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Global Warming (Sorry Couldn't Help Myself) - Page 2

post #31 of 75
Originally posted by Karsten Hain:

That is extremely insulting as an American and especially as a Christian.
Obviously, you equate pseudo-Christians like Dubya and true Christians who know (1) that politics and religion SHOULD NOT BE MIXED; and (2) Jesus and God never stood for the things Dubya stands for.

If you are a Christian and believe Dubya's (and Ashcroft's) profession of Christianity, you need some serious prayer time alone with God, and some serious Bible study. Seriously.

I say that as a former devout Christian who ceased practicing Christianity because of its horrific bastardization by political jerks like those currently in power.
post #32 of 75
For my dear friend Gonzo:

Howdy Gonzo,

Did y'all see that Pontiac is gunna bring back them there GTOs? They be usin' the 350 aluminumumum hi performanc enjin with rear wheel drive and them there 17 inch wheels. Hot dang, ah can't wait to order mine! Yahooo!

<center><img src=http://www.pontiac.com/pontiacjsp/passion/news/images/pn_gto_photo.jpg></center>
post #33 of 75
Gonz, in regard to post 6/24 4pm and onward, I fear you are completely accurate in this and have felt the same for ages. People keep buying it though, and stand idly by while the ashcrofts and dubyas are elected and appointed. I just don't see two prayer meetings a day in the White House with mandatory staff attendance as being all that much in the interest of Separation of "Church" and State. The "Patriot" Acts should be required reading for the entire voting public. I'm pretty scared of the course we seem to be on now. This stuff hits home with me and simply sticks in my craw. End of beginning of rant. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

post #34 of 75
Y'all click on this here link:

[ June 25, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: JimBobBubba ]
post #35 of 75
"activist hype and hysteria " .... "gullible youth, a corrupt bureaucracy and biased media " .... specific US politic ... who cares ? talking about Global warming, that means it's a GLOBAL issue, not only US (looks like that in this country the debate is rotten, corrupted by a battle between extremisms, environmental one and oil lobby ?)

The only ones scientists that contest climat changes abnormally are in US. Looking for what wrote Mr Steven Milloy, the rest of global scientist community are all "junk" scientists... Unless the true junk scientist is Mr Milloy himself [img]tongue.gif[/img]

See ya.

[ June 26, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Jackdaw ]
post #36 of 75
But science in the US is different to the rest of the world, didn't you know that?
Now, stop being silly, get the lead back in your petrol, the CFC back in your aerosols, and burn the nearest forest.
Mother nature will tidy up after you.
post #37 of 75
<blockquote>In fact, the report by the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is more political than scientific. Fourteen international experts gathered on Capitol Hill in June to review the report. They unanimously agreed it contains systematic errors and omissions bordering on scientific fraud. ...</blockquote>

Whatever you do, don't click on this here link:


or this one:

[ June 26, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: JimBobBubba ]
post #38 of 75
".... Norway's Tom Segalstad said the report omitted mention of studies reporting that carbon dioxide - the major greenhouse gas of concern - was actually more prevalent in the preindustrial era than it is today .... "

What are those studies ???
I got those infos :

CO2 proportion in atmosphere =

from 100000 years before to 19th century:
0.09/1000 to 0.18
Last century to nowaday:
0.18 to 0.36

Who's ****in' lying ????????????

post #39 of 75
<blockquote>Next comes a large spike in the air's CO2 content, all the way up to a value of 2400 ppm. And what does the oxygen isotope ratio do? It rises slightly (implying temperature falls slightly) to about 0.4 per mil, which is again just the opposite of what one would expect under the CO2-induced global warming hypothesis. After the spike in CO2, of course, the air's CO2 concentration drops dramatically, declining to a minimum value of close to what it is today. And the oxygen isotope ratio? It barely changes at all, defying once again the common assumption of the CO2-induced global warming hypothesis. ...</blockquote>
More here:
post #40 of 75
Don't you know that "GTO" is just a rebadged Holden from Oz(with the steering wheel on the "wrong" side)
post #41 of 75

