EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › symptoms of alignment/canting issues
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

symptoms of alignment/canting issues

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
any dead giveaways? tests to indicate things aren't as tight as they could be? i ski with an imbalance issue (inner ear stuff) that i have learned to ski around; still, sometimes wonder if it's "just me" or something off in my set-up.
post #2 of 25
I think the best thing you can do is get checked out by someone that knows alignment inside and out. IMO, this means someone that at the least asks to see video of you skiing and even better, spends some time with you on the slopes before and after the alignment work is done.

Self diagnosing is difficult but one thing you can try is a test of balance as you traverse across a gentle slope. First stand on the outside ski going across, then come back across on the other outside ski. Then do to the inside skis. Can you ski across on one foot without a constant struggle to stay balanced? If not you may have an alignment issue.

The problem with this exercise is that many people get very good at covering up their alignment issues by compensating with other movements that bring them into balance (especially on a gentle traverse). However, dynamic skiing will typically show the alignment issues.
post #3 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I think the best thing you can do is get checked out by someone that knows alignment inside and out. IMO, this means someone that at the least asks to see video of you skiing and even better, spends some time with you on the slopes before and after the alignment work is done.

.
On snow evaluation is crucial. There are so many bootfitters" and alignment guys that don't do it. If you go to someone who doesn't then you are wasting your time and money
post #4 of 25
As a "self fitter" I have been grappling with an alignment issue. Though my general skiing seems "fine"( i'm quite satisfied, but always try to improve. accomodation of defects ? ;-)), When running flat, the right foot feels to be strongly on the outside edge. This is very evident and also disconcerting while in a sustained wedge, a manouver that is mandated while handling loaded rescue sleds. The sensation is that of imminent tuck under. Rolling of the ankle over to the outside.
In fact, I have the boots cuffs fully adjusted in compensation,(shaft alignment ) and have begun to trim away the inside foot and arch areas of the "over the counter" insoles that are installed inside the liner.
The left side is not a problem at all. and in my other boots, there is no notice of this sensation.


I really should install the custom footbeds from my other boots, but I'm trying to instruct myself in how to properly "fit" the boots based on "cut and see" methods with my own feed back. Thoughts are leading me toward the whole foot wedges spoken of on other recent threads.

How does this relate to the thread? Just that ones own awareness of sensations may give a clue to a problem, even if the solution may not be known to that individual.

Now to find, or become the one with the remedy.

CalG
post #5 of 25
Max501

I am sure you are correct, as this one-footed traverse is the test many others recommend, but why?

I can understand someone on an smooth drag lift track making a useful self-diagnosis of uneven edging (better still if watched by someone following), but why the traverse where control and edging are also balance issues?
post #6 of 25
As Max said, on snow can be done, have someone competent watch you.


On fresh prepped (courdoroy) very very gentle slope traverse both skis parallel in the following sequence (keep track of what edge you are working with)

-on uphill edges
-on downhill edges
-On flat skis

after each traverse, look at your tracks. When you are doing the edges, are they clean lines or smudges? Smudges indicate you were on a flat ski vs. an edge ....a possible alignment problem.

Then to confirm:
When on the flat (bases) 3rd test, are you seeing smudges or any of the following straight lines?
(smudges....try 2-3 more times on untouched courdoroy...still sumdeging, it might be the indian instead of the arrow)...if you're seeing lines...

1)A straight line uphill edge of uphill ski?
2)A straight line downhill edge of uphill ski?
3) A straight line uphill edge of downhill ski?
4) A straight line downhill edge of downhill ski?

If you have a possible alignment issue, you will get a positive on either 1/2 or 3/4 or both if both boots need work (but never 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 obviously you can't be misaligned both ways on one ski or you're doing the test wrong).

Again have someone who knows how to read tracks (an upper level instructor maybe...although not all are competent). I had someone who knew what they were doing help me to ID the problem.

Daslider, balance and edgeing on a very tame (almost no pitch) slope would be reduces compared to say someone trying this on black terrain. Also, you do this with the understanding that the skier is decently balanced/ can traverse in a somewhat balanced positions. A new skier would not benefit from tiny alignment fixes let alone be able to ski to have someone diagnose them.


Again the reason I say have someone watch you is to prevent/ watch out for compensation eg. subconsiously leaning to compensate for over/underedgeing.

