis) sp?. In the last year or so, GS courses have been set so there is more of a pivot in the turn transition (a spivot it is called) to redirect the skis more directly toward the next gate. This has made the courses more technically difficult b/c the skier must be able to go from a high edge carve at turn finish, to a flat ski to pivot in the transition and then back to high edge carve.

Sence GS is about half way between SG and slalom, it is a good format to study this. In slalom, the pivot portion is done during the cross under (retracted part of the turn) and the upper body stays more countered while the skis are laterally placed to the side for inclination through the turn.

Maybe the best answer of your question is that DH and SG turns have more gradual rotation and inclination while the body stays squarer and GS has more of a pivot and slightly faster inclination with more counter than SG, and in slalom, it happens very quickly where the body is more countered and squarer over the skis.

I feel it is the course that dictates the turns along with the equipment. The technique of the skier is dictated by efficiencey through the course.

Hope this answeres your question a little better.

RW
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CzechSkier View Post
Hi Ron,

Thanks for your answer.

Yes, maybe lateral axes is little bit better term, because when you incline, they will be no more horizontal

But the essence of the question is, how the angles of these axes are changing during different phases of a race turn in these ways:
1. Rotationally – (rotational or square position vs. counter (for example Benni Raich has sometimes more than 5 degrees rotational position of his hips)
2. Horizontally – when are these axes inclining and when the skier is striving to get these axes back to the horizontal position (angulation)
3. Are axes of shoulders, hips, knees parallel during the turn?


Ivan
1. Rotationally
Modern SL technique relies much on flexing through the transition. You need to be very quickly on new edges and the fastest way of dooing that is to retract your leggs through the transition and extend them out into the turn while your body takes a narrower path down the course. As long as the legs are flexed there has to be counter in the hips except for in the transition when hips are aligned over the skis but as soon as the hips move into the new turn and extending starts to build the hips are put into counter again. This is the reason why there is more counter in SL. To make it a bit more complicated there is more. In SL upper body is facing pritty much down the hill all the time therefore every turn starts off with something we can call antisipation. The previous turns counter becomes antisipation. Also inclination forses our inside ski to be pushed forwards making ski tip alignment to for example shoulder alignment not parallel.
How did you come up with 5 deg rotational?

2. Horizontally
Dont follow you here.....???

3. Axis
No, they are not aligned in SL. My opinion offcourse but the gate blocking, quick transitions and antisipation makes SL more complex than for example SG or DH. SL is also called technical disipline which indicates more complex technique.

General rule would be that the faster you go the more square you should stand. General rule would also be that the more G-force you encounter the closer to the snow you need to bring your hips which in turn increases counter. A catch-22 if I may speculate. Check out waist stearing, I think you could get some good input from there.
post #10 of 19
Tamtadamtadam....
post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
[quote=tdk6;695196]1. Rotationally
Modern SL technique relies much on flexing through the transition. You need to be very quickly on new edges and the fastest way of dooing that is to retract your leggs through the transition and extend them out into the turn while your body takes a narrower path down the course. As long as the legs are flexed there has to be counter in the hips except for in the transition when hips are aligned over the skis but as soon as the hips move into the new turn and extending starts to build the hips are put into counter again. This is the reason why there is more counter in SL. To make it a bit more complicated there is more. In SL upper body is facing pritty much down the hill all the time therefore every turn starts off with something we can call antisipation. The previous turns counter becomes antisipation. Also inclination forses our inside ski to be pushed forwards making ski tip alignment to for example shoulder alignment not parallel.
How did you come up with 5 deg rotational?

My friend coach told it me. He trains in Pitztal and Kaunertal in Austria and has his course just next to Benni Raich's course. He has noticed some changes in Benni's style and was talking with Benni's coach about that.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CzechSkier View Post
My friend coach told it me. He trains in Pitztal and Kaunertal in Austria and has his course just next to Benni Raich's course. He has noticed some changes in Benni's style and was talking with Benni's coach about that.
Interesting. In reference to what is Benni rotated 5deg? To a square stance or to a normal countered stance? And at what stage of the turn?

I could not find any photos of benni but here is one of marlies:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html

Look at frames 4, 5 and 6.
Frame 4, low C
Hips are inside the turn, upper body countered, skis are on old edges.
Frame 5, transition
Hips are square over skis, upper body antisipated slightly, skis are flat.
Frame 6, high C
Hips are moved inside new turn, upper body very much antisipated, skis are on new edges.

BTW, this thread belongs in the racing department.
post #13 of 19
Funny
I've always been told to have my shoulders directly above my knees and my ass directly above my heels. ??
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Funny
I've always been told to have my shoulders directly above my knees and my ass directly above my heels. ??
IMO you have been told incorrectly. By whom have you been told so? Im pritty sure that the person that told you so ment when you stand still on completely flat terrain. It is a sort of default position but when we are turning everything becomes dynamic and our bodyparts are in constant movement in ref to each other.

