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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 22

post #631 of 1165
4/19/07 at 1:24pm
Rick,

Other than by brute force (manually/muscularly), couldn't he also achieve this via accurate management of the core thru and out of the old turn/into the new turn - without a 'must do' pivot?

Basically the flow that Ott refers to simply or right back to the point theRusty made with his animated sequence 500 or 600 posts ago...
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post #632 of 1165
4/19/07 at 1:28pm
Re: Ligety...Turn the feet by pulling them back, tipping and counterbalancing without counteraction.

Seriously, from my understanding of PMTS, since there is no snow under the skis to "resist the twist" when the feet are tipped, the femurs are free to rotate in the hip sockets. The femurs rotate and the feet turn. Even though the focus of the activity is on tipping, the outcome is that the feet are redirected.

PMTS movements do not require snow contact to redirect the skis, because those movements in and of themselves can generate one heck of a lot of rotary force. :

I think that's pretty much how that works.

Max, please correct me if I am wrong.
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post #633 of 1165
4/19/07 at 1:28pm
[quote=Rick;697488]This is correct. There's more to it. Done alone, relaxing the legs sends skier into the snow,,, not into the new turn.[/quote
]
There is more to it. One of the movements to add is extension
In the case of (from) deep inside leg flexion in the fall line (at the gate)...

IMO the movements/events are:
Arc tightens
Release (outside leg/ski)
Re-centering movements (leading to Neutral)
ILE to raise the hips from the snow approaching neutral
Neutral
Balancing and tipping movements
Deflection
Inside leg/hip flexion with outside leg/hip extention... back in the fall line again. Repeat.
"DIRT" variables injected into the above would cover most situations.
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post #634 of 1165
4/19/07 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Which relates back to Max's skiing.

A few of you have correctly identified that he has difficulty recovering to a fore position for the start of his new turn, and it carries through the entire turn. This is because he is trying to execute these deep flexion transitions during arc to arc turns. There is no pivot phase to allow him to catch up from his hips back position. To catch up in these arc to arc turns, he will have to generate all the force needed to drive his CM back to the front of his skis manually/muscularly. Currently, he's not doing it.
and that's why HH is telling him to pull his skis back more.
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post #635 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Rick,

Other than by brute force (manually/muscularly), couldn't he also achieve this via accurate management of the core thru and out of the old turn/into the new turn - without a 'must do' pivot?
Exactly, Chris. And this is why I'm not fond of this much retraction during arc to arc turns.

http://www.therusty.com/images/epic/max/max_flex.jpg

As Uncle Louie pointed out, when you flex the knee this much, it drops the hips back and puts a skier in the back seat, as can be clearly seen in Max's image above. No getting around it, to get fore balanced for the start of the next turn, and without the inclusion of a pivot, those hips are going to have to be manually pulled back up and forward.

Less flexion better allows for the fore/aft transitional managment you speak of. I've lost the link to the Canadian site that had the freeskiing videos of Grandi, Guay, and others. If someone could, please post it. It shows what such management done well looks like.
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post #636 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Less flexion better allows for the fore/aft transitional managment you speak of. I've lost the link to the Canadian site that had the freeskiing videos of Grandi, Guay, and others. If someone could, please post it. It shows what such management done well looks like.


Ask and you shall receive:

http://youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm

Grandi's is especially nice.
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post #637 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
Ask and you shall receive:

http://youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm

Grandi's is especially nice.

Thank's DD.

Gang,,, pan down to the collection of freeskiing videos
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post #638 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
And this is why I'm not fond of this much retraction during arc to arc turns.
As I understand it, this skiing was intended to be an exaggerated drill.

He might initiate from his sitting position by simply rolling his knees across so the skis tip to their new edges. As already pointed out, from this position, it takes muscle, and the geometry of the legs and hips will tend to generate a pivot entry. It can be controlled, but it will take more effort than an initiation from a more upright stance.

Deb Armstrong commented some time back on the necessity of moving with the skis, rather than just laterally. That's another component that's difficult when the hips are too far back. Again, it takes muscle to clean it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
As Uncle Louie pointed out, when you flex the knee this much, it drops the hips back and puts a skier in the back seat, as can be clearly seen in Max's image above.
It also increases the risk of knee injury if anything goes wrong.