Seems the Global Climate Models we are supposed to invest our faith in can't touch the bright round object in the sky.
post #42 of 75
Originally posted by SLATZ:
Don't you know that "GTO" is just a rebadged Holden from Oz(with the steering wheel on the "wrong" side)
No, didn't know that. What's a Holden? Oz car mfg? The GTO seems to be a continuation of the Firebird line which is being "phazed out," but not really after all.
post #43 of 75
Holden is an Australian company that is GM owned(did I get that right Ozzies?) They have Holden Suburbans and Novas to name a few. There was a write-up and road test in Auto Week earlier this spring. The Holden name is Modera or something like that(help me Ozzies)
post #44 of 75
U. S. Out of Kyoto For a Decade—At Least
Click this link: http://www.globalwarming.org/polup/pol5-18-02.htm

Since the Kyoto treaty is really about the USA (the evil monster needs to reduce energy consumpiton by 30%) there is no Kyoto treaty without the USA willing to commit economic suicide.
post #45 of 75
What the BBC, Peter Jennings and other "mainstream" journalists (gag, cough) won't tell you.
<blockquote>(The Hague, Netherlands) November 21, 2000 - … Dr. Richard Courtney, also an IPCC "expert reviewer" who is with the European Science and Environment Forum (UK), passionately argued a lack of measured "global" warming. He demonstrated that nearly all measured increases in temperatures have occurred in regions, for example Siberia, where data are sparse and not continuous, and are therefore doubtful. …

Also, those IPCC summaries all operate on what Dr. Courtney calls an at-best strange presumption, that being that there is a difference between "climate variability" and "climate change." Variability, according to the summaries, is natural, while "change" is man-made. These summaries consider all fluctuations occurring before the industrial revolution to be variability; all that occurring after is "climate change." "Whatever that is, it is not science," said Dr. Courtney.

Courtney, an avowed socialist, stressed that the scientists were of varied political philosophies and thus were not joined or motivated by politics. Indeed, he asserted the opposite, saying "chickens do come home to roost; given time, these scientific flaws will come out but, it seems, that only after an agreement which harms the poor is underway." He stated that, at that time, "[journalists] won't blame the politicians who rammed this through, but the scientists. And that's me. And I object."</blockquote>
More here: http://www.globalwarming.org/cop6horner3.htm
post #46 of 75
Jackdaw- You state your case well. I will look into the ozone thing, but I remain skeptical about the configuration of the magnetic field allowing more reaction with CFC's and the ozone later. many western nations have suppossedly banned the use of DFC's, but there are still many who haven't. Mexico is one. I suggest that perhaps CFC's excacerbated the problem (to what extent is still debatable) - nevertheless- when in doubt play it safe- but the ozone layer perhaps naturally expand and contracts. We just don't know yet.

The arguement that only US scientists argue against global warming is not exactly true. Let us turn that one around. According to you, why are all non-US scientists blaming human interaction, and mainly the US? Could it be that these non-US scientists are in the employ of their respective governments? I smell money here! Throttle the US with it's environmental restrictions (which we have more of than any other country), but exempt us so we can gain economically over the US and destroy the Yankee dollar! There are many others. One from England -an admitted environmentalist- (can't remember his name right now) went after another fellow who argued aginst his and others' ideas concerning global warming. After intensive study I found out these others were right! He still believes in global warming as I perhaps do, but to what extent that human interaction is the main culprit is ludicrous. Our interaction might play some part, but to what extent it is still impossible to tell. So I say... let's clean up our act nevertheless; not because we're at fault, but because it's the right thing to do.

Latest report of junk science! Guess what? We now have 15% less oxigen on Earth! Well, why then are there still so many atheletes setting incredible records today? Fact- we breathe out most of the oxigen we breath in. (high school biology class, remember?)

Fact- tree huggers have won ther case. No tree thinning, no management of under brush clean up (might destroy habitats for many creatures). Now, we have rampant forest fires which cannot be contained. Too much fuel feeding the fires. This is just as stupid as PETA breaking into a lab and freeing lab animals who have never learned how to forage for themselves. Most of them die with a few days.

Let's slam the US more, but let's also remember China, who cuts 25 million trees a year, for what? ... chopsticks. This is a fact! How about the juck Oriental medicine which uses endagered species as ingredients for their "cures"? Blame the US for that one too!

