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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 34

post #991 of 1165
5/1/07 at 6:58pm
I don't even really think about where my weight is. It seems that I will adjust my weight distribution through the course of the turn without consciously thinking about it. At the beginning of the turn, I release my downhill ski as I would in any other situation by relaxing and flexing the inside leg. At that point my new outside or stance ski is weighted more than the new free foot. After that, it seems like my weight distribution will seek it's own level, that is my feet will react to whatever pressure is required to maintain balance, untill the finish of the turn. In the transition between the finish of the old turn into the beginning of the new turn, my weight distribution is probably as close to 50/50 as it is in any part of the turn. But I can't really say that I strive for any specific number, 60/40/, 70/30, etc, in any part of the turn. I more or less just respond to the pressure I fell under my feet at any given time. Just my take on the subject.
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post #992 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Can't see those submarines together. Is this a one leg turn or are you waiting for the right ski to hit the surface? Fat skis would be nice but skiing under the surface a bit is a trip also. Nice pic Slider. Looks like one of those counter, unwind turns. Otherwise known as powder skiing.
Those are fat skis! But what the hell is that thing under his nose! That alone would keep the weight from being 50'/50 depending on how much crap was encrusted on it.
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post #993 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Max I think you could get away (I know you could get away with) with less than equal in 6-8-10" (or maybe more) of snow, but when you start taking about turning in multiple FEET of snow (especially lighter density stuff like we get here), you want to minimize the heavy foot light foot as much as you can.
Why?
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post #994 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:33pm
Yeah and you should see it when he gets snow stuck on it .:: Some of us just seem to grey a bit sooner. I think I'll send him ...'the Reguvinator'
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post #995 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:36pm
I don't think about weight distribution in powder. Seems like the main things I change in powder is that instead of just flexing the stance leg to release, I flex both legs, tend to flex more deeply, and don't usually finish/complete my turns as much.

Disclaimer: It seems to work but I'm not sure it is correct as I'm not a real good or real experienced skier.
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post #996 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:48pm
Where's the after party?
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post #997 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
max max. You're funny. Good luck mate. I'll let someone else debate with you.
Do you have Ski the Whole Mountain by Eric and Rob DesLauriers?
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post #998 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:54pm
But which WHOLE MOUNTAIN?
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post #999 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:54pm
got it! I can now forget about this absolute waste of time... Good night, everybody!


By the way, congrats to everybody who helped create a piece of EPICSKI history... Any bets on when the next 1000 post thread will happen?


(Maybe if HH comes over here himself to openly and rationally discuss the various types of rotation?)
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post #1000 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
but anyone who has had to ski powder on skinny skis knows that it makes a dramatically improving difference to even up the weight distribution...whether or not its exactly 50/50 or not is kind of a moot nit pick point. Its no longer outside dominant in any case and much closer to even weighting.
Can we agree that skiing on skinny skis is old school and the technique required my not apply to modern shaped skis that have a huge surface in comparison to those old skis?

Eric and Rob DesLauriers have this to say (from the Powder chapter of Ski The Whole Mountain):

Quote:
Today, because wide skis float so much better, we no longer need a precise 50/50 weight split - the outside ski can take more pressure without diving.
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post #1001 of 1165
5/1/07 at 7:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Now the turn performance will be dictated by the base surface area of your ski pushing against a bankment of snow. In this case, evenly weighting your skis will in fact be more efficient at both turning you as well as floating you to the surface.
Yet the experts have this to say - From the Powder chapter (page 62):

Quote:
This does not really mean it is a 50/50 weight distribution between the skis. It can be 70 percent on the outside ski and 30 percent on the inside ski, or it could be 60/40, or even 80/20. Go with whatever works at the time and feels good.
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post #1002 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Why?
Some things to consider Max. When the snow has no bottom, the edge is not being used to pressure and decamber the ski, it has nothing to bite into and draw the ski into the turn. So it is the entire bottom of the ski that pressures and decambers the ski. Getting the skis to decamber equally for a given turn radius will require pressure that is biased to almost equal rather than weighted to our normal solid surface pressure bias. Read what you said yourself.