Still, this was, I think, intended as a drill, not as a final form.
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post #639 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Re: Ligety...Turn the feet by pulling them back, tipping and counterbalancing without counteraction.
BigE, why do the feet need pulled back? Isn't the core already on a path that will put it down hill from the feet?
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post #640 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
BigE, why do the feet need pulled back? Isn't the core already on a path that will put it down hill from the feet?
In some cases... but not always (as we see here).
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post #641 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Are retraction transitions (and understand, I consider a retraction transition one in which the legs flex as needed to create lightness/float in both feet until after neutral) the bread and butter default transition of the system? How much do you guys use transitions with pressure transfer and maintainance to/on the new outside ski before neutral when freeskiing?
I don't think Max quite answered this, so I'll give it a go. There are three transitions taught in PMTS. In the clips people are focussing on, Max is doing 2 footed releases, which I think is what you call a retraction turn.

The second kind of transition is the "super phantom" one footed release, in which only the old outside leg is flexed. That transfers pressure to the new stance leg before that skis changes edges. I think the two are used about equally often, depending on cicrcumstances.

The third is the "weighted release", in which the old outside ski is kept weighted until after it changes edges.
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post #642 of 1165
4/19/07 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
(as we see here)
Guess 'we' see it differently

I expect BigE sees it the way you do.
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post #643 of 1165
4/19/07 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Guess 'we' see it differently

I expect BigE sees it the way you do.
I mean generically speaking, either option is open to the skier to use... but in Max's clips (for the most part) his movements start from the feet, versus letting his upper body pull his feet into the turn like we see in some of the photo's from Ron's site... I don't see Max's upper body doing a whole lot of leading through the transition in his carved turns.

Later

GREG
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post #644 of 1165
4/19/07 at 3:30pm
Greg, I was referring to the Ligety link Rick posted and I believe BigE was referencing.
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post #645 of 1165
4/19/07 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
I don't think Max quite answered this, so I'll give it a go. There are three transitions taught in PMTS. In the clips people are focusing on, Max is doing 2 footed releases, which I think is what you call a retraction turn.

The second kind of transition is the "super phantom" one footed release, in which only the old outside leg is flexed. That transfers pressure to the new stance leg before that skis changes edges. I think the two are used about equally often, depending on circumstances.

The third is the "weighted release", in which the old outside ski is kept weighted until after it changes edges.
Thanks, Simon. That jives with my understanding of the PMTS transitions. Seems lately there's a big focus on 2 footed retractions, as evidenced by this drill Max is working on. From what I've gathered from speaking with Max, this is the transiton he's looking to use for the majority (dare I say all, Max?) of his turns, be they arc to arc, or pivoted. I was starting to get the feeling there's been a fundimental shift in the system, as I don't know what "circumstances" would dictate the use of your second transition type (the one footed, super phantom transition).

BTW,,, type 2 would be similar to what is also called OLR (outside leg relaxation), which has a similar outcome to ILE.

What throws me, though, is Max's description of the transition's he's demonstrating in his video in this thread:

Quote:
Maybe I don't understand the question, but when you release by flexing the old stance leg and begin your counter balancing, the pressure automatically goes over to the outside ski as the inside leg keeps flexing, during, past and into the high C of the new arc.
That sounds more like your description of the type 2 one footed release, not a retraction release which lightens both feet, the type typically displayed in WC race courses by the PMTS poster boy and technical model Rocca. 90 percent of Rocca's race course transitions are 2 footed retractions. Max say's he's trying to ski like Rocca, yet says his retracted transitions create new outside ski engagement prior to neutral. I'm sensing mixed messages born of confused understanding here.
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post #646 of 1165
4/19/07 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Greg, I was referring to the Ligety link Rick posted and I believe BigE was referencing.
Oh... I thought you were referring to Max. In the Ligety photo it is pretty clear that he used his upper body to do a slight pivot entry to the turn. Interestingly, you see his upper body facing down the hill the entire time, even when his skis are nearly perpendicular to the fall line. That however, is likely a topic for another 20 page thread...

Later

GREG
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post #647 of 1165
4/19/07 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I'm very sure, Max.

I've explained the physics of this many times, but I understand it goes over most heads. If you completely remove the base of support you colapse into the snow, because that is where the forces are trying to move you.

If, on the other hand, you simply alter the location of the central base of support point away from the balance point, you will experience a turn force driven pendulum over that altered central point of support which carries the CM laterally into the new turn. It's the principle that makes both ILE and OLR work.
Rick, could you please point me to the [original] explanations you are referring to?
It definitely goes over my head

In my mind, if the forces are considered applied toward the COM and you flex the foot you increase the effective radius and therefore decrease the centripetal force. If you were in balance before you start flexing, decreasing the centripetal force will trow you out of the existing turn in the direction of the new turn.
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post #648 of 1165
4/19/07 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I was starting to get the feeling there's been a fundimental shift in the system, as I don't know what "circumstances" would dictate the use of your second transition type (the one footed, super phantom transition).
I hope we will hear from Max as he has had more direct exposure to HH than anyone. It has also been somewhat elusive to me also about when is an appropriate situation to use the super-phantom vs a weighted release.