Every living thing on the Earth causes polution. We can do our part to make it better. But it has to be everyone: not exempting many countries and blaming the US.

I laugh at both sides. Example- Mrs. A uses plastic bags at the store because she doesn't want to use paper bags, to save the trees. Mrs. B Use paper bags because plastic doesn't decompose readily and messes up the environment (let's not tell her there is bacteria which eats plastic). Then there's Mrs. C who solves the problem by using her own bags from home, made from burlap (Hmmm! Another environmental usage.) But she can't carry as much so she shops often and buys smaller container items... which uses up more resources. It seems we just can't win! Someone can allways successfully point to where Mrs. A,B and C are hurting the environment. And they are right!

So what do we do? Let's kill off the human race, starting with the hated Americans because it's primarilly their fault. With the human race gone the Earth will survive and thrive. No more of those pesky skiers who buy skis with wood in them, and plastics, etc! No more SUV's. No more using electricity for chair lifts (How wastful! Use so much electricity to get on a chair, ride up to the top and slide down just to get backon the chair again!)

So, let's do ourselves in! ............. NAAAAAW!
post #47 of 75
JimBob ya need to get out more, sort of take notice of the environment as it changes around you. It is best to be conservative when it comes to health issues.

Slatz is on the ball regarding the Pontiac GTO.

Okay ... the new Pontiac GTO is actually a rebadged Holden Monaro. The latest in a long line of V8 "muscle cars" from GM (Holden). This car will blow you all away and it will be made in Adelaide Oz and exported to the US.

Muscle Car

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #48 of 75
Originally posted by jyarddog:
Every living thing on the Earth causes polution. We can do our part to make it better. But it has to be everyone: not exempting many countries and blaming the US.
Yes it has to everyone and that is why the current stance on Kyoto by the US and Oz is so deplorable.

Countries such as ours should be world leaders in doing what is right for all. It is the basic "lead by example" scenario. Countries such as ours CAN afford to change their ways. Alas the profit before principle scenario is what corrupts the whole concept of "oneness". It is not all right to throw your rubbish over your neighbours fence anywhere I know.

post #49 of 75
Talk about throw rubbish over your neighbor's fence! Wow! it has now been decided that Mexican trucks (you know... the ones with no polution controls at all) will now be allowd onto US highways. Again about rubbish... every seen a Mexican river? They contain sludge, not water. We have led by example with more polution controls than any other country.

If we lived Greenland just before one of the ice ages some of these wackos would be blaming mankind for the Earth betting colder! (There are fossils of Magnolia flowers in Greenland.) Ya just can't win with these people. They have all the answers. Their minds are made up. Don't bother them with the facts, Jimbob. They are too much into cause and effect reasoning. If we go back to horse and buggy and stop all industrialization and the world still warms up (which it will) They will say, "good try, but too late. I told you so!" Find an effect and glue to it any thing which seemed to coincide as "the" cause to it, and call it scientific. Ergo- All herion addicts started out on milk. Therefore milk causes herion addiction! A non smoker will get cancer faster from second hand smoke than a moker will; we never made it to the moon- it was a hoax; the full moon causes you to go nuts; antiperspirant causes cancer; vitamin C cures the common cold (or some believe it prevents it); the Earth is flat (ok- I'll buy that one )- People really belive this stuff, and you can't dissuade them from their stance. They 'know' the truth!

Now lets stop this nonsense and go wax our skis. Skiing is just around the corner.... well, around the other side of the block.
post #50 of 75
Yeah! Skiing is more fun when it's warm anyway.
7 days till SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #51 of 75
JBB & jyardog, you have it right!

The earth was actually WARMER some 800 or 900 years ago before the "Little Ice Age". One proof of this is that the wine producing regions of France at that time extended about 300 miles farther north than they do today. The earth has been slowly warming for something like 200 or 300 years as it comes out of a relatively cooler period. I may be incorrect as to the exact years involved, but the point is that it is unlikely that human activity has had anything significant to do with this slight warming. Most likely (in my opinion) it is the result of fluctuations in solar activity.

Not so long ago, in the '70's, the doomsayers were warning about the onset of a new ice age. Some of these were the same people who are now on the global warming band wagon.