But if you had someone, why not also equip them with a handy dandy digicam and shoot some video...a lot can be deciphered from there as well!
post #7 of 25
ryan,

A qualified bootfitter can set you up in a machine the alligns your foot and knees in your normal stance and can measure from the sole of the boot if you have a canting issue. I am shure the areas you ski have some shops that have a good reputation for bootfitting and can set you up. Sometimes the cant adjustment on the cuff of the boot is not enough, so there are other options. It usually doesn't cost anything to be checked, and a quick adjustment of the cuff should be minimal cost. If orthodics or sole planning are needed, the cost goes up, but it is worth it to be alligned properly.



RW
post #8 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
A qualified bootfitter can set you up in a machine the alligns your foot and knees in your normal stance and can measure from the sole of the boot if you have a canting issue.
This will only address alignment when in a static position. Skiing is dynamic so if you want to be dialed in an on snow assessment is a good idea.
post #9 of 25
Yes there are tests you can do on your own that will help you figure out for yourself where you want to be on your feet, Both on snow and off. Then when you find someone that knows more than you do about your set up liten intently. You will eithe find that the information confirms or is totaly off base with your sensations and what you have tried. First rule of alignment is if you feel it, it is real. Only the driver knows when the car is out of alignment.

You can see both the on snow and off snow testing at www.footfoundation.com on the self testing page. check it out and if you need some help or have specific questions you can do it right here.

check it out!!
post #10 of 25
The book "The Athletic Skier" by Witherell and Evrard has much information about alignment. Amazon.com has only used copies.
post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by makwendo99 View Post
As Max said, on snow can be done, have someone competent watch you.


On fresh prepped (courdoroy) very very gentle slope traverse both skis parallel in the following sequence (keep track of what edge you are working with)

-on uphill edges
-on downhill edges
-On flat skis

......
Great!

I also have read the self-test page of footfoundation.com. After that, I did some canting/alignment diy jobs yesterday evening. I was using some cardboards to make shims and wedges to change the cant underfoot and adjust the cuff lateral angle. The difference is interesting.

First, I measured the proper canting degree I will need according to SBS self test.
Second, I took out the footboards of my boots and inserted some paper shims under one boot, The footboard has some original cant like footfoundation.com mentioned. To my surprise, the factory canting on two boots are not equal. That really pissed me off on Rossignol quality control. How could they know my legs are not symmetrical? Yes, those are low-end cheap old model Rossignol Power 70 boots. I also used some tourist brochures to change the cuff angle, since my SportChek version Power 70s don't have cuff adjustment.
Then I put on both boots and clicked into skis and stood on flat floor.
The carpet was too soft but I didn't want to stand my skis on cement. I managed to stand on each foot alone and bent the knee, in a neutral, comfort position as I could.
Then I took some pictures directly from up. To be fair, I raised camera close to eye and was using right eye to find view when stood on right foot, and left eye for left foot. I feel if you could stand stably and get a satisied picture in this position, you would have been standing and being balanced as neutrol and comfortable as possible.

Now, here are results. I'm a supporter now, so forgive me abusing the upload privilege a little with my ugly chicken legs.

I ski knock-knee, I'm very weak in one side. Besides technique, if I don't believe bootfitting/canting/alignmet things before, I have to believe now. Tomorrow will be the last day of this season, I will ski with these cardboards to see any difference on snow.
525x525px-LL-vbattach1628.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach1629.jpg
post #12 of 25
Ryan,

The on hill tests are only good if you have someone watch you who is experienced. I have been balancing boots for thirteen years and over a thousand boots now and still trust the static (meaning indoors on the bench) assessment for LATERAL canting to be more accurate than just watching someone ski. Yes, skiing will show misalignments but how much exactly is difficult to determine by just watching. I will experiment with shims on hill to offer the skier new sensations so that an awareness is created to the differences created by canting, but will withhold final adjustments on the lateral canting until I see what is going on inside on the bench.

On the other hand I do not like making any permanant adjustments on the fore/aft plane until it can be experimented with dynamically on the hill. I wil ball park it inside then go on hill with shims to watch and have the skier determine what feels best with some guidance as to what sensations to look for.

You will never know if the grass is greener unless you try playing with your alignment!

bud
post #13 of 25
Vansnow,

I don't know about the accuracy of your assessment methodology but judging from your photos it is pretty obvious your right and left are assymetrical, which is very common, and that the right looks very undercanted. It looks as though the center of your knee mass is off the boot which is probably over 3 degrees so putting this much duct tape on your binding to experiment is probably not advisable. Placing 8 layers of heavy mil duct tape on the inside edge side of the toe and heel piece will simulate about 2 degrees which is a move in the right direction but will not yield the full benefit of getting it right on.

