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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 3

post #61 of 1165
MAX-

When I was coaching elite racers, I used to enjoy the occasional PB+J sandwich. My athletes (foreign country) thought it was the most disgusting thing they had ever seen consumed! I finally got really tired of their comments and challenged them to try one.

I took the most vocal of them all, made him a sandwich, and told him that if he ate the whole thing, and still thought it disgusting, they could say what they wanted. But if not, the comments were to stop. This kid ate the sandwich, and then proceeded to eat 2 more. At least he was open enough to try something different.

You have asked me for my input, and clarification. Are you willing to openly and honestly try the things I might suggest? Or will you simply deny they have any validity? If so, we are both wasting our time.

But if you are willing to put down the KoolAid (joke) for a minute, and take a bite of a sandwich, then I'm game to expand on everything I posted.
post #62 of 1165
Max_501: So why don't I look effortless when I ski? Most likely because I don't 'own' all of the movements yet, so it might look like I'm trying harder than it should because I'm over emphasizing some of them to get them into my system

I am glad you are point out the emphasis that is sometimes required to eventually own a movement. This really makes sense to me and explains a lot of what I see. Good stuff no matter how you analyze this.
post #63 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
MAX-

When I was coaching elite racers, I used to enjoy the occasional PB+J sandwich. My athletes (foreign country) thought it was the most disgusting thing they had ever seen consumed! I finally got really tired of their comments and challenged them to try one.

.
On the other hand, if you had stopped eating that glop and tried what these foreigners ate, you might have improved your diet!
post #64 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
You have asked me for my input, and clarification. Are you willing to openly and honestly try the things I might suggest? Or will you simply deny they have any validity? If so, we are both wasting our time.
I asked for your clarification to try to understand your point of view. But to be fair, I didn't ask for MA on this video. I posted it as an example of PMTS skiing because others have mentioned that there is alot of talk from PMTSers but no visual examples (other than HH) of PMTS skiing.

Ric, you are a good guy and obviously know your stuff. However, its clear that you'd like to take me in a direction that is counter to the direction I am headed. As I wrap up my 6th season of serious skiing I'm happy with the path I am currently on (even though my skiing has much room for improvement). So, to be completely honest with you, no, I won't be making changes that would conflict with what I'm learning from Harald Harb. After all, I want to ski like Harald so it would be wise to continue to follow his directions.

All that said, your MA is a great example of the difference between a PSIA influenced approach and PMTS. On Epic we often hear that they are really the same but your MA makes it clear that they are not. Heck, we don't even see the same things in the skiing!
post #65 of 1165
Max, with all due respect, you don't have the same vocabulary. Your understanding of the words are very different.
post #66 of 1165
VSP,

You took a lot of time to put your MA together and your comments about the PB+J sandwich is a good one. However, in all fairness, Max did not ask for MA when he posted the video.

There is always going to be a lot of opportunity to find the differences between PMTS and everyone else. Some of the differences are actual differences, some are perceptions. Some are going to be based on the fact that Max is still a developing student of PMTS and skiing in general.

What I find really interesting about this video is that it represents truly what a PMTS student will look like after spending several hundred days of skiing almost exclusively studying PMTS. It does not represent the end goal. Max has put as much time and energy as anyone I know in the pursuit of skiing excellence.....albeit sticking to very strictly within the PMTS framework, which he feels works for him. I don't think I ever heard Max declare himself to be an expert, though I would also not neccessarily agree with your assessment that he is somehow not an expert skier. What exactly defines that term anyway?

I feel he will eventually get to the level of skiing that perhaps you ski at(we haven't seen you), simply because of the level of effort and focus he is making. I give Max nothing but the biggest kudos for presenting this video to us for all to see his progress, not to mention the amount of dedication he has put into learning how to ski.

ps - I am 100% in agreement with you about the comment you made about ARCING and CARVING. That is one reason PMTS calls it "bushed carving", for exactly the reason you pointed out. Carving is carving, even if there is some skidding also happening to a limited degree. Its not black or white. This issue has been debated on this forum to death a bunch of times and we never all agree. Some people seem bent on taking the name "carve" away from anyone that is not railing arcs.
post #67 of 1165
Newfy-

"On the other hand, if you had stopped eating that glop and tried what these foreigners ate, you might have improved your diet!"

This from a person who's country came up with PUTINE? hahahah

MAX-

So be it. Since I was late getting into your video, as compared to the dozens of other comments made about your video, I made the assumption that placing it on the board was a tacit request for comment. Like I said- it would be a pleasure to work with someone of your basics, because I do believe you have the potential to become a very good skier.

Ask HH what he thinks of some of my comments. Maybe (maybe not) he may feel that there is something valid to my comments.