Carbon dioxide is actually not the most important or abudant "green house gas". By far the most important is water vapor. I wonder what will happen if the enviros get us all converted over to hydrogen fuel where the sole product of combustion will be good ole H-Two-Oh?

As for the new GTO - GM people: Please bring in the Holden Monero as is - Do NOT let those Pontiac stylists clutter it up with ugly plastic body cladding. Just do what is needed to pass US fed standards.
post #52 of 75
JimL- Well said. As to actual time periods, it is hard to remember all those ***ocene eras and their time periods. We could look them up, but we'd rather be skiing! There was a time when the North Sea was just a marsh land.

The Earth warms and cools due to solar activity and also Earth tilt or shift in its axis. The darned thang wobbles. There have been many times when the North pole did not point at the North star! Magnetic north/south has at times shifted or reversed. If that happens again soon, won't THAT open up a can of worms! We'll all have to get out our sharpies and relabel our compasses!

Hey! Try these stories on for junk science. both occured on two different nights during my night shifts at Gart...

I went to help a couple in camping. They wanted at least 3 good reliable camp lanterns, either propane or Colman fule type. I quiped, "Doing some big time camping?" They said, "No. This is for Y2K." I asked if they really believed that was going to happen. They siad, "Of course. Don't you?" I smiled and walked off. They shook their heads and chose their lanterns.

Another one was when a couple were looking for a good compass. I showed them some liquid filled ones and mentioned that if this were for a car they should look elsewhere for a very high quality one which wouldn't be affected by the surrounding metal of the car. They said this was for their home in order to find true north so they could align their furniture accordingly for harmony and good vibes to aid health of mind and soul! I mentioned that they better then get one which shows how to correct for declention in their area. They asked, "What's that?" bwahahahahaha!

And so it goes! People make quantum leaps in their decisions according to partial knowledge of science in order to support their agendas.

When electricity came on the scene hucksters invented all kinds of machines to aid health. Those who believed in the benefits of these machines could not be convinced they were no good. And the same arguement unsued as we have about global warming today.

Yes. The same who warned about a new ice age coming very soon (and I'm sure they blamed humans) are, in many cases, the ones who are screaming about global warming. Yup... it's gonna happen sooner or later. Many scream about how there has never been such a warming increase in recent history. WRONG! I believe back in the thirties there was a winter which was so warm the diciduous trees didn't lose their leaves! Now THAT's warm!

The point is, weather goes in cycles. we have many warming and cooling trends. These lie within larger time periods of warming and cooling trends, and so on, and so on. Will we warm up again? Yes. Will we cool off again? Yes. Is it a bad thing? No. It's just a thing! It happens.

People blame SUV's and the rest of the US for most of this. They point ot OUR industry and OUR cars for this immediate change! Hmmm! What about two world wars and the many other wars we had in the 20th century. I'm sure these people won't even blame Saddam for global warming for setting the oil field on fire and dumping oil into the sea! But then, I'm sure that again is our fault. Right?
Who knows? Maybe someday we will see farmers growing cotton and corn on the Alaska tundra! Try telling those farmers it's a bad thing. It's gonna happen, folks! It just may be the natural order of things.

I'm just waiting for someone to blame the US and/or human interaction for when the Earth shifts on its axis again. They will come up with some idiotic idea that somehow mankind knocked the Earth off kilter!

Let's see if we can come up with another goodie- Hmmm... Oh yeah! Those danged skiers! They ski around on our mountains and pack the snow down really hard. This makes it harder for the snow to melt in the spring, causing a very slow snow melt! Ergo- draughts and low water tables throught the country! See guys and galls? Again it's our fault; especially because we have so many skiers and snow boarders in the US.

This is, of course, an off-the-deep-end example merely for an illustration as to how obtuse some thinking patterns can become.

Here's a few I've seen here-

Example: The Beatles were popular for one reason only:
they were good singers.

Example: Uncle Horace says eating pork makes you smarter.
That's good enough for me.

Example: If you let your barber cut your hair, the next thing
you know he'll be lopping your limbs off.

Example: The sun causes sunburns.
Therefore, the planet would be better off without the sun.

Well, I've tweeked enough noses, today, and I don't really care anymore; especially when others and I have been called names here, and my country has been refered to as an A-hole country.

