Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 4

I'm moving this sentence to the humor forum.

(and as a side note....the reason this will never happen is PMTS limits what can be done on a pair of skis. Therefore.....Max and any other PMTS devotees will never be able to move around on the hill the way VSP can because the movements available (bag of tricks) will just never be learned.)

and yes.....I've seen Ric ski.....I'd have skied with the rest of the PMTS heros had they showed at LGC III....they were right here......a few miles away and wouldn't show. The best I have to compare to is SCSA, and while Paul is an excellent skier, VSP would school him bigtime.

You're missing the point Uncle Louie. Glad to hear you and your buddies think you are better then everyone else.

Rusty, please help me. how did you capture the video? I have had no luck capturing the video from blip.

No!

This is an insult. Apologize to redeem yourself.

Walk this way!

Please point out the limiting factors of PMTS. What movements are available to VSP that are not to a PMTS skier?

Well, for one, I'd say the worm turn definitely violates PMTS principles as having too much rotary!

Max, as we tip toe along the line of a slanging match, before it goes further I'd just like to say thanks for posting the video.
Your attitude on here is something that many of us (myself included) could learn from.

Epic spin

Now this quote is reminiscent of a "swinging Richard" contest that HS would introduce to foul a thread. Must you?
Just to be clear what is LGC and SCSA?

Bolter:
LGC = Let's Go Colorado - take a look in the "on th hill" section of the forum - there's been a few of them.

SCSA = famous poster, frequents realskiers and a sometimes strong proponent of PMTS

You gotta fight! For your right! To PAAAARTA!

I second that!

BTS,

I ponied up the $$$ and got a product called Replay AV (formerly called Windows Media Recorder and a couple of other names, it has changed names so many times you'd think it was a con artist). The current version is only slightly less non-intuitive than it's predecessors and I've had trouble capturing some of the clips from some of the sites, but overall it's a ton better than viewing the clips using the online viewers. As a bonus feature, it converts the unusable flash video into .avi that can be viewed in V1 (highly compressed flash however is too compressed to be analyzed - the converted clips have blurred area where anything moves). To anyone that thinks I have any MA talent, I've fooled you all because I cheat like hell.

Indigestion or not, this reply gives me NOTHING to chew on. It is flippant and shows no thought (why bother?). Slang also fits that description, WTFH was right.

There have been 4 LGC events in the last three years.

SCSA is also quoted in the front cover of at least one of Harald's books.

Answering Bolter's other questions. What is not available to PMTS, rotation/ skidding and from what I gather vertical motion if done to unweight the ski. I've seen video of Art Furrer's javelin turn done as a drill too. I know PMTS focuses on outside ski dominance, any skiing on the other ski as the dominant ski?

As he didn't address it maybe Bolter has no idea what a worm turn is. Maybe if I address a slightly more common move that PMTS would frown on, he may become enlightened. How about a helicopter? Lots of unweighting and rotation there. Maybe PMTS'ers have never been to a park either. It's all part of skiing.

For what it's worth I think Max's turns are excellent. I think VSP was a little tough on him in not calling him an expert. He appears very controlled on some steep (what I know to be) single black terrain.
Max is an excellent spokesman for PMTS and a fine skier for sure.

I still stand by my statements that PMTS has its short comings. When I see somebody skiing pure PMTS movements in a 8-10' wide chute that is on the plus side of 40 degrees or view a first day beginner class that works, maybe I'll come away with a different viewpoint.

No, I'm not, to the first statement in your post.

I am sure my buddies don't think that.

happy trails BTS

Max,

Although I've been through several variations of indoor measurement techniques and I can do a fair job spotting the potential for issues on snow, I am not trained in alignment. I certainly can't jump on alignment issues the way that Harald does (BTW - from some of the threads on Realskiers, I think he sometimes jumps a little too fast - but what do I know). I prefer to see isolated straight run clips on a flat pitch before I make any definite pronouncements. I did not even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. So much for the caveats.

It's interesting to note that you say the problem is with your right foot and that it's canting, while I have observed the LEFT foot lifting the tip of the ski (i.e. wrong foot and canting has nothing directly to do with fore/aft balance as far as I know). It's also interesting that a lot of the talk in this thread has been about getting too far forward when lifting the tip is a sign of being too far back. Finally, please note that I've observed the move at least once in every short turn clip except for the retraction turns (1:21 - 1:45).

