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# Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 33

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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 1000 here we come

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 ow beyond that, in powder snow is a completely different set of physics. Edge effectiveness is no longer an issue AT ALL. Now the turn performance will be dictated by the base surface area of your ski pushing against a bankment of snow. In this case, evenly weighting your skis will in fact be more efficient at both turning you as well as floating you to the surface.
Consider that in powder the ski sinks until enough snow is packed under the base to create a patform. Consider that the tip and tail are quite a bit wider than the waist. This suggests that the tip and tail will find resistance before the waist. If so, pressure under the foot bends the ski into an arc in powder. If that is the case when you ski with 50/50 weighting you are bending the ski less than you could with 60/40 or 70/30 weighting.
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 Originally Posted by Max_501 Consider that in powder the ski sinks until enough snow is packed under the base to create a patform. Consider that the tip and tail are quite a bit wider than the waist. This suggests that the tip and tail will find resistance before the waist. If so, pressure under the foot bends the ski into an arc in powder. If that is the case when you ski with 50/50 weighting you are bending the ski less than you could with 60/40 or 70/30 weighting.
Right, BUT, and this is a HUGE but, with what you are describing, you are also bending the skis at different rates and therefore the two skis will at that point have different turning radii. This is not to mention differential resistance to turning in the snow that the skis will have being a different depths.

Max I think you could get away (I know you could get away with) with less than equal in 6-8-10" (or maybe more) of snow, but when you start taking about turning in multiple FEET of snow (especially lighter density stuff like we get here), you want to minimize the heavy foot light foot as much as you can.

Trust me on this one.....
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100% correct. You are so right. why is everybody discussing things here on this topic, that are so obvious? Why is everybody so cautious, almost in doubt of what they know for sure?
Skidding becomes something like carving, when it is intentionally done: , so we call it scarving (doesn't sound so bad) and clearly visible tailpushing is the same movement as carving :

Max, no offense! I my perception you are a good skier. That's not the issue here. But to someone who doesn't know about PMTS and to whom the word "bulletproof" has only something to do with protection against incomming bullets, this all sounds a bit .....

The long posting of VSP in the beginning of this thread is the best of them all. The system by which one learns (PMTS) is ok if it is really helping the student (in Max' case it is). But when you judge someones skiing (although Max didn't ask for it), you don't look at the system that's behind it, you look at what you see.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Consider that in powder the ski sinks until enough snow is packed under the base to create a patform. Consider that the tip and tail are quite a bit wider than the waist. This suggests that the tip and tail will find resistance before the waist. If so, pressure under the foot bends the ski into an arc in powder. If that is the case when you ski with 50/50 weighting you are bending the ski less than you could with 60/40 or 70/30 weighting.
That is an interesting outlook, perhaps based a lot on the idea of (A) using SuperShape skis or something similar a lot, (B) perhaps you're used to skiing on skis that are fatter than they need to be and (C) that you need extremely short radius turns in powder.

First of all, what I said above is in fact based on the idea that the snow is packing underneath your base. That is a given. If it didn't, you wouldn't turn at all.

Secondly, your skis are going to bend a lot, regardless of whether your feet are on skinny waists while your tip and tail or super fat ala Super Shapes. Yes, I see where you are coming from that PERHAPS you will bend the ski more by having more snow resistance tip and tail, though I question how significant that will be in powder snow. Its not the same effect as when you're on hard snow to bend the ski to the shape of the sidecut. The ski flex characteristics will have a much greater impact on how much the ski will bend because powder snow will not provide the same level of centripetal force on your tip and tail that hard snow would.

But the question I have is why do you feel you need so much more bend in the ski that you need to hyper load all on one ski to get even more bend? Not only that, but you have somewhat of a conflict of interest there. If you go with a skinnier waist, then you are reducing the overall float of the ski, regardless of how much it will bend. That means you would need even more even weighting to float through the deep stuff. You are suggesting that a skier should compromise their float by using a skinnier wasted ski and putting more weight on the the outside, in order to get a shorter radius turn.

Max, this might work in 6 inches or less, but you're gonna struggle in really deep pow that way. Besides being able to turn, you have to be able to float. Standing on one ski will reduce your float dramatically, particularly if you're using a skinny waisted ski like the SS.

Further to that, if you are skiing in partially cut up snow, then standing unevenly on your skis or even just getting a wide foot distance(including vertically) can easily result in your skis being deflected in dissimilar directions.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 The ski flex characteristics will have a much greater impact on how much the ski will bend because powder snow will not provide the same level of centripetal force on your tip and tail that hard snow would.
I understand why some people like to ski a noodle in powder. And for the first hour or two it probably makes alot of sense. But where I ski the snow gets cut up so darn fast that you need a stiffer ski to handle the chowder and crud that the rest of the day brings.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 But the question I have is why do you feel you need so much more bend in the ski that you need to hyper load all on one ski to get even more bend?
Hyperloading? All on one ski? Where did I type that? Regardless, tight radius turns are handy to ski the type of terrain we have at Bachelor.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 You are suggesting that a skier should compromise their float by using a skinnier wasted ski and putting more weight on the the outside, in order to get a shorter radius turn.
When did I say to go with a skinnier ski? I just said the waist is skinnier than the tip and tail which is true for almost all skis except for the reverse sidecut breed.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Max, this might work in 6 inches or less, but you're gonna struggle in really deep pow that way. Besides being able to turn, you have to be able to float. Standing on one ski will reduce your float dramatically, particularly if you're using a skinny waisted ski like the SS.
At what point did I suggest standing on one foot? That would be crazy in deep powder! Bachelor got something like 30 feet of snow this year. If there was a powder day I was skiing it. I'm well aware of what it takes to float in powder. BTW, if I feel I need a bit more float I just go a bit faster.
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 Originally Posted by Dutchman But to someone who doesn't know about PMTS and to whom the word "bulletproof" has only something to do with protection against incomming bullets, this all sounds a bit .....
I didn't name the turns, HH did. However, I think they are well named.