On the other hand I have no doubt in the skiing ability of everyone here. My compliments to all and their discussions and advice on technique and equipement.

However, one can not have a trap door mind to everything. A mind, like a parachute works best when it's open. On the other hand, it is wise not to sway with every wind of doctrine which blows our way.

I wish you all well.
post #53 of 75
OK, for arguements sake lets assume man is causing global warming. The real question is what to do about it. Raise gas to 15 bucks a gallon you say? Ban SUV's? fine but what r the CONSEQUENCES (A word many of us aren't familiar with). Well since Detroit makes ALL it's profit from trucks and SUV's they will all be out of business So we can kiss 100s of thousands of well paying jobs good-bye. But they can go work at McDonalds or something, no?

Ahh but then Mcdonalds and most all businesses rely on UPS and other forms of shipping so you can look for prices in general to increase substantually. My company uses about $3000 a month in fuel so that will go to say 30 grand which means our prices will have to rise which means our business will fall which means we will have to lay off a few people. Sucks to be them i suppose...(I'm the #1 driver so what do i care?? : )

But of course they wont be able to buy all those imported goods we bigshot wine lovers like so good bye Gucci, Mercedes and all the other Euro luxury goods manufactures (one of the few bright spots in the Euro economy) fortunantly you'll still have the Japanese and the Arabs so business will only drop by a third or so. what's a few more folks on the dole?

Ok, enough of the wise ass but you see my point. Al Gore and his toadies on the left are great at pointing out the problem but offer no workable solutions. Actually since he and his gang are often trust funders, tenured professors and other hangers on their solutions r fine for them but the rest of us Joe's will be SCREWED (oh, wait, they will give us a few hundred bucks a month welfare. But then with business down so much it's hard to see where the $$$ will come from since taxes receipts will fall)

As for the Kyoto Accords. Phuhleeeesss!!!! first of all the Euro's etc all signed it KNOWING the US wouldn't so now they can bash us, pat themselves on the back all the while enjoying the fact that they don't have to suffer the consequences of this stupid treaty. Talk about having you cake and eating it to!!!( the Euros love to play this game with military actions too, but that's another story...)

Next think about it. If I'm GM or Mercedes and all my 1st world manufacturing plants r suddenly subject to big pollution limits while the 3 rd world plants aren't--what am i going to do???? Yep, Big business Capitalistic Bastard that i am, i'm going to move all my manufacturing to the 3rd world, pay lower wages AND pollute the crap out of the whole planet from there (no restrictions). Kind of like those nature loving Communists did for 50 yrs...Meanwhile, we 1st worlders r left in the 'service economy' making 10 bucks an hour, but again, I'm already there so i'll be OK

No i'm not in favor of pollution but i like a strong economy too. There has to be a balance and people have to realise there are tradeoffs that come with every solution. but as long as the decisions are being made by hard-liners on both sides more interested in advancing an agenda nothing practical is going to get done. Instead we'll just creat more self-rightuos blustering and all that hot air just exascerbates the problem!!! : .

BTW, I hear there's a geopolitical angle to oil consumption: i hear the Arab Countries have squandered all their oil wealth and have big debts and non-functioning economies. If we cut our consumption to much they won't be able to service their debt or keep their people on the dole or buy that 300th Rolls Royce for that matter so they'll have riots, their gov'ts will fall and their people will suffer. So you see by buying an SUV you are actually supporting an important ally of ours, the Saudis. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #54 of 75
Originally posted by Trey:
No i'm not in favor of pollution but i like a strong economy too.
So, what sort of pollution control are you in favour of? All I have read in the post was that everyone in the world is out to get America.

Originally posted by Trey:
BTW, I hear there's a geopolitical angle to oil consumption.
Really? You mean the Gulf war wasn't because the West was concerned about Kuwait? You mean it was really about oil?
So, what you might be saying is that the West will protect nations that provide goods/services to maintain the West's greed, and cover it up under "humanitarian" guises.

That's an interesting theory.

post #55 of 75
So, what sort of pollution control are you in favour of?