While turning the ass over heels is a definet no no. You should be pointing your butt uphill otherwise you skid your tails. One of the most typical misstakes BTW.
post #15 of 19
Hmm.. what's a good place to upload ones skimovie? A place where nobody would go unless linked to..
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
1. Rotationally
Modern SL technique relies much on flexing through the transition. You need to be very quickly on new edges and the fastest way of dooing that is to retract your leggs through the transition and extend them out into the turn while your body takes a narrower path down the course. As long as the legs are flexed there has to be counter in the hips except for in the transition when hips are aligned over the skis but as soon as the hips move into the new turn and extending starts to build the hips are put into counter again. This is the reason why there is more counter in SL. To make it a bit more complicated there is more. In SL upper body is facing pritty much down the hill all the time therefore every turn starts off with something we can call antisipation. The previous turns counter becomes antisipation. Also inclination forses our inside ski to be pushed forwards making ski tip alignment to for example shoulder alignment not parallel.
How did you come up with 5 deg rotational?

2. Horizontally
Dont follow you here.....???

3. Axis
No, they are not aligned in SL. My opinion offcourse but the gate blocking, quick transitions and antisipation makes SL more complex than for example SG or DH. SL is also called technical disipline which indicates more complex technique.

General rule would be that the faster you go the more square you should stand. General rule would also be that the more G-force you encounter the closer to the snow you need to bring your hips which in turn increases counter. A catch-22 if I may speculate. Check out waist stearing, I think you could get some good input from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Interesting. In reference to what is Benni rotated 5deg? To a square stance or to a normal countered stance? And at what stage of the turn?

I could not find any photos of benni but here is one of marlies:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html

Look at frames 4, 5 and 6.
Frame 4, low C
Hips are inside the turn, upper body countered, skis are on old edges.
Frame 5, transition
Hips are square over skis, upper body antisipated slightly, skis are flat.
Frame 6, high C
Hips are moved inside new turn, upper body very much antisipated, skis are on new edges.

BTW, this thread belongs in the racing department.
tdk6

Greetings to Finland, after all somebody from the same time zone like me.

As I understood from the discussion with my friend the 5 deg were in reference to a square stance, but now when you are asking I am not 100% sure. But I will speak with him about that more in detail and in June I will go with him to the glacier so that maybe I will be able to see and analyze that directly on the place.

To Marlies:
I agree mostly with you, perhaps only few observations:

1. There is a little bit counter in the first turn, but I it is probably better to see on the first three picture, even though not very clearly.
2. Frame 4 IMO is transition already. Skis are still on old edges though, but the old inside ski is more loaded already and she is also after the pole planting. So I would probably describe it like anticipation, not counter in low C
3. Frame 6 - Shoulders are anticipated strongly as you wrote, but not so the hips, which are going little bit to counter. This continues also on the frame 7. I am not sure, if this position of the shoulders is only because of gate clearing (I don't thing so), or it has another reason.

I have pictures of Benni in my computer, but I don't know, how to insert it here.

Ivan
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CzechSkier View Post
tdk6

Greetings to Finland, after all somebody from the same time zone like me.

As I understood from the discussion with my friend the 5 deg were in reference to a square stance, but now when you are asking I am not 100% sure. But I will speak with him about that more in detail and in June I will go with him to the glacier so that maybe I will be able to see and analyze that directly on the place.

To Marlies:
I agree mostly with you, perhaps only few observations:

1. There is a little bit counter in the first turn, but I it is probably better to see on the first three picture, even though not very clearly.
2. Frame 4 IMO is transition already. Skis are still on old edges though, but the old inside ski is more loaded already and she is also after the pole planting. So I would probably describe it like anticipation, not counter in low C
3. Frame 6 - Shoulders are anticipated strongly as you wrote, but not so the hips, which are going little bit to counter. This continues also on the frame 7. I am not sure, if this position of the shoulders is only because of gate clearing (I don't thing so), or it has another reason.

I have pictures of Benni in my computer, but I don't know, how to insert it here.

Ivan
Thanks for the greetings.

I agree with you that there is antisipation insted of counter in frame 4. It all depends on definitions. Yes, the pole plant indicates the start of the transition. Look at frame 3. There is allso a lot of snow spraying from her skis there so I bet she did have some weight on that inside ski even earlier in the turn or at least in the low-C. As the hips move over the skis in frame 5-6 she moved her hips over the skis into the turn. That is what I also call counter.

Get access to www.topeverything.com and up-load your photos there and paste a link here. I would like to see the photos.
post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CzechSkier View Post
Flexed transition, banked high C, sudden angulation at gate with inside shoulder leading the way and outside arm driven forwards.
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