With respect to seeing something in the second clip, you've got me. Between the black pants against the dark background, the skiers cutting in front of the camera, the zoom out toward the end of the clip when you get closer, the absence of straight on shots with the skis flat, the absence of a side shot and the scarcity of straight on in the fall line shots you'd either have to be a God or know what you're looking for to positively see anything different. Since the tip lifting movement is consistently present throughout most of the clips, I'm confused as to why an alignment change in the second clip is responsible.

Just my 2 cents.

Which book?

My oops Rusty. SCSA is quoted on page 3 in the Essentials book.

Paul K---Eagle CO.

(I apologize in advance for this)

I agree wholeheartedly. Everyone knows that

Anyone

Can

Be

An

Expert

Skier


Max has obviously worked hard and made some steady improvements in his skiing. With these movement patterns Max should be able to safely ski any resort terrain under any conditions. That's expert skiing in my book. Yet, Harald has stated he considers the qualification for "expert" to be much higher. From what I've read of Harald's online definition of an expert, Max is not there yet. YMMV.

For the issue of context/enlightenment. I skied with Wang Wong at a freestyle/race summer camp at Jackson Hole in 1970 (or so). I "wormed" my way from skiing SL with Pepi and his coaches on the flats, up to the "cool guys" skiing the steep bumps. We were wormin'! I know what a worm turn is and I know it has no place in determining the merits of a teaching system or the movements of that system.
Rotation? You mean the rotary mechanism in which torque is applied to the skis by slowing or stopping rotary movement of the upper body- rotary momentum is thus transferred to the skis. I do not want that as a foundation movement in my skiing. Do you? Nay, you don't.
Vertical motion to unweight the skis is in the same boat. Not a prescribed movement in any viable ski method I want to adopt.
Skidding Sucks. It is the least refined, far left of the carving spectrum, action a ski can do. The skis are pivoted at an angle to the Direction of travel sliding sideways, loss of traction! Ya like that sort of thing? I don't.
I think if you look for "Pure Movements" you will find none anywhere in any system. Bolter

OK, how about a Hop turn then?

I personally, would be honored to receive skiing advice from such an elite coach as Ric Reiter (VSP) and to receive that MA free of charge makes it all the more valuable! To reach true expert skiing one must be open to many concepts and experiment with various inputs and then decide what works and what doesn't. To take only one view and believe it is the only way, is naive and limiting. I have been lucky enough to ski with many different ski pros and have learned something from all of them!

Take the blinders off, evaluate for yourself the value of tidbits of advice you hear (especially from the caliber of a coach like VSP) and make your own decisions.

Max501, you are a good skier! The beauty of skiing is that we are never there, we can always learn and improve which is part of the fun!

b

Take out the PMTS part, and that I can agree with. A good turn is a good turn, and the "mother turn" is going to be your med. radius turn. I only say take out the PMTS part because I don't think a good turn is unique to PMTS, not because I have a problem with "PMTS Turns".

It requires up-unweighting and rotary.

We used to have a drill in the 60's called check-hops. Basically an edge set and a hop-turn. Done to the extreme one could hop turn until they stopped and started to go back up the hill. It helped develop some timing and quickness of edge set, and helped my 118 lb body steer 200 cm skis through a slalom course.

I guess it helps me now in breakable crust to have a good hop, but Max seems to get through cruddy stuff just fine. He skis at a place which specializes in less than perfact snow.

I took a ski test once for the the ski patrol and we had to cram as many turns into a short distance as we could. Some of the skiers couldn't fit in many but I had my oh-so-valuble check hop training and did a zillion.

Next time we ski Max we'll have a hop turn ski off! It will discredit PTMS once and for all, and prove that if you aren't going to take the same path to proficiency we did you are wasting your time!

Now, if it could just get rid of some of my lingering up movements......

Epic,

Part of the PMTS "program" is that they are doing something different. The "P" in PMTS means "primary". PMTS teaches that these moves make everything else happen and they should be made in all turns regardless of conditions. It is most certainly fair for Max to refer to "PMTS turns". It accurately reflects what he is being taught.

Further, I also agree with the PMTS concept that the short turn is the proof of ownership of the movement patterns. As I understand the "bulletproof" semantics is that if you own the moves in the short turns, you can do the moves in any shaped turn.

What's interesting to me is that I think of making small adjustments to deal with differing conditions. What an interesting concept that a mental focus on primary movements obviates the need for a mental focus on making small adjustments!