Quote:
Consider that in powder the ski sinks until enough snow is packed under the base to create a platform. Consider that the tip and tail are quite a bit wider than the waist. This suggests that the tip and tail will find resistance before the waist. If so, pressure under the foot bends the ski into an arc in powder.
As you said, it is all in the platform that you can create. Creating platforms that keep both skis turning in harmony together requires that the pressure between the two is pretty close to equal. In snow with no bottom, tipping only serves to give direction to the decambered ski, it doesn't dig in the edge more. I'll go further and say that in powder, if you have a big difference in pressure from ski to ski and you still manage to get the turn done, then you are steering one (inside) pretty heavily. Or put in a question, how does the inside ski get by with considerably less pressure and still turn?

And I do ski lots of powder, every year, on short shaped skis and on not so shaped skis too. Skiing powder works the same on all my skis. Turn shape will vary depending on the skis ability to decamber though. Which I agree is related to it's overall shape, but not the actual shape of the edge digging in.

Listen to what BTS is really saying.
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post #1003 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:21pm
and who exactly said "precise 50/50". You're the only person calling out exact ratios as if there is a way to measure it.
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post #1004 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:48pm
RicB, well said.
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post #1005 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
and who exactly said "precise 50/50". You're the only person calling out exact ratios as if there is a way to measure it.
You did. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
In this case, evenly weighting your skis will in fact be more efficient at both turning you as well as floating you to the surface.
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post #1006 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
When the snow has no bottom, the edge is not being used to pressure and decamber the ski, it has nothing to bite into and draw the ski into the turn. So it is the entire bottom of the ski that pressures and decambers the ski. Getting the skis to decamber equally for a given turn radius will require pressure that is biased to almost equal rather than weighted to our normal solid surface pressure bias.
Of course we aren't talking about using edges when skiing powder. But the shape still comes into play for bending the ski. The more shape the more bend you will end up with for a given pressure amount.

The skis have to be at the same angle, there is no question about that (just like on hard snow). But do they need to be weighted evenly? When we ski on a hard snow surface the outside ski is typically bent far more than the inside ski yet both skis carve little lines.
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post #1007 of 1165
5/1/07 at 8:57pm
Hey Max . Congrats on the 1,000th post.
Isn't 50/50 something we did with straight skis because some of us had their legs stuck together? I admit to being one of them especially in powder
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post #1008 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Of course we aren't talking about using edges when skiing powder. But the shape still comes into play for bending the ski. The more shape the more bend you will end up with for a given pressure amount.
So if your aren't weighting them more equally, then how can you bend them equally to make them take the same path? You can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The skis have to be at the same angle, there is no question about that (just like on hard snow). But do they need to be weighted evenly? When we ski on a hard snow surface the outside ski is typically bent far more than the inside ski yet both skis carve little lines.
On hard snow, there is no lateral resistance to turning the skis. So the inside ski follows along nicely because when it's lighter, and it's easier to rotate (if you believe in such thing). In powder, that's out the window as the snow provides significant resistance to us rotating the skis.....
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post #1009 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Isn't 50/50 something we did with straight skis because some of us had their legs stuck together?
I never skied powder on straight skis so I can't comment from personal experience.

However, Eric and Rob DesLauriers have this to say (Powder chapter) -

Quote:
When we skied on narrow, 65mm giant slalom skis, we needed a 50/50 weight distribution to avoid burying the outside ski.
If you can ski in 3 feet of powder with a 70/30 weight distribution and your outside ski isn't diving then what's the problem?
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post #1010 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So if your aren't weighting them more equally, then how can you bend them equally to make them take the same path? You can't.
And yet I do it all of the time. Its amazing how often I hear that I can't do something that I'm already doing.