In my view a full retraction turn is a different beast and its pretty obvious when you are needing or wanting more of a cross-under to happen to quickly get from one extreme side to the other very fast.

Quote:
BTW,,, type 2 would be similar to what is also called OLR (outside leg relaxation), which has a similar outcome to ILE.
Without a doubt PMTS avoids ILE. When I skied with HH it was one of the main things he hammered on me about. I'm still experimenting with it. I think I am comfortable using a bit more ILE than HH would like to see. However I do have this to say, its perhaps easy to extend too quickly with ILE; which might result in some loss of edging during the top part of the turn, or much worse if the skier is not aware of what they are doing they may very likely up-unweight and/or heel push.

Its also very easy to not Release quickly enough with OLR, which creates a blocking situation. So while I think most times it makes sense to use both, I also think it makes a lot of sense to have a mental focus on restricting the ILE and going for more OLR in general. I don't think its all or nothing. If you have a high degree of awareness over these issues you can use ILE quite well without the problems that HH seems to want to steer people clear of by avoiding ILE altogether.
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post #649 of 1165
4/19/07 at 4:52pm
i just hope someone will tell me where HH teaches private lessons
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post #650 of 1165
4/19/07 at 5:20pm
Borntoski683, you are not alone. The situation with proper leg flexion/extention is something that I am having a hard time getting straight. I was out experimenting with it last weekend, and even when I was concentrating on it, I was still having a hard time getting it right. I think it's a case of old habits that are hard to shake, going back to the days of straight skis, when a more pronounced up movement, or outside leg extention, was common.
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post #651 of 1165
4/19/07 at 5:30pm
Mac,

Well what you describe for yourself is the case for many people and part of the reason why I think HH is trying to get people to avoid ILE. There are many people up-unweighting that don't even realize it.

I can actually do the turns on demand the way HH would like to see them. When I say I'm still experimenting, I mean I have not decided whether or not I like using a pure OLR. My preference right now is NOT pure but a blending of ILE and OLR with more or less of each depending on the situation. When I stop thinking about it and just ski, I definitely use some amount of ILE. I could probably stand to blend a bit more OLR into my skiing in certain situations.

As I said before, its very easy IMHO to over do ILE and under do OLR. Getting a feel of finese for how much ILE and OLR to use is a bit of an art and just takes a lot of time. Its no wonder that PMTS directs people towards OLR instead of ILE. In some ways, having a bias towards OLR is just perhaps more reliable without those high level skills.
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post #652 of 1165
4/19/07 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
Rick, could you please point me to the [original] explanations you are referring to?
It definitely goes over my head

In my mind, if the forces are considered applied toward the COM and you flex the foot you increase the effective radius and therefore decrease the centripetal force. If you were in balance before you start flexing, decreasing the centripetal force will trow you out of the existing turn in the direction of the new turn.
Hey, Hobbit, it's been a while. Hope you had a good season. Check out this article: it should give you a start on understanding what I'm talking about.
http://modernskiracing.com/balance.php

And here's a photo I pulled out of the article for quick reference. Perhaps it will provide you a quick answer, without having to comprehend all the information I share in that article.

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2...e-width-A.html

If Hermann were to relax both legs at this moment his CM would not follow the path of the blue arrow, as many people believe. It would actually follow the path of the green arrow, and slam into the snow.
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post #653 of 1165
4/19/07 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Thanks, Simon. That jives with my understanding of the PMTS transitions. Seems lately there's a big focus on 2 footed retractions, as evidenced by this drill Max is working on. From what I've gathered from speaking with Max, this is the transiton he's looking to use for the majority (dare I say all, Max?) of his turns, be they arc to arc, or pivoted. I was starting to get the feeling there's been a fundimental shift in the system, as I don't know what "circumstances" would dictate the use of your second transition type (the one footed, super phantom transition).
There's certainly a lot of focus on flexion during transition in PMTS coaching this year. I can't speak to how this varies relative to previous years, but its a slightly different focus from that in the ACBAES books. The general idea seems to be that its better to flex the old free leg rather than extending it too soon, even if what you're aiming for is basically a super-phantom/OLR type of transition.