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 Originally Posted by Dutchman The long posting of VSP in the beginning of this thread is the best of them all.
Was it? I'm too lazy to go back and read it. Isn't that where VSP said I was too far forward right before someone else said I was too far back?
Max, I'm not trying to get into you quote me and I quote you debates. I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to you. maybe some day it will. Good luck.
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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Max, I'm not trying to get into you quote me and I quote you debates. I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to you. maybe some day it will. Good luck.
Honest question, how many powder days did you manage to enjoy in the last 3 seasons?
Boy, in the last 3 seasons I don't know, but I've had hundreds of them over the course of the past 30 years mate.
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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Boy, in the last 3 seasons I don't know, but I've had hundreds of them over the course of the past 30 years mate.
And how many would you guess were on shaped skis?
max max. You're funny. Good luck mate. I'll let someone else debate with you.
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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 max max. You're funny. Good luck mate. I'll let someone else debate with you.
I'm asking because you are clearly in the old school 50/50 weight distribution for skiing powder. Why is that? Why haven't you switched to modern application of movements and weighting for powder based on modern ski design?
Lol
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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Lol
About what? Are you, or are you not, advocating a 50/50 weight distribution for skiing powder with modern skis (its pointless to talk about old straight skis)?
I told you already Max, I don't want to engage in the direction you are going. You seem to feel that you know what you're talking about. So good on ya. Good luck.
At what point of the turn?
Getting closer.......(tick tock)
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 Originally Posted by borntoski683 I told you already Max, I don't want to engage in the direction you are going. You seem to feel that you know what you're talking about. So good on ya. Good luck.
Lets be completely clear. I said 60/40 or 70/30 and you then interpreted that to be "HYPER LOADING" the outside ski.

Do you feel that 60/40 or 70/30 is a bad idea in powder?
Max, you mentioned that you are specifically wanting to put more weight on the outside ski in order to get it to bend more. In the context of powder skiing, I used the term hyper-loading because I don't know of anyone that has ever expressed a desire to do that. Maybe "hyper" is a strong word. Sorry if it bothers you. But your desire to load more weight on one ski for the purpose of making it bend is pretty much opposite of how I think about skiing powder, and so for me...its hyper. In powder I strive for even weighting. Is it always 50/50, undoubtedly not. I'm sure it varies quite a bit, but at no time am I intentionally trying to put more weight on the outside ski to make it bend more.

Regarding your other comments about old school skiing and new equipment, etc.. they are unfounded and ridiculous...
For the sake of argument, lets use a 10 stone (140 lbs) skier.
70/30 means 56 more pounds on one ski. In SOME deep powder that I've skied if you put 56 more pounds on one ski you can easily imagine that ski calling out "DIVE! DIVE! DIVE!" just before you start inhaling snow.
(theme music from JAWS is getting louder...) :

You can sense the impending action... a few serious comments, then a flurry of activity as the attack upon that magic number happens.....

Who will it be... DD223, the night owl? VSP, the snake? Lonnie, the Lucky? BTS seems to want to mount a serious challenge to the number as well! Or maybe MAX, who started all this fun to begin with!

Will it happen tonight? Tomorrow morning? But it WILL happen!

History in the making!!! And YOU were part of it!
50/50 is one of the enduring ski myths. Wasn't even true with the old skinny skis.
alright, Volkskier is back! We are sure to hit 1000 now...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by vail snopro (theme music from JAWS is getting louder...) : You can sense the impending action... a few serious comments, then a flurry of activity as the attack upon that magic number happens..... Who will it be... DD223, the night owl? VSP, the snake? Lonnie, the Lucky? BTS seems to want to mount a serious challenge to the number as well! Or maybe MAX, who started all this fun to begin with! Will it happen tonight? Tomorrow morning? But it WILL happen! History in the making!!! And YOU were part of it!
I think we should all agree to let Max have it!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 But your desire to load more weight on one ski for the purpose of making it bend is pretty much opposite of how I think about skiing powder, and so for me...its hyper. In powder I strive for even weighting. Is it always 50/50, undoubtedly not. I'm sure it varies quite a bit, but at no time am I intentionally trying to put more weight on the outside ski to make it bend more.

So, why do you strive for 50/50? When you get 60/40 or even 70/30 why did you do it?
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 Originally Posted by Ghost For the sake of argument, lets use a 10 stone (140 lbs) skier. 70/30 means 56 more pounds on one ski. In SOME deep powder that I've skied if you put 56 more pounds on one ski you can easily imagine that ski calling out "DIVE! DIVE! DIVE!" just before you start inhaling snow.
At the least we need to consider the density of the snow, the surface area of the skis, and the speed of travel. It may be that when taken into consideration the outside ski sinks very little when pressured.
I suck @ skiing so I don't worry about pressure management in Powder.: Maybe I should get some of those FAT skis.
I'm here to help Max get to 1,000.
The outside ski always turns at a differant radius because of it's place in the turn . Having more weight on it would , could ,make it run at the desired turn radius to turn together with the inside. ski Basically evenly weighted enough to turn together but not even closely weighted as far as a 50/50 is concerned. Also we engage whatever sidecut we have available and pressure is necessary to cause this.
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 Originally Posted by slider I suck @ skiing so I don't worry about pressure management in Powder.: Maybe I should get some of those FAT skis.
Can't see those submarines together. Is this a one leg turn or are you waiting for the right ski to hit the surface? Fat skis would be nice but skiing under the surface a bit is a trip also. Nice pic Slider. Looks like one of those counter, unwind turns. Otherwise known as powder skiing.
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