BTW, are you saying that the expert instruction written in the Powder chapter of Ski The Whole Mountain is wrong?
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post #1011 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
And yet I do it all of the time. Its amazing how often I hear that I can't do something that I'm already doing.

BTW, are you saying that the expert instruction written in the Powder chapter of Ski The Whole Mountain is wrong?
Max,

Re-read. I didn't' say 50/50. I say MORE EQUALLY. And the reason you can "do it" (which in this case I am interpreting as moving your skis through similar paths), is because you're adding some rotary movements to move your feet/skis which allows you do that. The skis isn't moving because you're bending it. It's moving because you're steering it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I'm shaping the turn by pressuring the skis and applying no rotary input, but I'm doing 70/30 weight distribution...." Something's got to give.

Better yet show me how to do it in waist deep 5% snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you can ski in 3 feet of powder with a 70/30 weight distribution and your outside ski isn't diving then what's the problem?
In this case it isn't what the outside ski is doing that's important, it's what the INSIDE ski is doing....
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post #1012 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So if your aren't weighting them more equally, then how can you bend them equally to make them take the same path? You can't.
Your skis don't follow the same path too often. Only when not turning.
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post #1013 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Your skis don't follow the same path too often. Only when not turning.
Gary, read above and quit splitting hairs...

Yes, it's a similar path. It's not "the same". But if I say "the same" there's an understanding here about what that means...
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post #1014 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post

Can we agree that skiing on skinny skis is old school and the technique required my not apply to modern shaped skis that have a huge surface in comparison to those old skis?
What many people have tried to point out time and again in this never-ending debate about the "modern" nature of PMTS is that good skiing has been good skiing since long before shaped skis came along and even longer before HH started selling books.

These two photos were taken almost exactly 22 years apart. One in 1985 and one in 2007. In the 1985 photo, I'm on 204cm K2 712's, which probably had a waist width of about 62mm. In the 2007 photo, I'm on 186cm Head iM88's, with a waist width of 88mm.

Aside from powder skiing being much EASIER on wider skis, the MOVEMENTS that will make a turn are essentially unchanged.

So, no, I don't agree that the technique required needs to be any different at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
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post #1015 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Gary, read above and quit splitting hairs...

Yes, it's a similar path. That's an understood here...
Not much differant than using a scale to dictate our weighting. It is only very rarely that your skis would be equally weighted. A short moment as you edge change maybe.
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post #1016 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
What many people have tried to point out time and again in this never-ending debate about the "modern" nature of PMTS is that good skiing has been good skiing since long before shaped skis came along and even longer before HH started selling books.

These two photos were taken almost exactly 22 years apart. One in 1985 and one in 2007. In the 1985 photo, I'm on 204cm K2 712's, which probably had a waist width of about 62mm. In the 2007 photo, I'm on 186cm Head iM88's, with a waist width of 88mm.

Aside from powder skiing being much EASIER on wider skis, the MOVEMENTS that will make a turn are essentially unchanged.

So, no, I don't agree that the technique required needs to be any different at all.
The skiing in the bottom picture is much better. You got a smile in the bottom one
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post #1017 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Aside from powder skiing being much EASIER on wider skis, the MOVEMENTS that will make a turn are essentially unchanged.

So, no, I don't agree that the technique required needs to be any different at all.
So, you were able to ski on the old skinny skis with a weight distribution of 70/30 without sinking the outside ski?
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post #1018 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:49pm
DAMN!!! Missed #1000 while studying for the chem final.
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post #1019 of 1165
5/1/07 at 9:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, you were able to ski on the old skinny skis with a weight distribution of 70/30 without sinking the outside ski?
If he was going fast enough. sure.
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post #1020 of 1165
5/2/07 at 1:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post


Was it? I'm too lazy to go back and read it. Isn't that where VSP said I was too far forward right before someone else said I was too far back?
He was just commenting on your skiing (with a lot of expertise IMHO), on the result, not bothering about the system, about believes or what so ever.
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