I don't know what the offical line on when to use the different transitions is, but personally I'd use a two footed release in soft snow to keep the skis floating, or if I was aiming for a very short "brushed" turn, but the one footed release if I was carving arc-to-arc as at least for me it gets the new edge engaged quicker. It would be an interesting question to post over in the Other Place, I think
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post #654 of 1165
4/19/07 at 6:08pm
BTS,,, you're right about the risk of overdoing the extension part of ILE. In reality, the amount of actual extension that needs to take place to make the tactic work is so nill it can't be seen by the naked eye. All that needs to be done is to lightly push down on the old inside foot until pressure is felt on the base of that foot, then go along for the ILE cross-over ride.

Believe it or not,,, it's not actually that hard to teach, once the concept is understood, and with a decent demo of what it's really suppose to look like. And the refinement phase is fun,,, when you begin experimenting with rate of pressure transfer, and discovering how that changes the nature of the transition. What a feeling when you slow it waaaaay down.

But ILE or OLR,,, not a big issue for me. There are significant sensation differences between the two, and to me the benefits fall on the ILE side pretty clearly, but the bottom line outcomes are generally the same so if HH is skittish of ILE and wants to stay clear, it's not a major dilemma. Just seems a shame for his students to miss out on an option others enjoy having.
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post #655 of 1165
4/19/07 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
There's certainly a lot of focus on flexion during transition in PMTS coaching this year. I can't speak to how this varies relative to previous years, but its a slightly different focus from that in the ACBAES books. The general idea seems to be that its better to flex the old free leg rather than extending it too soon, even if what you're aiming for is basically a super-phantom/OLR type of transition.

I don't know what the offical line on when to use the different transitions is, but personally I'd use a two footed release in soft snow to keep the skis floating, or if I was aiming for a very short "brushed" turn, but the one footed release if I was carving arc-to-arc as at least for me it gets the new edge engaged quicker. It would be an interesting question to post over in the Other Place, I think
Simon, thanks again for another very clear response. You write very well. Making yourself understood in this environment of technical mumbo jumbo is no easy task.

Thanks for the confirmation that what I was suspecting is what you've been observing. And for what it's worth, your application of the various PMTS transitions seems pretty sound to me.
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post #656 of 1165
4/19/07 at 6:30pm
Seems as though we have a lot in common. I mirror pretty much what you just said. I can do it when I put my mind to it, but to be honest, I was thinking it over when I was making a conscious effort to do it regularly last weekend, and I came to the conculsion that I just like the old way better. I don't have a big up unweighting or lunging movement. I flex the inside leg and at the same time I consciously extend the outside leg to exert pressure on the new stance ski, but I'm careful to keep it to a minimum. I think that any extention of the outside leg will probably cause a slight upward movement, and probably delay the engagement of the new stance ski. But then again, I'm just a student of the sport, so it gives me another in a long list of things to try and improve on.
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post #657 of 1165
4/19/07 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Oh... I thought you were referring to Max. In the Ligety photo it is pretty clear that he used his upper body to do a slight pivot entry to the turn. Interestingly, you see his upper body facing down the hill the entire time, even when his skis are nearly perpendicular to the fall line. That however, is likely a topic for another 20 page thread...

Later

GREG
Greg,

Are you sure that the Ligety's pivot entry is dirven by the upper body or is it driven by a differential foot pull back?

If you are to analyse the movments using PMTS goggles, things appear to be very different. Here is the key:

PMTS allows only for the rotation afforded by the movements; no additional source of rotation is allowed.

Now I will be the first to admit that Ligety is no PMTS poster child, as his technique has been dismissed by HH. I am merely offering a different interpretation/analysis of his movement pattern.

As Rick says, "a pivot is a pivot".

What matters to PMTS is whether or not the pivot he displays can be made without added rotation driven by the upper body. In short whether the tensions and bodily movements afforded by PMTS can generate the outcomes you see.
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post #658 of 1165
4/19/07 at 6:54pm
In that ligety montage I would have to agree with others that its anticipation driving the pivot.
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post #659 of 1165
4/19/07 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
BigE, why do the feet need pulled back? Isn't the core already on a path that will put it down hill from the feet?
Ligety is so far back, that he's got to recenter very quickly. The inertial path of the CM is not enough, especially as the tails of the skis are loaded to jet away from under him.

Pay special attention to the path of the CM.
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post #660 of 1165
4/19/07 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
In that ligety montage I would have to agree with others that its anticipation driving the pivot.
Can't you generate that anticipated position by pulling the new inside ski back hard, and not counteracting while tipping and counterbalancing?

Translation: pulling the inside ski back will move the uphill hip and shoulder forwards, rotating the upper body into the turn. Note that the rotational axis is between the feet. Not performing a counteracting movement means applying insufficient counter, so that the tipping movement does not result an edge lock. The counterbalance assists tipping to assert the carve after the pivot( angulation via rotation of the femur in the hip socket).

Why not?
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