But remember- there is much in skiing you can learn, but can not be taught.

BTS-

It really didn't take much time at all! What's obvious, is obvious. And that didn't take much to see.

None of my comments were based on any particular philosophy of skiing, except my own understanding, developed by working with WC racers over a long period of time. If you ask many of the people I have skied with from this board, you will find I am not committed to any system.

So when I watched Max's video- I did not view it from a context of PMTS or PSIA. Just from the point of view of good skiing. It has some of the elements of good skiing, and it is missing a few as well.

As far as Max being an expert skier... by his own statement of it not being as effortless as he would like it to be, and that he does not yet 'own' the movements he is working on, these comments make that case. He is good, but he is not an expert.

I hope none of my comments made about Max's skiing are misconstrued as being disrespectful.
post #68 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I don't think I ever heard Max declare himself to be an expert, though I would also not neccessarily agree with your assessment that he is somehow not an expert skier. What exactly defines that term anyway?
Easy.

Harald Harb = Expert.

Max does not = Harald Harb.

Therefore Max is not an expert.
post #69 of 1165
Good skiing, no doubt about it.

I didn't read all the previous postings. It may have been an exercise with a special goal, but in some runs the absorbing (flexing) you do, doesn't look natural. It looks te me that you are absorbing the energy in these turns instead of using it. It looks like a forced absorption one would exercise in the bumps, but not on a groomed slope.
post #70 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Ask HH what he thinks of some of my comments. Maybe (maybe not) he may feel that there is something valid to my comments.
I already did. He disagreed with the bulk of your MA.
post #71 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
I didn't read all the previous postings. It may have been an exercise with a special goal, but in some runs the absorbing (flexing) you do, doesn't look natural. It looks te me that you are absorbing the energy in these turns instead of using it. It looks like a forced absorption one would exercise in the bumps, but not on a groomed slope.
My guess is you are talking about the deep flex shown while carving. The goal was to bend the legs to 90 degrees to show the range of motion available in the the legs.
post #72 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Easy.

Harald Harb = Expert.

Max does not = Harald Harb.

Therefore Max is not an expert.
Does this mean that Harald is the only expert skier anywhere? It's always possible to get better. Even experts have room for improvement. Undoubtebly, Harald is near the top of "expert skier-dom", but just because somebody is not quite his equal doesn't imply that they aren't an expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I already did. He disagreed with the bulk of your MA.
I'm curious. I only "know" Harald through his postings on the RealSkiers site where he makes it clear he's not a big PSIA fan. Did Harald know what the source of the MA provided by VSP was?
post #73 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
Does this mean that Harald is the only expert skier anywhere? It's always possible to get better. Even experts have room for improvement. Undoubtebly, Harald is near the top of "expert skier-dom", but just because somebody is not quite his equal doesn't imply that they aren't an expert.
I never said HH is the only expert. I didn't even imply it. I just gave Borntoski a formula to figure out if Max is an expert.

The problem with taking advice from VSP is that it conflicts with advice from HH. HH wants me more forward (foot pullback) yet VSP thinks I'm too far forward. Even the timing of the pole plants and flex is different. Its an either or situation.

Yes, Harald knows the source of the MA.
post #74 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post

So when I watched Max's video- I did not view it from a context of PMTS or PSIA. Just from the point of view of good skiing.
Exactly! Good skiing is determined by moving effectively. Period!
Discussions about f or e are irrelevant. The conditions determine what's most effective, not a phylosophy. Any movement that doesn't serve the goal of bending the ski at the right time and releasing it at the right time, affects the skiing in a negative way.
post #75 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The problem with taking advice from VSP is that it conflicts with advice from HH. HH wants me more forward (foot pullback) yet VSP thinks I'm too far forward. Even the timing of the pole plants and flex is different. Its an either or situation.

Yes, Harald knows the source of the MA.
You might be making a misstake here Max since VSP really doesent speak for any specific system. There are things that apply to all skiing no matter what kind of system. I know that since Im fortunate enough to have been professionally aquainted with lots of different systems. VSP's comment on the poleplant forinstance only makes me qurious.