Pollution control that works ALL the time. when a cars Pollution controls no longer work as new force people to replace them or park the car. Cars older than say 10 years that never had Emissions controls should be taken off the road without exception. That's how to cut car pollution, but it'll cost $$$$ and piss off the classic car guys and us poor folk too. an easy way to save oil is to require synthetic oil in all cars. they'll get a bit better gas mileage and don't need to be changed for 10,000 plus miles

All I have read in the post was that everyone in the world is out to get America.

Nah they just like to dislike/hate us partly b/c we have to do the Wests dirty work and partly b/c we try to pass it off as virtuous. We should just tell it like it is IMHO.

Really? You mean the Gulf war wasn't because the West was concerned about Kuwait? You mean it was really about oil?

Yep 'fraid so. We couldn't allow Saddam to control, Iraqs, kuwaits and --eventually--Saudi's oil or he would have had the West by the balls. But then u knew that didn't you....Why we tried to dress it up as some great humanitarian mission is beyond me

So, what you might be saying is that the West will protect nations that provide goods/services to maintain the West's greed, and cover it up under "humanitarian" guises.

Yep, sorry to say. Look at Zimbabwe. Mugavi (sic) is killing his own people, forbiding them to plant crops when there is a famine, and rigging elections to maintain his power. What does the West do? The europeans remove him from some favored nation list and then pat themselves on the back for taking "strong" action. As if Mugavi cares about some list. The US doesn't even know Zimbabwe exists best I can tell, but you can be sure if they had oil or had friends who had oil--like the Palestinieans--we'd be down there post haste, forthwith and w/o delay.
post #56 of 75
There are many solutions to world pollution issues. My first two steps would be.

1. Loose the "VICTIM" mentality.
2. Loose the "MORE IS BETTER" ethos.

For the record we just had the coldest night in inland Australia since "a bloody long time". The nice thing was the sky and air was clear of pollution and one could enjoy the winter star show in all its brilliance. In contrast the summer was a huge bushfire event and the hottest in Queensland ever. (Note parallels Montana & Colorado)

Perhaps the words "GLOBAL WARMING" should be changed to "ENVIRONMENT CARE". If one were to remove the contentious single title it would enable real environmental changes to be made. Everyone seems to agree that we need to eat, breath and drink clean food, air & water.

It is amusing that those that seem to say, "everything is fine" in regards to the ENVIRONMENT CARE issues are actually supporting the corporate world that is simply profit driven. Now the corporate world that seeks profit above all else cares nought for you as an individual. (As so spectacularly demonstrated recently in Oz & USA corporate collapse’s.)

The Monaro is certainly an impressive car BUT it encompasses dinosaur technology to cater for ego driven societies that rely on cheap fuel and high disposable incomes. In the context of current advances in individual transportation technology the Monaro is just a fast and fancy coal fired steam train.

post #57 of 75
Trey said it well! Balance.
Saddam invaded Kuwait. We stopped him. Added benefit was oil. What's wrong with that? There are always those who will find or invent something wrong in any noble act.

I still have my 83 Chevy. it has plenty of polution controls. With some exceptions, the American car has more of these controls than any other manufacturer in the world. And the American car has done a pretty good job of it too. Any cars imported have to adhere to these controls. If you buy one "over there" you have to install these controls before customs will let it in the country(unless it's considered an antique.)

How many people who are complaining about global warming got their cars DEQ checked, passed, and then readjusted their carburetors so it "runs good"? That's the "not in my back yard" mentality. Everyone else is poluting... not me. I used to have a 63 Ford wagon. when adjusted by DEQ it passed according to the standards of the times and according to theyear of the car. It ran fine afterwards with no engine damage. When I had my shop I refused to "readjust" customers' cars after they went through DEQ. If I had done so it would have cost me my business license and/or a hefty fine, perhaps even jail time; besides it wan't right and counter productive to the environment. The customers said , "I won't tell anybody." I asked, What if your car is found not to comply with DEQ settings and you are asked why you reset the adjustments? To keep from being fined yourself, you're darned tootin' you'd point the finger at me." I am sure I lost many customers due to this. I hurt myself; I hurt my family; I hurt my business; but I sure was environmentally conscious. But I can look in the mirror and say, "I did the right thing." And I'd do it again the same way.