The good news is there are plenty of good boot fitters in Colorado to help you out!

bud
post #14 of 25
Actually I only did "modification" in one boot, and was comparing with another boot. In the pictures, the left leg was "aligned" and the other one "un-aligned". The asymmetry is what I made for. Sorry for the confusion.

It wouldn't have any accuracy I just went to experiment of the changes of footboard canting.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosh View Post
Yes there are tests you can do on your own that will help you figure out for yourself where you want to be on your feet, Both on snow and off. Then when you find someone that knows more than you do about your set up liten intently. You will eithe find that the information confirms or is totaly off base with your sensations and what you have tried. First rule of alignment is if you feel it, it is real. Only the driver knows when the car is out of alignment.

You can see both the on snow and off snow testing at www.footfoundation.com on the self testing page. check it out and if you need some help or have specific questions you can do it right here.

check it out!!
Eric,

On your main page, the link to the self test page goes to the wrong page. This is the self test page.
post #16 of 25
Ryan,

I'm with bud on lateral canting.

RW
post #17 of 25
Sorry Rusty,

I have been tweaking the page lately and if you go to www.footfoundation.com/selftest you should have better luck. let me know what you think.

Mosh
post #18 of 25
Mosh

page still doesn't work for me.

While you're there, for the indoor self test, should I be standing on my footbed and shimming that, rather than standing in bare feet. Without the footbed, I think I can guess what will happen, but I can see the purpose of tilting the entire stabilised foot. thanks
post #19 of 25
Yes if you have a foot bed you can use that. If you don't have one just test the foot alone. If you have a foot bed you can try it both ways to see if the result is actualy different. Most are supprised to find that their custom foot bed does not actualy change the amount of pronation you experience. This is a very important point. try it you will be shocked to find that most not all will not sugnificantly change the amount of pronation that occurs.
post #20 of 25
What would indicate, in normal skiing, the need for addjustment in the fore/aft plane?
post #21 of 25
I guess the short answer is all the symptoms of miss alignment in skiing. Internal rotation of the leg or A frame, inacuracy, or asymetry in movements where one would have trouble accessing one edge or another. Poor balance or chronicly in the back seat. You name it, if you have problems with the fore foot you may never completly solve the problem only with a boot sole grind.
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRN View Post
What would indicate, in normal skiing, the need for addjustment in the fore/aft plane?
I would suggest that in general the goal is to be able to stand relatively tall with slight pressure on the tongues of the boots as a comfortable and natural stance and the feeling of this being a comfortable neutral position from which to turn and and recenter to if knocked off balance. To the contrary if some one is set up too far forward they will feel a need to adjust their neutral stance farther back against the spoiler of the boot and ski in a croched stance to remain in balance. If the combination of ramp angle and delta angle pitch the skier too far forward, the skier must counter this by moving their center back toward the heels. Conversley if the skier is set up too upright they will tend to ski bent over hinging at the waist to stay centered. The boots will feel to stiff and the skier will get pitched back on the ski tails easily.

Finding an individuals optimum position requires on hil testing in a dynamic environment. This can be done to some degree with bontex shims between the boot and binding. In general someone with a longer boot sole who uses a binding with a flatte delta angle will be in the back seat and need a steeper angle, while a skier with a very short boot sole and a binding with a steeper delta will need to be moved in the opposite direction.

Finding the optimum angle for yourself is very important to skiing progress and comfort, and once found should be carefully recreated with each change of equipment.

bud
post #23 of 25
mosh and bud, thanks for the info. I've been and will be working on dialing in my balance, your insites will help. Thanks again.
post #24 of 25
The reason that fore foot issues play into the fore aft is simply that if the foot is looked at as a tripod, (Heal, ball of big toe, and ball of little toe) and the fore foot is not supported in a way that allows that tripod to be effective you will not be working with a tripod you may have more of a bi pod, little toe ball and heal. and with this configuration of the foot within the boot the natural action is to lever back and to the inside when ever things get even remotely hairy. so the chronicly back people need to look at not only the fore aft geometry but also the fore foot anomolies that exist in us all to one degree or another.

Do the on snow test to figure out wether you should have someone look at your set up. These on snow tests are simply to answer the question, is this it or not. If you can anwer yes GREAT. IF not then start looking for ways to anwer this in the affirmative.
post #25 of 25

Standing tall issues? (duck vs. pigeon thing again, sorry)

I was watching people walk and bike this weekend.

On three different (tallish, FWIW) suspects I saw the heel get pulled in medially before the stance/extending leg was at full extension. In one case by over two inches, and before the hips had passed over the foot.

What is going on?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › symptoms of alignment/canting issues