I also dont see the conflict. HH wants you forward for some reason. VSP wants you back for some other reason. I would try to figure out why!
post #76 of 1165
Max: Interesting discussion here! A few observations and questions:

I believe there is often a misunderstanding of the concept of "Get forward." Semantics can often mean the difference between a successful lesson and one which is not. Some people hear a coach suggest they "get forward" and translate it to thinking it means leaning with all their might against the top of their cuffs throughout the turn. Rather than moving them into the turn, this actually unweights the tail of the ski and prevents a clean movement of the ski through the snow. It also eliminates the ability of the skier to make subtle adjustments needed throughout the turn as all available forward movement in the boots has already been used up and locks the skier into one position. Your comment that you start on the ball of the foot may be part of the reason you tend to slide your tails when, perhaps, you DON'T want to, as opposed to having the tips of the skis lead the way throughout the turn. In the era of straight skis, racers would often use a "rocking" motion similar to the one you describe: moving from the ball at the beginning of the turn toward the back of the foot at the end of the turn. This has been replaced today in many high-end skiers by striving to maintain a balance point at the strongest anatomical point of the foot, which is the back of the arch/front of the heel. If you follow your leg bones down into the snow, you'll find they pass through the ankle. It might be interesting if you tried staying planted on this spot for a series of turns and in what we call a "cuff neutral" position; i.e., no excess pressure on either the front or the back of the cuff. If your cuff angle is appropriate (not too upright), you will still be able to move ahead (forward) into the turn using such techniques as short leg/long leg and movement of your CM, but you will be in better balance and able to make adjustments throughout. See what Harald thinks of that!

All the best!
Mike
post #77 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
You might be making a misstake here Max since VSP really doesent speak for any specific system.
Are you saying you haven't noticed the PSIA influence in his posts (I'm not saying its a bad thing just that it can conflict with the path I'm on). BTW, VSP is a PSIA Level 3/Examiner.
post #78 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Your comment that you start on the ball of the foot may be part of the reason you tend to slide your tails when, perhaps, you DON'T want to, as opposed to having the tips of the skis lead the way throughout the turn.
Uh...I never said I get on the ball of the foot (in fact, I pointed out why its bad). I said I like to vary pressure from slightly in front of the arch to slightly behind the arch (or slightly in front of the heel). This is what happens when the skis slice around a stable upper body. If you aren't doing that you might want to give it a try.
post #79 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
Can you tell me how I can determine when my students are intentionally using controlled brushing and when they are skidding?

BK
post #80 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
Can you tell me how I can determine when my students are intentionally using controlled brushing and when they are skidding?
Bode, if you are teaching your students to do a brushed carve with PMTS movements it will be obvious when they are doing it incorrectly. Are they rotating their hips and upper body into the turn? Are then pushing their tails out to the side? Are they using a pole plant that reinforces proper upper body counter movements? Etc...
post #81 of 1165
For some reason this thread reminds me alot of another one. Although max is not quite as edgey as Highwaystar was.
post #82 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
Can you tell me how I can determine when my students are intentionally using controlled brushing and when they are skidding?
Very interesting question Bode. What is a brushed carve? I'll let max give us the official PMTS description, but back to your point...you are asking more generally(not specific to PMTS)...is it possible to have a carve-like turn and have a skidding component at the same time. A PMTS brushed carve does have a skidding component to it. its not an all or nothing thing.

why don't we consult with a veteran Pro:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
ARCING is the process of a ski leaving only its edge mark in the snow, with tail following tip.



CARVING is minimizing excessive skidding.

To give a new definition to the fact the skis are moving sidewards, as well as forward.... I find this amusing as well.... I accept that in many turns, arcing is not possible, or even desireable. I can still define it as carving, provided I have eliminated the excessive (not necessarily ALL) skidding from the turn. Its all a matter of degree and intent.
VSP, I have tried to cover this point several times in the past year and nobody gets it. Maybe you will be able to provide a better explanation of what can distinctly mark the difference between a turn that has a skidding component to it, but can still be considered a form of carving...compared to another turn which also has a skidding component to it, but is just not worthy of being associated with carving. Bode would like to know how he can spot the difference.

Bode, from my perspective, its not easy to tell if you don't know what you're looking for. This is the reason I think many people take the highly simplistic view that if there is any skidding involved, then the turn is not carved in their view. There is a lot more that you need to look at to determine whether a skier is using their sidecut to create a round turn, versus swinging their tails. Both things have a skidding component, but one is not worthy of being associated with carving. IMHO, you can't even look merely at tail displacement. I have seen some people in the past argue that a PMTS brushed carve is when tip and tail are skidding at the same rate side ways. Ok, maybe they are drifting like that and maybe not. But I still claim that tail displacement that creates a bit more of a fanned round turn is still worthy of being called a brushed carve or scarve or whatever the heck you want to call it to feel good about yourself.......IF......it possess the following characteristic:

Does the skier obtain edge engagement and a curved path in the high-C section of the turn? No? Are they swishing their tails past the fall line and then engaging them, creating more of a z line down the hill? Many more things. I hope VSP will expound.

PMTS uses the term brushed carving because they focus on the "movements" that are the same movements used for carving except for with less edge angle(resulting in a bit of skidding). But the movements are the same.