So I laugh in the faces of those here who think I don't care about the environment.
post #58 of 75
Originally posted by jyarddog:
Trey said it well! Balance.
Saddam invaded Kuwait. We stopped him. Added benefit was oil. What's wrong with that? There are always those who will find or invent something wrong in any noble act.
jyarddog, I disagree with you.
Oil was not an "Added benefit"
Oil was the cause. As it was the cause of WWII
being fought on the Lybia/Egypt sands, Axis forces were trying to reach the Saudi and Iraqui oil fields...And Egypt was in the way.
Because of OIL Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Because of OIL we (yes, Italy did send our 8 Tornadoes 8...)had to stop it.
Human rights were an "added benefits"
Environment was the loser of that war.

Since this thread is about global warming:
Today while driving to work I heard on the radio
that the glacier above Macugnaga is melting, and has formed a lake , whose waters are menacing to flood the village.
I've never heard of a glacier melting so fast and
in such a way to form a lake, just because of the heat!
Maybe the news has been exaggerated, but if it will be confirmed, that's really worrying.
post #59 of 75
Man form OZ, foxy, Dog and Matteo: the point I was trying to make is that our western societies r a house of cards and if you pull out the "lots of pollution" card or the "cheap oil" card part of our 'house'is going to fall and that part may be YOUR part (ie your job. your lifestyle). For example, if oil gets too $$$ and pollution standard get too tough then the price of skis could increse to the point where few of us could afford them, and lift prices would rise too (running lifts takes power), and the price to get to the resorts could rise too, and the $ to buy the car to get to the resort would rise etc etc. At eh same time many of us could lose our jobs or see our pay cut and on and on. Call it Economic Gia (sic)Theory. The point is you can't just say "we must cut pollution at all cost" w/o considering what the costs r IF you want to have a SERIOUS debate. If you just want to mouth off self-rightious, feel-good PC crap then be my guest...

Foxy: My question to you is "what are you willing to give up to cut pollution? Those pricey bottles of wine (whose grapes were picked by Mexicans making 30-35 bucks a day, with no benefits BTW) may be a thing of the past.

Dog: Yes your car still has an emission system but it no longer functions (and never functioned very well). the converter died at 50 thou. Take a wiff of the pipe if you don't believe me. an interesting aside: I read people can't kill themselves with a modern car b/c it doesn't put out enough carbon monoxide.

Oz: Seems to me w/o profits companies can't pay US, their employees, or attract investment form the markets to grow and create nu jobs. Seems they be out of biz pretty sooon to me. Railing against profit is the sort of narcecistic left wing crap that drives me nuts : (right wing crap drives me nuts too. I need medication!!! ) REASONABLE profits aren't the problem, Exorbident or (our current prob here in the US) ILLUSORY profits r the problem. These stem form greedy management trying to cash out pronto with a 100 mill or so. I say give the bastards the death penality! They DO support it after all...

Matteo: RIGHT you are sir!!! We ONLY fought the Gulf war for oil, period, end of story. How do I know? I saw an interview with Schwartkopf, and Colin Powell and they said so, point blank. sorry Dog, but we didn't spend all those resources to save Kuwaits Monarchy. Our politicians really aren't that noble, you know, even the Democrats...

But to say we fought fer 'just' oil is to miss the point that the house of cards that is ALL of western civilization teeters on the fragile plinth of CHEAP oil. THAT's why the maintain such a huge military BTW, to keep that oil coming, and to keep it comin' cheap. Because W/o cheap oil there is no western civilization and we're ALLback to the hand plow so to speak.
post #60 of 75
"For example, if oil gets too $$$ and pollution standard get too tough then the price of skis could increse to the point where few of us could afford them, and lift prices would rise too (running lifts takes power), and the price to get to the resorts could rise too, and the $ to buy the car to get to the resort would rise etc etc. "

Things are not that simple obviously: there are strong duties on oil in Euro countries, and - even with the US $ going down right now - as well the ski gear prices as the lift prices (glaringly obvious about skipasses) are way lower than in North America (another debate, but I couldn't handle why skipass price in any resort is so incredibly hight !??!!).
On the other hand, concerning cars, yes it's all super pricey. Guess what ? people use to drive smaller or more economic cars.

Have a good day.

[ July 03, 2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Jackdaw ]
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