They focus on the movements that will result in fast arcing if you want; or speed control if you want, all with the very same movements, the only difference being the finesse application of how much edge angle you obtain.

Brushed carving or scarving, whatever you want to call it...in my view is one of the more difficult and elegant things to truly master in skiing. Carving a perfect arc on many snow surfaces, is actually easier, as it doesn't require the same level of finesse. Though maintaining a pure arc on other snow surfaces and slopes begins to become extremely technical and difficult.

The movements used to swish the tails are not the same. Those movements do provide speed control but they will never provide carving and their speed control is not smooth. It is speed-up-slow-down-speed-up-slow-down. A scarved or brushed carve turn where you obtain high-C skidding is the ultimate form of speed control because you are able to apply controlled friction during the entire length of the turn, not just the last 1/2 of the turn. With tail swishing, the first half of the turn they are floating in space, pivoting their skis, swinging their tails and hurrying to get past the fall line where they hope to engage their edges and slow the heck down again. That kind of skidding is not worthy of the word "carve".

Carving should be equated to using your sidecuts to make the skis turn as opposed to using your legs to make them turn. Can there be a skidding component in that? Emphatically YES. The questions is, Bode, are your MA skills good enough to tell the difference?
post #83 of 1165
You are comparing Max to HS? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard to date on this forum.
post #84 of 1165
Max,

Definitely looks like fun skiing! Ooooo baby.

Is lifting the tip of the inside ski on your left turns part of the BPST or is it a byproduct of your focus on pulling back your feet?

Do I need to capture stills? Blip does not show the time in the viewer. I captured the stream, converted it to an .avi file, viewed it in V1 and noted the following turns:
0:22:13
0:25:15
0:27:10
0:29:00
0:34:21
0:36:11
0:39:08*
0:42:16
1:05:20
2:03:05
2:18:12
2:25:05
2:26:21
2:35:01
2:39:15
2:41:22
2:43:19
2:45:15
2:47:08
3:00:14
3:04:02
3:07:17
3:11:09
3:15:05
3:17:21
3:26:24
3:37:05
3:40:23
3:48:19

I'm asking because you don't do it on every left turn and don't do it all on your right turns. Most of the examples are fairly subtle, but a few are pretty obvious.
post #85 of 1165
Max in the medium turns your turn shape has a consistant arc and look awesome. The spacing of the feet is wider in those also. The shorter turns look a bit slipped by purpose and then it looks like more pressure is applied and they arc out in the end. This would be consistant for a mogul feild. Was this an exercise in differing edging or is this a demonstration of two differant type of turns? On your header you say these are the same turns. What am I not understanding ? The first half of the two turns is much differant.
post #86 of 1165
Max, you're right; I misread your post when you said, "I'm actually trying to get just a hair forward of the arch." Not the strongest part of the foot, but definitely better than the ball. If you feel the rest of my post has no application in your case, feel free to discount it. I think it may well be valid for many other skiers.
post #87 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
You are comparing Max to HS? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard to date on this forum.
I think that all the content in tdk6's "How to respond to MA" thread could be paraphrased as "We all have a little Highway Star in us."
post #88 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Is lifting the tip of the inside ski on your left turns part of the BPST or is it a byproduct of your focus on pulling back your feet?
Its a byproduct of alignment. I track 4 degrees to the outside on my right foot. During the week we were playing around with different amounts of canting.

I put the 2nd clip in the video to see if anyone would notice this particular movement as its fairly noticeable in a few places. To the casual observer it looks like a mistake. But to someone trained in alignment it should be clear that something has changed in that clip compared to some of the others. Can you tell what it is?

BTW, pulling the foot back while lifting puts the tip on the ground.
post #89 of 1165
Thread Starter 
For those of you that think I'm being defensive with regards to my skiing...if you have the time perhaps you could go back and have another look at what I've written. You'll notice that I have not once stated that its good skiing, great skiing, or anything of the sort. I'm my harshest critic by far. When I watch these video clips I see some ok skiing marred by countless errors.

The video was filmed by Harald. Its fair to say that I am fully aware of every nuance of my skiing shown in these clips as HH and I have MA'd them many times. You'll note that my responses are either clarifications or comments regarding what I perceive to be misinterpretations of the skiing movements shown in the clips.

As I stated before I think that VSP's MA is interesting as it points out some differences in view between a PSIA pro and a PMTS pro (Harald).

The video has been posted as an example of what PMTS movements look like when performed by a skier other than Harald (a request made on Epic many times over the years).
post #90 of 1165
Actually Max, I think you are one of the least (maybe the very least) defensive MA recipients here. I was tempted by (what I thought was) a good line into taking a cheap shot. I apologize.
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